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View Poll Results: Should women vets be allowed to gourd dance along side the men?
Definitely, they paid thier dues! 37 14.18%
Not in my lifetime. 182 69.73%
Yes, but they should have different type of blanket(added fringe or ribbonwork)fan and shaker/rattle. 33 12.64%
Did someone say women dancers? Woo Hoo! 9 3.45%
Voters: 261. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-14-2011, 08:45 AM   #701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotigh View Post
Dance, little llama, dance...
  • I'd explain the concept of an ad hominem argument but it'd likely be pointless.
  • So, how did that Gourd Dance contest go, again?
  • When is the Sun Dance contest, again?



I do live the rise, fervor, and vigor in desperately trying to defend a relatively recent and revitalized dance as something static.

In sum, it's laughable on its face, just like those that would try to sell such tripe.

The rational and logical Kool Aid tastes great, non-thinkers should try it.
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Old 10-14-2011, 12:13 PM   #702
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Truth has that effect on the fearful.
Truth is I'm not fearful, but as things are I know you are, no matter how ethically you want to put your neo-native aspect, words, comments, educated thoughts and wild-dreams to this.
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:25 PM   #703
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Originally Posted by Host-Drum View Post
Truth is I'm not fearful, but as things are I know you are, no matter how ethically you want to put your neo-native aspect, words, comments, educated thoughts and wild-dreams to this.
You do realize that you just exhibited -- beyond fear -- an outright inability to effectively draft a sentence in English?

I'm embarrassed for you...
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Old 10-14-2011, 04:05 PM   #704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
You do realize that you just exhibited -- beyond fear -- an outright inability to effectively draft a sentence in English?

I'm embarrassed for you...
And I'm embarrassed for you too... you have to waste your time on this subject which will never change no matter how idiotic it is...boe-own-kee...
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:58 PM   #705
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Originally Posted by Host-Drum View Post
...you have to waste your time on this subject which will never change...
Except that it already has, just since the topic was initiated?

Do you just not think or are you physically unable? Either way, you don't evidence any wisdom.

A retarded kitten would put up more of an intellectual roadblock than any efficacy to be found in your mutterings...
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:00 PM   #706
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Are we still debating this topic?

Ok silly question, one without a meaningfull answer or at least one that would statisfy all those that have sought the truth.

I dont believe there ever will be answer to the question because its flawed to begin with.

Those who dance the Gourd Dance within the cultural boundries that are inherent within a Tribal Culture the answer is simple: No

Those who have "borrowed" the Dance and are not dancing within the cultural boundries just merely learned behavior. the answer is not so clear...

Which is the correct answer??
Depends on the perspective now don't it...

For me its not who is dancing but who is singing, I have been to gourd dances all over Ndn country, If you have never experienced an afternoon session with Kiowa singers singin those songs in Kiowa under the Hot July sun, Well now you have not really Gourd Danced now have you??? In that context its a MAN's Dance Period...
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:52 PM   #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Are we still debating this topic?

Ok silly question, one without a meaningfull answer or at least one that would statisfy all those that have sought the truth.

I dont believe there ever will be answer to the question because its flawed to begin with.

Those who dance the Gourd Dance within the cultural boundries that are inherent within a Tribal Culture the answer is simple: No

Those who have "borrowed" the Dance and are not dancing within the cultural boundries just merely learned behavior. the answer is not so clear...

Which is the correct answer??
Depends on the perspective now don't it...

For me its not who is dancing but who is singing, I have been to gourd dances all over Ndn country, If you have never experienced an afternoon session with Kiowa singers singin those songs in Kiowa under the Hot July sun, Well now you have not really Gourd Danced now have you??? In that context its a MAN's Dance Period...
Josiah, with all due respect I think one has to be careful proclaiming the "Period" to signify that something will never happen/change.

In many cultures, dances that were originally performed and practiced by men have now been opened to female participation. Most dances that have a lineage stemming from war have also been opened to women. I'm sure way back when the men were adamant that the dance was a man's dance also thought that the final say was "no, period".

