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View Poll Results: Should women vets be allowed to gourd dance along side the men?
Definitely, they paid thier dues! 37 14.18%
Not in my lifetime. 182 69.73%
Yes, but they should have different type of blanket(added fringe or ribbonwork)fan and shaker/rattle. 33 12.64%
Did someone say women dancers? Woo Hoo! 9 3.45%
Voters: 261. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-21-2002, 06:43 PM   #41
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Question

After following these posts, I have a question: Who has actually seen a woman dance (or attempt to dance) in the place of a man at a gourd dance? And where?

Aside from PWBum, Whiteside, and FBKiowa, nobody else seems to have seen this. I've seen it once before with a woman from an OK group, but that's it. PWBum had an interesting point: is this primarily a thing for groups who only recently picked up the gourd dance? Any thoughts?
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Old 03-21-2002, 11:30 PM   #42
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I was at a Gourd Dance a couple of years ago, where a woman started dancing with the men. She did not have a gourd(rattle), but did carry a regular gourd. Some of the Comanche lady singers finially asked one of the committee members to ask her to stop dancing with the men as they were very insulted and angry. The committee person quietly went to the woman and tried to explain to her about dancing with the men, however she then got angry because she was Cherokee and the Cherokee have a Gourd dance and the women dance with the men. It was explained to her that the gourd dance the Cherokee do probably was not the same dance as what was going on there and that she should dance with the women. She ended up not dancing any more at all and finally went home shortly after and still seemed angry. The point is that although this woman was a card carrying Cherokee, she did not know what she was doing and thought that her indianness was all she needed to have to understand what was going on. She did not observe what was going on, and was not interested in learning what was going on, and had no respect for the people from whom this dance came from. She was going to do it her way! All too often, this attitude seems to surface and tends to divide the people. Red, White, Black, Brown, or Yellow the rules should be the same. Respect your hosts and their ways. Don't impose your value systems.
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Old 04-01-2002, 02:38 AM   #43
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I AM A RET. ARMY VET. I HAVE SERVED AT FT. SILL AND WAS PRIV. TO DANCE WITH MANY SOCIETIES TO INCLUDE THE TAI PAI S. I TO AM A MEMBER OF A VET. SOCIETY. I'VE SEEN WOMEN DANCE ON LINE WITH THE MEN WHILE USEING A FAN AND SHAKER (I BELIEVE). I WAS DANCING AT THE TIME. WHEN I NOTICED THIS, I STOPPED AND SAT DOWN. I EVENTUALLY LEFT THE CIRCLE AS DID MANY OF MY KIOWA FRIENDS. SHE WAS A VET. BUT KEPT ON DANCING.
I APPRECIATE WOMEN SERVING IN THE MILITARY. I BELIEVE THE WOMEN VETS CAN WEAR THEIR SHAWLS WITH THEIR AWARDS ON THE SHAWL. I ALSO BELIEVE THEY CAN DANCE ON LINE OR AT LEAST A HALF STEP BEHIND. I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE WOMEN USING A FAN AND GOURD/SHAKER ON LINE.
I AGREE THIS IS A VERY CRITICAL TOPIC OF CONCERN FOR CARNEGIE, OK. (SINCE I WAS INTRODUCED BY AND TO THE KIOWAS). MY SOCIETY IS THE QUAPAW INTERTIRBAL GOURD SOCIETY. WE ARE SACTIONED BY THE KIOWAS.
THANKYOU....WADO/A-HO.
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Old 04-01-2002, 02:55 AM   #44
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I WANT TO REPLY TO THE TSA-LA-GI(CHEROKEE) QUESTION OR COMMENT. I'M NEW TO THIS TOPIC GROUP. I AM OF CHEROKEE PEOPLE AS WELL. THE CHEROKEE DO HAVE THE HISTORY OF THE CLAN MOTHERS. OUR WOMEN ARE WELL ACCEPTED IN ALL FACTIONS OF POLITICS AND SOCIETY. BUT..... THESE WOMEN ALSO HAVE THEIR PLACE IN SOCIETY. MANY TIMES THESE RULES ARE SUBDUED OR NOT NECESSARILY OBVIOUS. MANY TIMES PEOPLE NOT TRUEELY RAISED IN THESE WAYS MAY MISS INTERPRET THE RULES(ROLES).
I ALSO, AGREE THAT THIS DANCE IS NOT A CHEROKEE DANCE. WE ARE GUEST TO THE WAYS OF THIS DANCE. FOR THE CHEROKEE.... THE WOMEN AREN'T STOMP LEADERS AT THE REGULAR STOMP DANCES.... ARE THEY. THIS DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T KNOW THE LEADS, THEY JUST AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE THE LEADER.
WHEN IN ROME DO AS THE ROMANS DO.
AGAIN WADO/A-HO.
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Old 04-01-2002, 07:31 PM   #45
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Cool

