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View Poll Results: Should Gourd Dance be a male-only dance?
Yes 30 76.92%
No 3 7.69%
I don't have anything to do with Gourd Dance, but I think females should be able to dance. 1 2.56%
I don't have anything to do with Gourd Dance, but I think only males should dance. 4 10.26%
I don't know. 1 2.56%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

Forum Home - Go Back > Pow Wow Arena > Men's Dance Styles > Gourd Dance Should Gourd Dance be a male-only dance? Should Gourd Dance be a male-only dance?

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Old 01-04-2009, 07:38 PM   #21
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I went to a dance here in the City yesterday
It was at what we call the Kitchen and its a really nice place to have a powwow
Large sweeping roof all wooden
We had 4 center drums set up with backup singers going all the way around the drum

When all the gourd dancers were dancing we encompassed the whole arena perhaps 75 to 100 gourd dancers
Along the outer perimeter were women dancing and they too encompassed the whole arena

As I was dancing I would occasionally reflect on this thread about the question we are posing "should the Gourd Dance be a Male only Dance"
And the answer was right there on the Floor!!!
IT will be as long as we who dance, pass on that Tradition to our younger ones.
As it was yesterday
IT was being demonstrated every time we danced over and over

Men have there part and the Women have there part
To hear the mens voices leading the song and then the women's voices soaring in
To hearing the sounds of so many gourds and to see the young boys and young girls being taught the ways of this dance.
Another generation is growing up around this dance young and old
We have elders in there 90's standing and dancing alongside my great friends nephew who is 8 and fully dresses in his Kiowa clothes when he gourd dances.

I am sure that some will come on here and post that no its too late

To that I say its a NON Issue here in Oklahoma
After all it is the birthplace of the Gourd Dance and I must say its alive and well
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:01 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
I went to a dance here in the City yesterday
It was at what we call the Kitchen and its a really nice place to have a powwow
Large sweeping roof all wooden
We had 4 center drums set up with backup singers going all the way around the drum

When all the gourd dancers were dancing we encompassed the whole arena perhaps 75 to 100 gourd dancers
Along the outer perimeter were women dancing and they too encompassed the whole arena

As I was dancing I would occasionally reflect on this thread about the question we are posing "should the Gourd Dance be a Male only Dance"
And the answer was right there on the Floor!!!
IT will be as long as we who dance, pass on that Tradition to our younger ones.
As it was yesterday
IT was being demonstrated every time we danced over and over

Men have there part and the Women have there part
To hear the mens voices leading the song and then the women's voices soaring in
To hearing the sounds of so many gourds and to see the young boys and young girls being taught the ways of this dance.
Another generation is growing up around this dance young and old
We have elders in there 90's standing and dancing alongside my great friends nephew who is 8 and fully dresses in his Kiowa clothes when he gourd dances.

I am sure that some will come on here and post that no its too late

To that I say its a NON Issue here in Oklahoma
After all it is the birthplace of the Gourd Dance and I must say its alive and well
that was a beautiful post
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:44 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopisun43 View Post
but as the elders said, "Do it right, no short cuts".
Really? Did they really say that?

Did it come to you in a vision? Or, perhaps, are you just making up a quote out of fear, due to an inability, lack of desire and/or personal loathing of critical thinking?

I firmly believe that whomever you hold/held up as elders are significantly more pragmatic -- and less romanticized -- about semantics then you are. Why? Culture defines itself. They weren't afraid of change.

Cats out of the bag, baby. Grow up.

Pretty pictures of a single gathering in Oklahoma? At best, over time, that turns into Masada. At worst, it's already gone. It's NOT a "non-issue" in Oklahoma. It's a non-issue to those who don't look or deal in reality. (Although, to some, that could be described as "Oklahoma": the great pan-Indian melting pot.)

It's time for the Big Boy pants.
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:43 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Really? Did they really say that?

Did it come to you in a vision? Or, perhaps, are you just making up a quote out of fear, due to an inability, lack of desire and/or personal loathing of critical thinking?

