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Old 08-27-2007, 09:09 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Funny you should say that about the Omahas and Tiah Piah
Now this is not proof of any sort so no one freak out!!!!!!
But I ran across this a while back and just filed it in my favorites
here we go: this is the main website page you will notice it is the OFFICIAL LIBRARY OF CONGRESS WEBSITE: Omaha Indian Music

here is some stuff:
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query

Photo: 0192

And the kicker: LOC Photo Display
look at the hat
0232

This was all taken from the Macy Powwow in 1983

An interesting side note
There are over 300 recordings from this powwow here are some wax cylinder recordings for example:
2031314b

I am kinda partial to the name of one of the singers in this song by the way
nice find josiah!, I was there in 76-78 for their pow-wow and they had a couple of inductions....but when did they get the gourd dance from the Kiowa? just curious......
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Old 08-27-2007, 09:36 PM   #42
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I found this group on the internet they are called the Golden State Gourd Society.
here is a Website: Golden State Gourd Society --
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Last edited by Josiah; 08-27-2007 at 09:41 PM..
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Old 08-27-2007, 09:55 PM   #43
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Second Annual Gourd Dance Set For Ponca Tribal Cultural Center
WHITE EAGLE — Members of the Ponca Gourd Dance Society are preparing for their second annual gourd dance to be held Saturday at the Ponca Tribal Cultural Center. Participants from across Oklahoma and from as far away as California are anticipated to be in attendance.

The Ponca Gourd Dance Society is in its second year of reactivation following a period of inactivity after originally being started in the late 1950s and 1960s. In those early days, a certain few members of the Ponca Tribe of Oklahoma traveled to Lawton.

These men were inducted into the Oklahoma Tiah-Piah Society by Nelson Big Bow, a member of the Kiowa Tribe of Oklahoma, thereby giving sanction to the Ponca tribe to perform the gourd dance. Over the past two years, descendants of those original members have worked to revive the Ponca Gourd Dance Society.

At last year’s very successful inaugural gourd dance, Big Bow, then 82 years of age, was in attendance as an honored guest. Leonard Cozad Jr., also a member of the Kiowa Tribe of Oklahoma, conducted ceremonies renewing the sanction of this previously given right and privilege. As a special gift, Cozad composed and presented to the society a special ceremonial song.

The Ponca Gourd Dance Society is honored for this year’s activities to be co-hosted by the Comanche Little Pony Society from the Lawton area. The Little Pony Society (“Teh Da Puku Nu”) is said to have been established by the Quahada band of Comanche a few centuries ago, its membership originally composed of warriors and medicine people. It continues as a warrior society today.

The Ponca Nation and the Comanche Nation have shared dance and song from the times of their first meeting. Some stories say the Comanche gave the Ponca their first horses, and that this action and other contacts between them established a long-lasting friendship and exchange of dance and song. The Ponca have shared the war dance (“Hethuska”) and songs with the Comanche. These special relationships continue today.

This year’s special honored guest will be Franklin Fireshaker from Ojai, Calif. An internationally known artist with paintings in many fine museums, including the Gilcrease Museum here in Oklahoma, and in private collections in Europe, Fireshaker is a respected elder of the Ponca Nation.

Serving in head staff positions include head singer, Leonard Cozad Jr. (Kiowa); head gourd dancer, Jim Roughface (Ponca); head lady dancer, Charisse Satepauhoodle (Kiowa/Osage); MC, the Rev. Thomas Roughface (Ponca); arena director, Kirby Feathers (Ponca); and water carrier, Danny Lee Page (Ponca).

Membership in the Ponca Gourd Dance Society is open to members of the Ponca Tribe of Oklahoma of all ages who participate in the gourd dance and also with other Native American and non-Indian gourd dancers associated with the Ponca Tribe of Oklahoma. The Ponca Gourd Dance Society has extended a hearty welcome and invitation to all other gourd dance organizations, community members and all visitors to come, enjoy and be a part of this celebration.