I agree with Bob, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.
I am proud to be Cherokee. What I don't like are these Cherokees who need a card to prove their bloodline. Some of them make Cherokees look bad to other tribes so that now it is a joke to other tribes to be a Cherokee. It is even a joke my husband plays on me when we see blonds in regalia at powwows. He tells me to go over and introduce him to my cousins.
What I tell him to remember is that when the white man came to this land, he wanted the best of everything for himself. And he took it, the best land, the prettiest places to live and when he decided he wanted to be indian, he took the name of the best tribe, the Cherokee. Now we're stuck with him.
I was taught to respect other nation's traditions, and cannot conceive of trying to change another nation's culture. I consider it an honor to dance behind my husband, in the gourd dance even if I have just as much military time as he does and maybe more medals.;)
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Old 04-02-2002, 11:00 AM   #46
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I WANT TO RESPOND TO MORNINGSTARS EARLIER THOUGHT.
PROTOCOL HAS PROVISIONS FOR THOSE WITHOUT MILITARY EXPERIENCE. I AM REFERING TO MALES ONLY. ONE PROVISION IS TO BE ALLOWED TO DANCE FOR A VET. FAMILY MEMBER NOT ABLE TO DANCE THEMSELF. YOUNG MALES CAN DANCE WITH A VET. MEMBER OF THE FAMILY. THE NON-VET SHOULD NOT JUST GO OUT THERE ON HIS OWN WITHOUT A SPONSER. I BELIEVE THE NON-VET. SHOULD ALSO ASK THE HEAD GOURD DANCER OR THE HEAD REP. OF THE HOST ORGANIZATION.
I KNOW OF INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE NOW JUST ENTERING THE CIRCLE WITHOUT BEING BROUGHT OUT AND PROPERLY INTRODUCED TO THE DRUM. THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT PROPERLY EDUCATED IN THE PROTOCOL OF THE GOURDDANCE. THIS COULD BE A TOPIC OF IT'S OWN. I CALL THEM LINE DANCERS.
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Old 04-02-2002, 11:11 AM   #47
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so if your not a vetran your not supposed to dance at all?
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Old 04-02-2002, 11:16 AM   #48
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I WANT TO THANK TWOCENTS FOR HIS FRIENDS THOUGHTS. I AGREE FROMALITY IS NECESSARY TO KEEP OUR HERITAGE GOING. OUR ILONSCHKA DANCES PROVIDES FOR THE WOMEN TO DANCE ON THE OUTSIDE THE WHIPMAN WOULD NOT APPRECIATE THE WOMEN TRYING TO DANCE INSIDE THE CIRCLE DURING THE TAILDANCE. JUST AIN'T DONE.
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Old 04-05-2002, 10:48 PM   #49
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I two have seen and been in the circle with a woman vet. She
held a fan and rattle and also danced with an elder from
Oklahoma that said he thought it to be ok with him.
That was back in the early nineties when I was just starting out
and had not been schooled in the traditional ways. I know much
more now and I would gracefully back out and leave the powwow.
By the way that accured in Biloxi, MS
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Old 04-06-2002, 03:06 AM   #50
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I appreciate the fact that Billy Two Hawks is learning as he continues the dance. Many people don't even try to learn the
real protocol. My wife probably gets a little tired of hearing about
the do's and don'ts when someone is out in left field.
I believe that one should not enter the circle until invited and introduced to the drum. When this is done properly the one doing the introduction should also ensure the education of the
dance or at least start the education. When people just start out on their own they miss a lot of the "rules". This is evident when I see a line dance during an honoring of another dancer.