I firmly believe that whomever you hold/held up as elders are significantly more pragmatic -- and less romanticized -- about semantics then you are. Why? Culture defines itself. They weren't afraid of change.

Cats out of the bag, baby. Grow up.

Pretty pictures of a single gathering in Oklahoma? At best, over time, that turns into Masada. At worst, it's already gone. It's NOT a "non-issue" in Oklahoma. It's a non-issue to those who don't look or deal in reality. (Although, to some, that could be described as "Oklahoma": the great pan-Indian melting pot.)

It's time for the Big Boy pants.
LOL
I was wondering what you were going to say
What I was describing in the Dance I attended yesterday is TYPICAL

Yes Oklahoma is the Melting pot for Ndns
Funny thing Zeke
They all were dancing to the same beat
Young and old
No generation gap

Sure afterwards when the dance was over those same youngsters that had on their best clothes were back in the bluejeans and hats on backwards

I see more young ones sitting at the drum and dancing with me than I have ever seen in the 30 years that I have been dancing

That is the next generation
They are the ones that will teach the generation after them
It is living and breathing thing

Come to Oklahoma Zeke
I know of a Gourd Dance next weekend at Red Buffalo Hall
Or the Weekend after that Celebrating Warren Quetones return from Iraq
I already know of 2 dances in Feb

When something is a rare thing memories fade
I could drive in any direction just about every weekend of the month year round and attend a Gourd Dance and that my friend is alot

If your a Head Singer in Oklahoma you best know Gourd Songs or you wont be asked again

Its alive and well
Dont worry
Dont Fret
We have it well in hand
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Old 01-05-2009, 01:12 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Really? Did they really say that?

Did it come to you in a vision? Or, perhaps, are you just making up a quote out of fear, due to an inability, lack of desire and/or personal loathing of critical thinking?

I firmly believe that whomever you hold/held up as elders are significantly more pragmatic -- and less romanticized -- about semantics then you are. Why? Culture defines itself. They weren't afraid of change.

Cats out of the bag, baby. Grow up.

Pretty pictures of a single gathering in Oklahoma? At best, over time, that turns into Masada. At worst, it's already gone. It's NOT a "non-issue" in Oklahoma. It's a non-issue to those who don't look or deal in reality. (Although, to some, that could be described as "Oklahoma": the great pan-Indian melting pot.)

It's time for the Big Boy pants.
Hahahahaha! Wow Zeke for someone whose boat is sinking, you sure have not figured out how to swim yet have you? I can't believe you of all people have resorted to telling folks to grow up. I have seen 6 year olds put on tantrums like that and guess what? It did not make them right either and it only earned them a spanking.

As for the comment from the elders, I have heard the same thing a number of times. In my experience, many of these people are quite literal when they say these things. You would do well to wrap your mind around it before you dismiss it.

Another reason you are blatantly wrong (I posted a few others in the other thread) is that you tried to make your point that change happens by proposing a change that is so drastic that it would redefine the purpose and nature of gourd dance itself. It would be like saying the NBA will eventually become a game played with sticks like hockey because change is uncontrollable and unavoidable. Saying that over time, uniforms change, rules change or even if there should be a three point line would have better illustrated the point because that would have remained true to the nature of the NBA. Furthermore, all are things that have already happened (that is what we grown ups call proof or evidence). If you understood gourd dance on the most basic level you would have made your point in a different way long ago and people might have agreed. But you didn't and you point is lost. You talk about 'culture defines itself' but there can be no culture without people as we are using it in the context of this conversation. So how can you disregard the people involved in this? I think it is because it does not suit your argument.

It is clear that you can't let it go and are resorting to the tactics that show your true nature. The only cat that is out of the bag is that you let this get personal and you don't appear to have the critical thinking skills to back up what you have to say up with example or proof.



Substance Zeke. Substance.
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Old 01-05-2009, 07:36 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Fat Albert View Post
Substance Zeke. Substance.
Truth.

Truth.