Doors of the Ponca Tribal Cultural Center will open at noon on Saturday with the afternoon gourd dance starting promptly at 2 p.m. An evening supper will be served at 5:30 p.m. to all in attendance. People are requested to bring their own table service and chairs. Evening activities will resume at 7 p.m. The Ponca Tribal Cultural Center is located 51Ž2 miles south of Ponca City, just west of U.S. 177 in the Ponca tribal community of White Eagle.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright© Ponca City News, 1998






I am always fascinated when I find tidbits of information and when I can find cross references to certain facts
IN this case it says the Oklahoma Tia-Piah sanctioned the Ponca Gourd Dance Society and also the year (1997)
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Last edited by Josiah; 08-27-2007 at 09:57 PM..
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Old 08-27-2007, 10:55 PM   #44
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So Far

Kiowa Gourd Clan
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Otoe Gourd Society
.........|
.........|
........./ (represents non-sanctioned by the Kiowa Gourd Clan)
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Kiowa Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Texas Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Gulf Coast Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Quapaw Intertribal Gourd Society
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Memphis Tia Piah Big River Clan
.........|
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Oklahoma Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Ponca Gourd Dance Society (1997)


Here are the ones that I cant seem to confirm where they go:
Osage Gourd Clan
Cherokee Gourd Clan
Golden State Gourd Society
White Star Gourd Clan
RedStar Gourd Dance Society
Northeast Gourd Dance Clan
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Old 08-27-2007, 10:57 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiowakat View Post
nice find josiah!, I was there in 76-78 for their pow-wow and they had a couple of inductions....but when did they get the gourd dance from the Kiowa? just curious......
Here is an entry i found on a musuem website cant confirm the info yet but....

Gourd dance blanket.
péxe wachígaxe waín. péxe 'gourd', wachígaxe 'dance', waín 'blanket'.

Wool cloth, cotton binding, various medals. Worn by members of the Omaha Tia-Piah Society, a southern plains veteran's dance that was gifted to the Omaha people in the late 1960s from the Kiowa. Veterans often display their combat pins and other medals on the blanket. Initiated into the Omaha Tia-Piah Society in 1973, Awakuni-Swetland displays various academic medals and honors on the blanket.


Omaha Material Culture - Omaha Language Curriculum Development
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Old 08-27-2007, 11:13 PM   #46
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I have a question for Gourd Society Dancers (please forgive me if I am saying it wrong). I was in OK a few years back and my girlfriend whose father is a Tiai-Piah society dancer and we went to one of these dances while I was there. It was wonderful. As I sat there watching all the dancing and listening to what I could hear, he was a few people down from me explaining to his grandson about the dance and where it came from and some of how it started. I couldn't hear all that much, but the bits that I did hear sounded nice to me. I hadn't been to anything like (since I am not from OK)that and it was so nice to see something different.

Now for my question. We have run accross a gentleman who says that he is a Gourd Dancer and stated that for years. Just recently (in the past two years) we find that he says that he is a member of the: Cheyenne/arapahoe Silver Star Hawk Gourd Dance Society and that he was inducted in 1975 in Anadarko, OK. Does this society exist? Someone told us that he goes to Indiana to Gourd Dance and I don't know anythigng about that and my grilfriend doesn't believe it. Just wanted to know from anyone from there is this is actual?
Thanx
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:19 AM   #47
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Josiah

Keep in mind that not all the groups that are called societies are true clans/societies like Kiowa gourd clan. For most of the groups it is not a true ceremonial. As gourd dancing became mainstreamed into Oklahoma powwows group sprang up that did not view the dance the same as Kiowa gourd clan. There are many groups around the country and even in Oklahoma that are more like powwow club than societies. I think these groups could have chosen better terms than clan or society to have in their names since that implies a ceremonial to me, but hey they never ask my opinion. They are made up of people that enjoy gourd dancing and want to promote it. Many of the groups are tax exempt organizations that provide aid to others. White star for example works every year to collect funds that it donates to a Kiowa education fund that provides college scholarships for Kiowa kids that are attending or planning to attend University.

Are all these groups sanctioned by the Kiowa... I very seriously doubt it. Are they accepted and welcomed by the Kiowa...by some Kiowa yes and others no. I know White star has been ask to Co Host dances in Oklahoma with other Kiowa groups, but to my knowledge it is not a "sanctioned" group.

