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View Poll Results: Should women vets be allowed to gourd dance along side the men?
Definitely, they paid thier dues! 37 14.18%
Not in my lifetime. 182 69.73%
Yes, but they should have different type of blanket(added fringe or ribbonwork)fan and shaker/rattle. 33 12.64%
Did someone say women dancers? Woo Hoo! 9 3.45%
Voters: 261. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-19-2002, 06:20 PM   #21
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*LOL* Granny!:Shocked :Thumbs :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Old 02-24-2002, 08:09 PM   #22
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[: :p This was removed by me TMS, I relize it was ment to be funny, but it is not needed in a subject like this.............

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Old 02-24-2002, 09:46 PM   #23
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women gourd dancers

Funny is funny, but you are not. Life is ment to be enjoyed, and that includes laughing when you can and joking when appropriate. This is not the place. too many gourd dancers with Purple Hearts are there for their comarades who've passed on. Think about it.
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Old 02-24-2002, 10:11 PM   #24
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you mean this for everyone or me
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Old 02-25-2002, 12:45 AM   #25
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Angry women gourd dancers

the women already gourd dance behind the men and I think that it should stay that way it's always been that way as long as I can remember. My Great grandpa was a whip man in our tribe and he would look at all this that is being said today about women trying to dance with gourd in hand and say no respect! I've danced all my life at pow-wows and I think the women are doing alright 2 steps behind the man. And them women trying to sing at the drums is another story that no respect either.:Yell
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Old 02-25-2002, 08:31 PM   #26
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Think about it!Either these women love their traditions,and then why would they change them? Or they dont and well,they have no place there.
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Old 02-26-2002, 03:53 PM   #27
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According to a Kiowa Gourd Clan member....

I have a member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan on the phone right now, reading the posts to him on this topic. He asked me to post his comments on this discussion since he does not participate in this powwows.com site.

"If women tried to gourd dance like men, it would be extremely disrespectful to everyone concerned. Women in combat is not a recent development. Long time ago, according to the stories we heard, women went on raids with the men and sometimes had to fight in battle (on occasions where they had to defend themselves at their camp when the men were away). Women had their own societies and their dances. According to the story of the red wolf, where the Kiowas got the gourd dance, the red wolf said 'You must do these dances and sing these songs the way I taught you.' If at any time the Kiowa people don't do as the red wolf instructed, then they will lose this dance. That is precisely what is happening now, when gourd dances that take place outside of Carnegie don't adhere to the ways that were given to us, and women dancing alongside the men is another example of how this dance will be lost. In Carnegie, if I see a woman try and dance in that circle alongside the men, I will ask her to leave."

I have to agree with what the gentleman said. I know that this discussion is just that, a discussion on what people's views are on this subject. But I have to wonder about any person, man or woman, who wants to change things that are this way for a reason. A man or woman who is not comfortable with their gender role (or their place as a man or woman) within a tribe needs to look at themselves and figure out why they feel that way, rather than try to force a change in that tribe's ways. If a woman who is a combat veteran wants to gourd dance, then she needs to find something in the dominate (meaning white) society to satisfy her need for "equality" or recognition, or whatever it is she is looking for, because she is not Indian enough to accept her own ways or be respectful of others ways if she tries to force this change for her own personal fulfillment. ****NOTE: my comments apply to ceremonies/ceremonials, NOT powwow dancing or singing, which is a different subject.

(And if a woman is with a real man, then the barefoot and pregnant thing wouldn't apply, because a real man treats people, especially women, with much more respect than that.)

By the way, I don't know of any woman who would want to do this, gourd dance like a man.......Kiowa women would be mortified by the idea.
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Old 02-27-2002, 05:08 PM   #28
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well said!!!!!!!
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Old 02-28-2002, 08:56 AM   #29
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>>Two-cents1 posts << I have a member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan on the phone right now, reading the posts to him on this topic. He asked me to post his comments on this discussion since he does not participate in this powwows.com site.