See post #23. (Your relativistic arguments, aside.)

Well written, well thought out, but doesn't hold up, under scrutiny: or time.

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Old 01-05-2009, 08:37 PM   #27
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Actually my Elders have said "If you're gonna do something know what you are doing and do it in the right way." They've gone on to say other things, but that's not for the net really.LOL

I don't see trying to keep traditions the way they have always been as Romantic BS or being Romanticized at all. I see it more as honoring where we come from and how we came to be where we are today in many ways. Yes things have changed over the years to adjust to today's times--clothing and some other things, the outside appearance--not the internal spirit of who we are, but that doesn't mean that all has to change just 'cause someone doesn't like something the way that it is or one or two people think that they can do it better having seen it once or twice or never at all--but just hearing about it.

What I see as Romanticized BS is those (and I have spoke of this before) who attend these dances or anything along these lines and never speak or sit and listen to one of the Elders tell the old stories or how it came to be that way. When people like that walk away and say "That looks easy. I can do that and make a name for myself. People will look up to me then." Now that's romanticized BS in my opinion. Especially those who are not connected to the Nations/Tribes who these dances originated from in the first place.

So just another point here to my way of thinking. Well if women start Gourd dancing, then should men be able then to give birth? I know that's a little different, but I've often thought of that when talking about these things with other people. You know Warrior's are who they are and always have been and that is an important place. But women are meant to be mother's and that's just as equally an important role in society as a Warrior but in a different way. I have said it so many times that as a woman I would really have a problem if men started giving birth. I'm sorry, but that's just the way that I feel about things like this.

I truly believe that many of the children in today's society are screwed up or lost 'cause people have lost their roles and who they truly are and I don't mean NDN or Non-Indian--I mean as Men and Women.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:28 AM   #28
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Zeke's posts are getting smaller and smaller by the post... and its funny to me that you (Zeke) that you have nothing further to say on the subject then "truth"... you should take joe joe up on his invite hell I'd say hello.... open your mind a lil and learn about the gourd dance!
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Old 01-07-2009, 03:41 AM   #29
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Ok there are several posts around here about why can't Women do this male thing or that male thing.

So here is my question to those Women. Why do you want to? Do you think you are being excluded and its just not fair? Have you gone to the Women (with tobacco) and asked whats your role in all this. What about your role here on the outside is so special that your not asking / arguing (etc) to be in the circle with the Men. Have you all ever wondered why so many NDN Women in so many different Nations in so many different traditional settings are content and happy to be (as far as you can tell) on the outside of what the Men are doing? Have you condsidered that the Women are there for a reason that is special, and worthy of maintaining?

Or did you all just barge in and start jumping up and down because you were not included with the Men?

More then one Women here has mentioned that they have a role. This is no surprise to me, because in every instance I have ever come across the Women have their own role, and despite the differences of our Nations that role tends to occur in the same space for the same reasons and once you shut up long enough to listen, and take the time to learn you'll realize that Women in our Nations have special, specific roles that the Men can't fulfill.
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Old 01-07-2009, 01:11 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacO5000 View Post
Zeke's posts are getting smaller and smaller by the post... and its funny to me that you (Zeke) that you have nothing further to say on the subject then "truth"... you should take joe joe up on his invite hell I'd say hello.... open your mind a lil and learn about the gourd dance!
Posting in a thread questioning the same stuff, on a deeper level. You should take a look.

Good, LONG, post there -- directly attributable to this sort of stuff -- but cross-posting seemed lame.

Check it out!

MY mind is open. Perhaps you should get a mirror and look inward?
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Old 01-09-2009, 08:27 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Posting in a thread questioning the same stuff, on a deeper level. You should take a look.

Good, LONG, post there -- directly attributable to this sort of stuff -- but cross-posting seemed lame.

Check it out!