Billy Two Hawks: why not try to dance in Carnigie, Lawton, Anadarko, etc. .You will learn a great deal if you will open up and truly see what is happening. There they dont allow playing around. The women take charge and will take someone out for counciling if necessary. (or at least this would have happened at one time when I was younger). The Black Leggins Society have a good dance.
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Old 04-15-2002, 10:00 PM   #51
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Until I see or hear the Kiowa change the Gourd Dance, I will never dance in the same circle side by side with a woman, vet or not. This is a man's dance and only a man's dance. The Gourd Dance is not and should never be taken lightly or changed except by the people that started it.
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Old 04-16-2002, 09:59 AM   #52
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I heard the Comanches started Gourd Dance. Hmmmm........but living here in Oklahoma there are several different stories as to the origin of the dances done here. There was a celebration at Craterville Park in the early 50's and everyone of the tribal leaders was asked to dress in their original tribal dress. The pictures are very interesting, some of them are in the museums in Lawton, Apache and Duncan. Relatively speaking, the Gourd Dance Society Clans in Southwest Oklahoma all have their celebrations in the early summer and everyone interested is invited to attend and experience the culture and tradition of the dances. I have seen women wear war bonnets in Anadarko at Indian City, but have not seen them use gourds, etc.
 
Old 04-16-2002, 04:53 PM   #53
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Respectfully, I would encourage anyone who wants to learn the right way to participate in Gourd Dancing to go to Carnegie in early July and watch and learn. Or, if you live in Texas, you might want to attend one of the benefits hosted by the Texas Kiowa Tia Pia Society in Crowley or the Texas Gulf Coast Tia Piah in Houston. Gulf Coast's 25th Annual Pow Wow is this weekend, April 19 and 20 in New Caney, Texas and the Texas Kiowa Tia Piah Annual Pow Wow will be held May 3rd and 4th in Crowley, Texas.
 
Old 04-17-2002, 04:25 PM   #54
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Cool Women Gourd Dancers

She:kon Vets and Relatives;

In this day and age where alot of women are being allowed to cross step into dances that were strictly for men and vets only, I think the line should be drawn with some provisions/conditions.

unfortunately I come from a Native Nation that doesn't have Gourd Dancing. We Hodenosaunee peoples in historic times had dances that were strictly danced by men only, strictly by women only. That did not change until the late 1700s when men and women danced a few social dances-eskeyane together-perhaps mimicking the colonial social dances of the French/British.

Being the son of a 'nam vet, my view is several options.

One, have the woman doing a gourd dance be allowed if she is a vet and had served under combative conditions. Perhaps have them have a different colored to type of shawl, feather fan, bandolier, etc.

Two, perhaps have a drum session strictly to honor the women vets seperately where the drum is still all-male, but the women have a woman vet as whipwoman.

Three, have a male relative of the female vet be allowed to dance for her and be able to carry her colors into the arena as a mark of honor while the song is done. Since some women carried the trophies of their husbands into the dance circle, like the Kiowa women auxillary to the Black Leggings Society, why the men can't do something similar for the women who fought along side 'em? [IMG]http://[/IMG]

Right now I think we as Native Peoples are in a dilemna since women have been allowed to cross over into male dominated areas of our culture that we have been given the sacred task of maintaining for our future's sake-ie. the drum, women fancy dancers, women grass dancers, etc. By doing so we bring disharmony and in some cases disrespect and additional confusion onto our future generations, but yet at the same time in order for us to move on and survive, we need to undergo some healthy processes of change, otherwise our cultures stagnate and die. But in death, change is still evident. But what do we do with this catch 22 dilemna?

