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Old 10-05-2004, 01:52 PM   #21
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Thumbs up

Thank you for your reply. It is refreshing to get an honest answer without first being accused of "stealing" this or that and not being interested in ones own heritage.Gourd dancing is very special and honorable and I admire and respect the Kiowa, and all others who are dancing with a good heart and intentions. I ask these questions inorder to not offend anyone by my ignorance. Intertribal here in N. Cal. is a fact, a reality, and isn't going to go away. So I am trying to learn the correct way to do things. Thanks again for clearing up some questions I had...what a beautiful baby! Way to go!






Quote:
Originally Posted by Numunu1971
Graydog,
I enjoyed reading your post.... seeing how its done elsewhere. I live in N. Oklahoma, grew up in S. Oklahoma, and we do it a bit different here. We generally have benches around the arena where we sit, and we pretty much sit where ever we want. (If one side of the arena happens to have shade, we tend to conglomerate). At many powwows, the drum may be at the side of the arena, so we just move around wherever the spirit moves us too. (Drum stalkers tend to look confused at this) Here, we stay seated during the first song until the drum "steps on it". Then we generally wait for the headsman to start dancing, and if there is no headsman, we start dancing simply when we're ready. I know nothing of the four directional corners, but there is a store on Hwy. 177 that we all call four corners. j/k.
The Buffalo dance is done here usually as the final dance at some powwows. And here in Oklahoma, esp. Carnegie, you will here the wolf howls, and I think that is because this is the birthplace of the gourd dance, and many here understand and know history and the ettiquette of gourd dance, as well as the songs. We have some excellent drums here in Oklahoma, and alot of informed people.
Numunu1971
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Old 10-05-2004, 01:57 PM   #22
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Exclamation

One last question and then I will part ways with you. I read the article you posted about the origins of the gourd dance. Very interesting. I did read where the Red Wolf gave the Kiowa the gourd dance. I didn't read where the Red Wolf said not to share it with other tribes! And if it was only meant for the Kiowa, where did the Kiowa get the right to share it only with others they chose?






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Originally Posted by Zotigh
:)

A gourd dance song without the howl at the end would only be an empty gesture.

Thank you, NDNTacO49.
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Old 10-07-2004, 12:03 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayDog
One last question and then I will part ways with you. I did read where the Red Wolf gave the Kiowa the gourd dance. I didn't read where the Red Wolf said not to share it with other tribes!
So, since the Red Wolf didn't say, "Don't throw children from a moving car", it obviously means he meant for us to do so.

LOL

Weird logic.

You could make any lifestyle you chose from what the Red Wolf did NOT say, bud. And...you are evidently doing so.
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Last edited by Zotigh; 10-07-2004 at 12:27 AM..
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Old 10-07-2004, 12:04 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayDog
...where did the Kiowa get the right to share it only with others they chose?
ROFLOL

"The guy who gives something to someone else....dang...who gave him the right NOT to give it to someone else??!!"

LOL

Again...faulty logic.
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Old 10-07-2004, 12:21 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayDog
One last question and then I will part ways with you.
I have a feeling that this too is not accurate.
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:46 AM   #26
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Societies

I wonder how many gourd dance societies there are? I have done research on the internet, and have come across a few. I looked on the Gathering of Nations website at the pictures from the Gourd dance theyhave there. I seen lots of people wearing hats. Heck, I seen lots of people period. I don't know if I would want to participate in something like that. It just seems too big. How could you hear the dang drum? And I imagine the crowd noise would be bothersome. But then again, I haven't ever been there. Have any of you guys been there?
I enjoy the gourd dancing here in Oklahoma...especially at our homecoming. And the drums here, especially Cozad, I think a good drum makes a big difference. I like that YellowHammer drum too. And NoShame....good stuff....
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Old 11-10-2004, 11:46 AM   #27
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Well, I would like to throw a question in here. Now, this is just a "what do think" question, so don't get upset with me.
I was told, by elders of the Comanche tribe, that the gourd dance and its songs originally belonged to the comanches. I was told that they have societies that dance this dance. My late father in law, Doc Tate Nevaquaya, was instrumental in reviving the Comanche Little Ponies way back when.
Now, I understand that every tribe has its history in reference to this dance and I respect that. I just want to throw out there what I was told. My late father, Ronnie Harris, Sr, was initiated into the Kiowa TiaPiah Society in the early 70's and my adopted dad, Walter Kaulaity is a prominent member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan...so I am familiar with the dance.
Is it true that Comanche had horses before the Kiowas? Give me some feedback please.
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:07 PM   #28
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Thank you for a very informative answer.Thank you for not calling me a theif and understanding that I am just trying to learn. Gourd dancing does exist here in N. Cal. and it is getting more popular every Pow Wow season. I recently spoke to an Otoe-Missourian Elder (Herchel,70's) and he says he was in Oklahoma in the early 50's when gourd was resurrected. Says the beginning members met in his parents basement. Anyways, he's here in N. Cal. and sits as head singer at "Strictly Southern",a drum comprised of all Kiowa singers. Herchel says he follows the Cheyene style and not the Kiowa. He is a much respected Elder out here and often gets angered by some of the "Open" and socieity gourd dancers for not doing gourd in what he says is the proper way. I dance the way he has taught me and the way that I have read about here on the net. I will continue to gourd dance and will do my best to dance it in a way that is traditional,respectful and with honor. Gourd dancing out here is spreading evey year and isn't going to go away. I will continue to try and pass on the teachings I have learned.
Thank you again for your very informative answer...I will dance in this way and will try my best to do so honorable. Thank you again...Wado