MY mind is open. Perhaps you should get a mirror and look inward?
so negitive.... as usual..... oh well still you avoid the "what do you know bout gourd dancing" question.... your just mad cuz I said you should educate yourself on gourd dance... which you are apparently ignorant of..... joe was being polite and extending an offer to you and I told you that you should take him up on it and you get pissy like a child.... oh well... no skin of my back
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Old 01-09-2009, 01:25 PM   #32
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so negitive....
I don't perceive any negativity, beyond yours.
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Old 01-09-2009, 07:04 PM   #33
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
I don't perceive any negativity, beyond yours.
interestin.... I didn't say anything bout myself being negitive... I was talking bout you.... your like a woman turning it around on me to take the focus off of yourself.... and yes your are closed minded, I say that because if you are so opened minded, then you would check out what gourd dancing is, and what it means to us in "gourd dancing country" to see where it comes from the people who dance it every weekend.... thats what being open minded is... your on the other hand alread know it all.... saying,
Pretty pictures of a single gathering in Oklahoma? At best, over time, that turns into Masada. At worst, it's already gone. It's NOT a "non-issue" in Oklahoma. It's a non-issue to those who don't look or deal in reality. (Although, to some, that could be described as "Oklahoma": the great pan-Indian melting pot. It mind blowing to me... but hey... you the all wise all knowing ZEKE
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:38 AM   #34
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hey... you the all wise all knowing ZEKE
Certainly, I appear to be more self-aware than you.

And?

I don't believe my message has wavered, at all.
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:39 AM   #35
I don't do this for fun!
 
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Quote:
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Certainly, I appear to be more self-aware than you.
at all.
and RIGHTIOUS!!!!
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Old 01-17-2009, 02:49 PM   #36
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I've been away a little while. Been in mourning for quite some time, but I still enjoy coming to P-wow's dot com and checking ya'll out.
This question cracks me up, of course the Gourd Dance is a man's dance.
This Zeke guy cracks me up. He's like one of those 60's protestors who wants people to listen to him whine. Josiah, NDNTaco and WhoMe are all people I have met in real life, not on this virtual website. I've danced with these guys, and that is what makes this argument so silly.
I don't know what the heck relevistic means, and it really doesn't matter. Because Zeke is entertainingistic. It's like listening to Rodney Dangerfield, you can't wait to hear what kind of idiotic statement is going to come next.

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Old 01-17-2009, 05:40 PM   #37
I don't do this for fun!
 
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whats up chris? I thought you fell off man! good to see you postin again.... still around pc area??
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Old 01-17-2009, 08:56 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Kio-Manche View Post
I've been away a little while. Been in mourning for quite some time, but I still enjoy coming to P-wow's dot com and checking ya'll out.
This question cracks me up, of course the Gourd Dance is a man's dance.
This Zeke guy cracks me up. He's like one of those 60's protestors who wants people to listen to him whine. Josiah, NDNTaco and WhoMe are all people I have met in real life, not on this virtual website. I've danced with these guys, and that is what makes this argument so silly.
I don't know what the heck relevistic means, and it really doesn't matter. Because Zeke is entertainingistic. It's like listening to Rodney Dangerfield, you can't wait to hear what kind of idiotic statement is going to come next.

Kio-Manche
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Aho Chris!!
Looking forward to "next" dance!
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Old 01-18-2009, 01:00 AM   #39
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whats up chris? I thought you fell off man! good to see you postin again.... still around pc area??

Hey Taco! Yep, I'm still around the PC area. Last year I worked way too much, and wasn't around much. Things are slowing down for me now though. I been dealing with some personal loss in my life, and it makes you look harder at whats important, and working too much isn't important.
How about you? You still around the PC area?
Chris
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Old 01-19-2009, 04:44 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Kio-Manche View Post
Hey Taco! Yep, I'm still around the PC area. Last year I worked way too much, and wasn't around much. Things are slowing down for me now though. I been dealing with some personal loss in my life, and it makes you look harder at whats important, and working too much isn't important.
How about you? You still around the PC area?
Chris
Yep I'm around... sent you a pm... I don't want everyone knowing my true identity!!! as you know I'm a super hero!! opps!! shhhhh!!! gwah!!!
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