Onen ki'wahi;

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Old 04-18-2002, 06:03 PM   #55
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I appreciate these fine words and thoughts on this here board. I myself think people should keep with the tradition as alot of people have said.
I believe alot of this has to do with the women that are so far from the truth of their feminine roles as the sun is from the moon. They may not do this out of malicious disrespect but of a hatred of men. Face it there is a certain law of nature here.
Our traditions did not come into being overnite and without thought or reason. There was no thought that these were fine to have for awhile until penis envy would come into exsistence and things would need to change.
Why is it you do not see the men running to take a women's place in a dance catagory or change traditions?
Women were not created for men to dominate or to have to be lower than them. They are here as well as us men are to balance each other to make this life full and fulfilling for all of us. We have our roles... how about we stick to them and give honor to them.
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Old 04-20-2002, 01:33 AM   #56
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I posted something similar in the women's drum forum.
If women were respected for their roles as men are respected in their roles, women would have no reason to cross over. I am coming from a mainstream point of view here. In mainstream America, it seems that value was equated with dollar signs and since motherhood and such womanly roles were not rewarded with a paycheck, they lost 'value'. Of course, this is not the true meaning of value.
I am a vet, but I will be honored as a female veteran. I am woman, here me roar! LOL

Seriously, though. I have NEVER envied any part of a man....well, maybe while changing a tire or something...extra muscles would have come in handy when I found out they had Godzilla'd my tires on.

Well, I could go on, but I guess it was good that I was raised to do a man's job now that I'm a single mother, but I would much rather be a full time woman and honored as such.

Anyway...how would a Kiowa woman show she is a veteran in her regalia? I was thinking of ribbonwork around my shawl that looks like the ribbon of the National Defense Medal. Maybe wear the medal itself? How about feathers? Oooh, maybe I'll bead the handle of my fan with the medal's stripes?
What do you think?
I'm working on my cloth dress and buckskin. Maybe rosettes? Hmmm.
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Old 04-20-2002, 11:12 PM   #57
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Seems like the old "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" thing. There are people on both sides of this arguement looking at the other side. How about we look at our ownselves and our own roles and like B Bob (hehe)said honor them. If we did more of this I feel there would be less finger pointing and dissatisfaction.
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Old 04-21-2002, 01:12 AM   #58
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I guess I wasn't understood, if you were referring to my post. I don't happend to like the other side of the fence. It's more like I was sold the other side, but I much prefer the side I was born on.

These are the issues I see going on with the blurred gender lines.

Compare the words "Housewife", "Mother" and "Engineer". How did it happen in mainstream America that one commands more respect than the other?

I much rather see ndn tradition NOT be influenced by mainstream society. Honor women for being women and the words 'housewife' and 'mother' will command the respect it deserves.

Anyway, I'm going back to my beading.
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Old 04-21-2002, 02:03 AM   #59
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I want to say that I am proud to have my Wife, Mother, and Daughters dance behind me. My Father was a Vet. and a Guord dancer as well. My Mother danced behind my Father for as long as he was living. Non of these women wanted to dance the mens line.
I just wanted to say I feel real honored that they dance with me and honor me by wanting to dance right behind me.
My Wife is F/B Apache/Aztec we have discussed this topic many times, especially after we saw the lady Vet. dance with guord and fan on line. My Mother is Cherokee/Choctaw and follows the protocol of the dance. MY Wife and Mother have chastised such disrespect in the circle.
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Old 04-24-2002, 09:59 AM   #60
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A question regarding women gourd dancers?

Good Morning everyone!

I'm new at this discussion and I am asking this question out of respect, curiousity and a desire to learn.
Are there Kiowa societies in which women veterans can dance amongst themselves and not enter the men's dance?
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