"If women tried to gourd dance like men, it would be extremely disrespectful.....>>


Excellent remarks!!!!
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Old 03-01-2002, 08:17 PM   #30
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No Women Gourd

I As A full Blooded Kiowa From Oklahoma who has a sacred tie to the gourd dance should have a say. In The Kiowa society the men are the ones who dance in the arena. I have seen women from other tribes dance with a gourd,people don't really understand what the gourd dance does mean. Especially me I hope to never see these things happen. Veteren or not this dance was brought back to the Kiowa's so we would not forget who we are. So don't change because society is.
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Old 03-02-2002, 01:59 PM   #31
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While it is good that people ask questions about traditions I don't think it is good to always want to change them. Us young people are losing so much of our past. I think we need to hold onto some things, and honor why they were started in the first place.
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Old 03-02-2002, 03:40 PM   #32
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Thumbs up women gourd dancers

here! here! NDN princess, well said ain't that the truth.
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Old 03-13-2002, 06:18 AM   #33
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Personally, I wouldn't wear a bustle and roach all day and dance. It's just not what I as a woman was meant to wear. Even if I were a decorated veteran, I don't think I could stand at the sholders of the men. Just my opinion here. I do have a friend who was invited to dance alongside the men. I don't know if she gave much thought to it, but she accepted and talks about it still. It seems to be one of the best moments of her life. I agree with the more traditionalists. At the same time, women are doing alot more now days. I wouldn't scoff at a woman if she were dancing with the men. But I wouldn't incourage anyone to do it.
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Old 03-13-2002, 10:37 AM   #34
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Women have their own dances that honor their husband's,brothers, father's as well as their own accomplishments. This dance is a society dance, women have their place in the arena and it definitely is not shaking a gourd and dancing like the men. It is not about women's rights, it is about maintaining and respecting the tradition in which this dance was originally given. Kiowas and Comanches dance their ceremonials, if anyone would like to come and see, they are more than welcome. It is a beautiful dance and holds alot of meaning.
 
Old 03-18-2002, 04:31 PM   #35
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Re: women gourd dancers

Quote:
Originally posted by R I Whiteside
"Two steps behind" is probibally (toung in cheek) so that she can keep an eye on him and tell him what to do. Seriously, Gourd Dancers are not disrespecting their women folk. Indeed, we have fought to safeguard them and the rest of our country. Perhaps they are behind us, at the edge of the circle, as we dance in front, to stay between our families and "the enemy". Who knows? All I know for sure is that to destroy the few traditions we still have is to weaken the culture, for both men and women.
Very pc, whiteside! :devil Actually, your logic is very good and I agree with you. Women should not dance (and weaken the meaning of this dance). And, no one is saying any woman is any less of a hero than any man in war. It's tradition, and we have to cling to what is left of it. If we change it, it's no longer the tradition.
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Old 03-19-2002, 04:00 PM   #36
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women gourd dancers???????

I think that STATE summed it up in the best way possible, TRADITION !!!!!!!!!! My wife and both daughters dance behind me in the circle, and are VERY proud to be there I might add. That this is up for debate suprises me.

Just my thoughts...................
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Old 03-19-2002, 06:02 PM   #37
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I think it is good for things to be talked about so people can know how they feel about a subject before being faced with it. (not that this will be a problem in the near future ;) :p )
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Old 03-20-2002, 12:47 PM   #38
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See Woman drum string for more on this subject.

I feel that tribal traditions should be honored..co-existence with the mainstream world may be necessary, but please PLEASE don't let mainstream dictate what goes on in the tribal world. Western society is NOT a good example of how to honor a woman.

On this subject, I feel no need to fight men over the right to wear their regalia just because I wore a uniform for awhile. Even in the Navy, the uniforms were different. However, when the Navy
decided to allow women to wear the 'Cracker Jack' uniform, it was a purely INTERNAL decision. Civilians and other military branches were not factored in.

I will let my regalia reflect my military service.
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Old 03-21-2002, 03:34 AM   #39
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I'm proud to dance behind the men!!!:dancer: :mrcool:
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Old 03-21-2002, 05:42 PM   #40
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It is important to keep tradition going, when so many other traditions have been lost. I think most women vets would be respectful of that.
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