Quote:
Originally Posted by Numunu1971
Graydog,
I enjoyed reading your post.... seeing how its done elsewhere. I live in N. Oklahoma, grew up in S. Oklahoma, and we do it a bit different here. We generally have benches around the arena where we sit, and we pretty much sit where ever we want. (If one side of the arena happens to have shade, we tend to conglomerate). At many powwows, the drum may be at the side of the arena, so we just move around wherever the spirit moves us too. (Drum stalkers tend to look confused at this) Here, we stay seated during the first song until the drum "steps on it". Then we generally wait for the headsman to start dancing, and if there is no headsman, we start dancing simply when we're ready. I know nothing of the four directional corners, but there is a store on Hwy. 177 that we all call four corners. j/k.
The Buffalo dance is done here usually as the final dance at some powwows. And here in Oklahoma, esp. Carnegie, you will here the wolf howls, and I think that is because this is the birthplace of the gourd dance, and many here understand and know history and the ettiquette of gourd dance, as well as the songs. We have some excellent drums here in Oklahoma, and alot of informed people.
Numunu1971
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:10 PM   #29
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If something belongs to a collective group (tribe) then shouldn't the collective group be the ones to decide who gives something away! Not an individual. Good logic!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotigh
ROFLOL

"The guy who gives something to someone else....dang...who gave him the right NOT to give it to someone else??!!"

LOL

Again...faulty logic.
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Old 11-10-2004, 07:52 PM   #30
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http://www.powwows.com/gathering/sho...4&postcount=25
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Old 11-10-2004, 08:41 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numunu1971
Graydog,
I enjoyed reading your post.... seeing how its done elsewhere. I live in N. Oklahoma, grew up in S. Oklahoma, and we do it a bit different here. We generally have benches around the arena where we sit, and we pretty much sit where ever we want. (If one side of the arena happens to have shade, we tend to conglomerate). At many powwows, the drum may be at the side of the arena, so we just move around wherever the spirit moves us too. (Drum stalkers tend to look confused at this) Here, we stay seated during the first song until the drum "steps on it". Then we generally wait for the headsman to start dancing, and if there is no headsman, we start dancing simply when we're ready. I know nothing of the four directional corners, but there is a store on Hwy. 177 that we all call four corners. j/k.
The Buffalo dance is done here usually as the final dance at some powwows. And here in Oklahoma, esp. Carnegie, you will here the wolf howls, and I think that is because this is the birthplace of the gourd dance, and many here understand and know history and the ettiquette of gourd dance, as well as the songs. We have some excellent drums here in Oklahoma, and alot of informed people.
Numunu1971
Numunu...thanks for posting. I've never heard it explained so descriptively! Reading your post made me think of the 1 on 1 special that was done for the Head Lady at the Great Saltwater Pow Wow in North Carolina this past weekend.

Thanks for keeping those memories going!

LSS
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Old 11-10-2004, 10:30 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSS
Numunu...thanks for posting. I've never heard it explained so descriptively! Reading your post made me think of the 1 on 1 special that was done for the Head Lady at the Great Saltwater Pow Wow in North Carolina this past weekend.

Thanks for keeping those memories going!

LSS
Your welcome LovesSouthernSinging! By the way, I love Southern Singing as well...:) This Gourd dance threads been quiet for awhile, thought I would shake it like my gourd, get some life back into it ay!
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Old 11-11-2004, 08:51 PM   #33
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Talking

Aye!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-12-2004, 02:07 AM   #34
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Glad we can talk about these things instead of bickering about who has the right to dance and who doesn't.