Also keep in mind that other tribes claim to be originators of the dance and have promoted it's spreading as well. I doubt these groups/clan/societies ask the Kiowa if it is ok to give the dance to others.

just some food for thought
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My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.
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Old 08-28-2007, 04:33 AM   #48
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Societies?

from what's been told to me and many other Kiowa's, our dance has a very serious meaning to our lives as Kiowa. Other tribes again claim sort of origination which is a misnomer and only the Kiowas are the sole owners of this dance and song. i'm not going into detail why, but like i've stated in other post on this website, THIS IS A KIOWA DANCE! HAS BEEN SINCE THE CREATION OF TIME OF OUR PEOPLE WHEN THEY DWELLED IN THE CANANDIAN ROCKIES AND NORTHERN TERRITORY OF MONTANA. IT WASN'T GIVEN TO ANY OTHER TRIBE BUT THE KIOWAS, IN THE LATTER YEARS THROUGH PEACE WITH OTHER TRIBES THIS DANCE WAS GIVEN TO SHOW THEIR BROTHERHOOD AND ALLIANCE AND THIS IS WHERE ALOT OF YOU PEOPLE MISUNDERSTAND AND TAKE THIS OUT OF CONTEXT THAT OTHER TRIBES HAD THIS DANCE. WHEN THE KIOWA'S BACK THEN MEANT FOR THIS DANCE TO BE TAKEN CARE OF PROPERLY AND ORDERLY MANNER BUT THEN THE YOUNGER GENERATION EITHER LOST INTEREST OR DIDN'T FOLLOW PROTOCOL AND MADE UP THINGS AS THEY WENT ON WITH THIS DANCE. THEREFORE, YOU GET THINGS MESSED UP AND MISINTERPRETED AND SOCIETIES OF MEN TRY TO CLAIM SANCTION BY THESE KIOWA'S GOURD DANCE GROUPS SOLELY BECAUSE OF MEMBERSHIP OR TO BE LOOKED UP TO OR THEY CLAIM OWNERSHIP TO THIS DANCE WHEN ORIGIN COMES FROM THE RED WOLF FAMILY AND DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE MEANING BEHIND THE HISTORY OF HOW RED WOLF WAS GIVEN THIS SONG FIRST AND THEN THE DANCE AND FEAST. I SAY THIS BECAUSE I'M FROM THE KINEP BAND AND THE REE BAND OF THE KIOWA. AH-HOOOOE!! SAUT-GYAH-DAH
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Old 08-28-2007, 07:42 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powwowbum49 View Post
Josiah

Keep in mind that not all the groups that are called societies are true clans/societies like Kiowa gourd clan. For most of the groups it is not a true ceremonial. As gourd dancing became mainstreamed into Oklahoma powwows group sprang up that did not view the dance the same as Kiowa gourd clan. There are many groups around the country and even in Oklahoma that are more like powwow club than societies. I think these groups could have chosen better terms than clan or society to have in their names since that implies a ceremonial to me, but hey they never ask my opinion. They are made up of people that enjoy gourd dancing and want to promote it. Many of the groups are tax exempt organizations that provide aid to others. White star for example works every year to collect funds that it donates to a Kiowa education fund that provides college scholarships for Kiowa kids that are attending or planning to attend University.

Are all these groups sanctioned by the Kiowa... I very seriously doubt it. Are they accepted and welcomed by the Kiowa...by some Kiowa yes and others no. I know White star has been ask to Co Host dances in Oklahoma with other Kiowa groups, but to my knowledge it is not a "sanctioned" group.

Also keep in mind that other tribes claim to be originators of the dance and have promoted it's spreading as well. I doubt these groups/clan/societies ask the Kiowa if it is ok to give the dance to others.

just some food for thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2kiowa4u View Post
from what's been told to me and many other Kiowa's, our dance has a very serious meaning to our lives as Kiowa. Other tribes again claim sort of origination which is a misnomer and only the Kiowas are the sole owners of this dance and song. i'm not going into detail why, but like i've stated in other post on this website, THIS IS A KIOWA DANCE! HAS BEEN SINCE THE CREATION OF TIME OF OUR PEOPLE WHEN THEY DWELLED IN THE CANANDIAN ROCKIES AND NORTHERN TERRITORY OF MONTANA. IT WASN'T GIVEN TO ANY OTHER TRIBE BUT THE KIOWAS, IN THE LATTER YEARS THROUGH PEACE WITH OTHER TRIBES THIS DANCE WAS GIVEN TO SHOW THEIR BROTHERHOOD AND ALLIANCE AND THIS IS WHERE ALOT OF YOU PEOPLE MISUNDERSTAND AND TAKE THIS OUT OF CONTEXT THAT OTHER TRIBES HAD THIS DANCE. WHEN THE KIOWA'S BACK THEN MEANT FOR THIS DANCE TO BE TAKEN CARE OF PROPERLY AND ORDERLY MANNER BUT THEN THE YOUNGER GENERATION EITHER LOST INTEREST OR DIDN'T FOLLOW PROTOCOL AND MADE UP THINGS AS THEY WENT ON WITH THIS DANCE. THEREFORE, YOU GET THINGS MESSED UP AND MISINTERPRETED AND SOCIETIES OF MEN TRY TO CLAIM SANCTION BY THESE KIOWA'S GOURD DANCE GROUPS SOLELY BECAUSE OF MEMBERSHIP OR TO BE LOOKED UP TO OR THEY CLAIM OWNERSHIP TO THIS DANCE WHEN ORIGIN COMES FROM THE RED WOLF FAMILY AND DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE MEANING BEHIND THE HISTORY OF HOW RED WOLF WAS GIVEN THIS SONG FIRST AND THEN THE DANCE AND FEAST. I SAY THIS BECAUSE I'M FROM THE KINEP BAND AND THE REE BAND OF THE KIOWA. AH-HOOOOE!! SAUT-GYAH-DAH
This is precisely my point in all of this
I am very aware that this is a very special dance to the Kiowa
and very old!!!
But in modern times after it was revived (1950's) It has been giving to other tribes and groups
I was trying to see to whom...
There are alot of very Knowledgable people on this website
and After reading the Post that Zotigh posted a few years back I saw that that woould be a good thing to know how many groups were out there and where did they come from...

I am very aware that there are groups that spring up and just do there own thing...
But I am also fasinated to find for instance the Omaha seem to have took the time to come to Oklahoma and do things the "Proper Way" All the way from Nebraska!!!
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:13 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
I have a question for Gourd Society Dancers (please forgive me if I am saying it wrong). I was in OK a few years back and my girlfriend whose father is a Tiai-Piah society dancer and we went to one of these dances while I was there. It was wonderful. As I sat there watching all the dancing and listening to what I could hear, he was a few people down from me explaining to his grandson about the dance and where it came from and some of how it started. I couldn't hear all that much, but the bits that I did hear sounded nice to me. I hadn't been to anything like (since I am not from OK)that and it was so nice to see something different.

Now for my question. We have run accross a gentleman who says that he is a Gourd Dancer and stated that for years. Just recently (in the past two years) we find that he says that he is a member of the: Cheyenne/arapahoe Silver Star Hawk Gourd Dance Society and that he was inducted in 1975 in Anadarko, OK. Does this society exist? Someone told us that he goes to Indiana to Gourd Dance and I don't know anythigng about that and my grilfriend doesn't believe it. Just wanted to know from anyone from there is this is actual?
Thanx
I will ask some CNA's that I know about this group...
But it has been in my experience the CNA's Gourd Dance yes, but dont ask the Kiowas to do so. So the idea that he was inducted in Anadarko in 1975 into a CNA Gourd Society by the CNA's I would find hard to believe since Anadarko is Kiowa country. Now if he had said Geary or Watonga or even Concho it could be plausible in a sorts because those are areas that the CNA's live.

CNA= Cheyenne and Arapaho
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:56 AM   #51
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Josiah

Thank you for asking about it. We have been wondering for so long. Every once in a while he would say something about OK and Anadarko infront of my friend. We believed that it was just to get her attention and fit in around her and other's. I'm glad that I found this site and maybe now will get the answer to a long time question of ours.
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Old 09-04-2007, 04:06 PM   #52
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I was at a powwow in Tipton, IN this weekend and got this flyer...

White Star Gourd Dance Society and Auxiliary
10th Annual Gourd Dance & Social
Saturday, Nov 10, 2007
Clermont Lions Park - Clermont, IN
Doors open 9am, Gourd Dancing 1-5pm, 7-8pm
Intertribal Dancing 8-10pm

All Gourd Dance groups and dancers are welcome.