I think we should educate instead of belittling. Those that probably shouldn't, do. We should just educate them and hope they learn something. Maybe someday they will learn that they aren't doing things right and start.

By the way congrats, WhoMe.
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Old 11-12-2004, 02:16 AM   #35
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Going back to the original idea of this thread....I'd still like to hear what Gourd Societies are out there, and where they obtained their right to the dance from. What relationships there are between eachother.

It'd be interesting to see a how far the branches have grown.
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Old 11-12-2004, 03:58 PM   #36
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Smile

It is good to be able to ask questions and to learn. What's the old saying? "The only dumb question is the one you don't ask".
Here in N. Cal. gourd is getting more popular each year. And it seems different variations are added every year as well. I am learning from a 72 year old Otoe-Missourian. He is very understanding of my questions but accepts me as a Gourd Dancer and is instructing me on the proper. Says "if your gonna do it...do it right". I am honored to be taught by this Elder who is thought very highly of out here. It'd be nice to compare what he teaches to that coming out of Oklahoma. I have received some great info from this thread and am grateful for those who have written me in private and answered my questions without all the name calling. Very classy and honorable. You know who you are and I thank you again. I believe that going to the Elders is probably the best path...still, I'd like to know how it's done in "NDN country"! Keep the thread going...I'm not the only one with questions out here in cyberspace. Wado.




Quote:
Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE
Glad we can talk about these things instead of bickering about who has the right to dance and who doesn't.

I think we should educate instead of belittling. Those that probably shouldn't, do. We should just educate them and hope they learn something. Maybe someday they will learn that they aren't doing things right and start.

By the way congrats, WhoMe.
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Old 08-27-2007, 08:15 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotigh View Post
So, with that in mind, and what has been posted so far....the rough outline would be:

Kiowa Gourd Clan
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Otoe Gourd Society
.........|
.........|
........./ (represents non-sanctioned by the Kiowa Gourd Clan)
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Kiowa Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Texas Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Gulf Coast Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Quapaw Intertribal Gourd Society
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Memphis Tia Piah Big River Clan
.........|
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Oklahoma Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Ponca Gourd Dance Society

Etc, etc, etc...


Still....would be interesting to see the ties.

I know this is an old thread but saw a couple of interesting thing in here

I like to read old threads for there is alot of folks on here who have a lot of knowledge

Ok
Here are some other groups, Who knows where these groups were sanctioned???
Cherokee Gourd Clan
Osage Gourd Clan
White Star Gourd Society
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Old 08-27-2007, 08:56 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
I know this is an old thread but saw a couple of interesting thing in here

I like to read old threads for there is alot of folks on here who have a lot of knowledge

Ok
Here are some other groups, Who knows where these groups were sanctioned???
Cherokee Gourd Clan
Osage Gourd Clan
White Star Gourd Society
I remember as a kid the Omaha Tiah Piah society...in Macy, Nebraska......I heard it was one of the oldest that the Kiowa gave to them...but not sure on that...anybody know?
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Old 08-27-2007, 03:10 PM   #39
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I have two comments.

1. Most tribes used gourds and rattles as intruments to accompany ceremonies. Some tribes even had ceremonies that included dancing with a gourd in hand. Technically, they had "gourd dancing" as a part of their history.


2. Gourd dancing in the southwest definitely rivals gourd dancing in Oklahoma - when you look at "the ratio of dancers in numbers."


Hmmmmm?
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Old 08-27-2007, 08:42 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiowakat View Post
I remember as a kid the Omaha Tiah Piah society...in Macy, Nebraska......I heard it was one of the oldest that the Kiowa gave to them...but not sure on that...anybody know?
Funny you should say that about the Omahas and Tiah Piah
Now this is not proof of any sort so no one freak out!!!!!!
But I ran across this a while back and just filed it in my favorites
here we go: this is the main website page you will notice it is the OFFICIAL LIBRARY OF CONGRESS WEBSITE: Omaha Indian Music

here is some stuff:0379

Photo: 0192

Look at the Hat:LOC Photo Display

0232

This was all taken from the Macy Powwow in 1983

An interesting side note
There are over 300 recordings from this powwow here are some wax cylinder recordings for example:
2031314b

I am kinda partial to the name of one of the singers in this song by the way
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Last edited by Josiah; 08-27-2007 at 09:10 PM..
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