Dinner Provided by White Star, Desserts and Drinks by Tecumseh Lodge

"The purpose of The White Star Gourd Dance Society is to promote gourd dancing and to support educational programs of Native Americans. A donation will be made to a Native American educational foundation after the dance."

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Old 09-04-2007, 04:30 PM   #53
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Hobbs49--Awesome, that could be it for all I know. I know that I was told before by a man that calls me his sister (by the way girlfriend--meant a good friend--not something else---I'm sorry if I confused anyone--she is married and so am I and I don't swing that way.LOL) he had been given a silver scarf slide with a hawk in the middle and stars around it. But then I got a book with this other man's bio in it and it did say "Silver Star Hawk Society" or something like that. I will have to find it. I sent the other one with her to her dad's to check on it.

I've never been to Tipton, I went to another pow wow my family was there and we had alot of fun. I have heard that it's a really big one and good. Maybe someday.
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Old 05-28-2008, 05:16 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
But then I got a book with this other man's bio in it and it did say "Silver Star Hawk Society" or something like that.
So I was recently at a hobbs dance in Ohio and the head man dancer's bio indicated that he was a part of the "Star Hawk Gourd Society in Oklahoma." I hadn't really remembered hearing about this gorup before so I thought I'd dig up this old thread to see if it was on anyone's list. Seems that it might be the same as what Timmy's calling the "Silver Star Hawk Society," lots of words in common it seems. Anyway, wanted to add this to the list even though I know nothing about it.
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Old 05-28-2008, 07:43 PM   #55
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Memphis Tia Piah Big River Clan-Any Info?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs49 View Post
So I was recently at a hobbs dance in Ohio and the head man dancer's bio indicated that he was a part of the "Star Hawk Gourd Society in Oklahoma." I hadn't really remembered hearing about this gorup before so I thought I'd dig up this old thread to see if it was on anyone's list. Seems that it might be the same as what Timmy's calling the "Silver Star Hawk Society," lots of words in common it seems. Anyway, wanted to add this to the list even though I know nothing about it.
I am learning about the Memphis Tia Piah Society; are they still around? I now living far from the area.

Thanks for any feedback! This is a interesting thread.
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Last edited by tsuj510; 05-28-2008 at 08:02 PM.. Reason: Found old thread in archives on this
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:50 PM   #56
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It would be interesting to know how much these other tribes or groups paid the Tiapiah Society to be "officially sanctioned" ?
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Old 05-31-2008, 06:57 PM   #57
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Kiowa Gourd Clan

Here are the ones that I cant seem to confirm where they go:
Osage Gourd Clan
Cherokee Gourd Clan
Golden State Gourd Society
White Star Gourd Clan
RedStar Gourd Dance Society
Northeast Gourd Dance Clan

The Golden State Gourd Society was given permission and their blessings from the Kiowa Gourd Clan back in 1971. The members that started this organization met with KGC President Taft Hainta in 1971, in Parker, Arizona, and discussed with him how they wanted this organization's rules and protocols to be based on those of the Kiowa Gourd Clan. Although some of the protocol was lost for a few years, due to changing of board members and lack of leadership, the revamped Golden State Gourd Society is slowly rebuilding and getting back to the protocols that this Society started with.
The Golden State Gourd Society was one of the first Gourd dance organizations to be formed on the West coast and certainly the first in California.
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:32 PM   #58
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I am learning about the Memphis Tia Piah Society; are they still around? I now living far from the area.

Thanks for any feedback! This is a interesting thread.
I would say yeas they are still around but have not been to the annual celebration in two years
Last time we saw them was in 2006
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:38 PM   #59
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It would be interesting to know how much these other tribes or groups paid the Tiapiah Society to be "officially sanctioned" ?
The only ones that I know of:
Omaha Tia-Piah
Memphis Tia-Piah
Gulf Coast Tia-Piah
Texas Tia-Piah
Most as a group come to the Annual Celebration although we have not seen the Omaha and Memphis Tia-Piah in a while
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Old 06-03-2008, 05:36 PM   #60
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The Gulf Coast Tia-Piah never paid anything per se in order to become "sanctioned." The organization, however, has been asked to co-host the July 4th celebration from time to time and has giveaways and holds feeds for the entire camp virtually every year.
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