When I was little, my Scottish grandfather got me into highland dancing. The sword dance is traditionally a war dance to be performed only by men. Then the change started... the dance was virtually codified, each step documented to the minutiae of movement and finally a championship version and a every day dance was developed. It only took about 30 years... to move it from a war dance to a dance performed for competition. If you recall, Scottish dancing/culture was outlawed for a century or two. So the revival of the dances in the early 1900s meant change was going to happen. In the early 1990s, I was not only dancing the war dances but I was teaching them to young, male officer candidates at the mil college.

When I first joined the military, the decree from the old guard was no woman shall ever be in combat arms. That lasted until 1985when the first woman entered combat arms as an infantry private. The old guard still argue that woman have no place in combat but in my reality, I've been there since 1985. No one has lost his life "rescuing" me, I carry the same weight as the men and I do the same job. I even got blown up the same way the men were getting blown up. My point is, things will change eventually.

One may not like the idea of change but there will be a catalyst one day that will effect change, so nothing is ever a "period" or finite. I'm pretty sure that sport teams, military, professions and clubs have all at one point said "no women" only to find change was in effect whether they wanted it or not.

What Zeke, I think, is trying to say is change is already happening. The dance as I understand it, has already moved into the competition realm and that is a change. All it's going to take is the emergence of dance teachers, agreement on unified steps, overall performance styles and the word championship and you're going to have a different dance even from the one you know now.

anyway, my two elk teeth...
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Old 10-15-2011, 02:24 PM   #708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post

What Zeke, I think, is trying to say is change is already happening. The dance as I understand it, has already moved into the competition realm and that is a change. All it's going to take is the emergence of dance teachers, agreement on unified steps, overall performance styles and the word championship and you're going to have a different dance even from the one you know now.

anyway, my two elk teeth...
Umm I dont think you have ever seen a Gourd Dance, it is not danced in a competition realm!

You missed my point though "sigh"

The Gourd Dance is part of the Annual Celebration that the Kiowa Tribe and Many other tribes partake in and around Carnegie Oklahoma usually the 2nd,3rd and 4th of July every year since the late 50's. The songs are way older and go back to an earlier time when the Kiowa Sun-danced. I was merely explaining that in THAT CONTEXT you will never see woman dancing as the "men" do. The Woman do dance just not with the men they have there own part to the celebration. That is the cultural aspect that I was explaining.

The Gourd Dance is also danced all over the place outside of Carnegie Ok, In that context outside of the culture where it began it is possible you will see a woman gourd dancer with a gourd in her hand. Is it right? no Can anybody stop it? no

I have witnessed variences to the dance like: Men who wear hats, or shorts or ones that cant sing the songs very well or the same 4 songs over and over... All of these things have happened because the farther you get from the point of origin variences will creep in. But in all the dances I have been to outside of carnegie even in other states as far as North Carolina I have not seen a Woman carrying a Gourd attempting to dance as the men do...
Period
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Old 10-15-2011, 10:20 PM   #709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Umm I dont think you have ever seen a Gourd Dance, it is not danced in a competition realm!
Except, of course, there is already evidence of such that had been previously discussed in THIS very thread before the server crash that erased the post. Sum? It is, IN Oklahoma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
You missed my point though "sigh"
No. I, and others, are NOT the ones missing the point as evidenced by the following.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
In that context outside of the culture where it began...
You, of course, mean the culture wherein it was revitalized? THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
it is possible you will see a woman gourd dancer with a gourd in her hand. Is it right? no Can anybody stop it? no
And herein is the point:

1. It is possible.
2. You can't stop it.
3. That means you no longer have ANY control over what is "right."

In sum, you've ended the argument by agreeing with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
I have witnessed variences to the dance like: Men who wear hats, or shorts or ones that cant sing the songs very well or the same 4 songs over and over... All of these things have happened because the farther you get from the point of origin variences will creep in.
Where is that, again? Do you mean where it was revitalized? (Which, of course, indicates a DIFFERENT embryonic origin meaning there's ALREADY BEEN evidenced change and arguing against such continuing is singularly dumb.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
But in all the dances I have been to outside of carnegie even in other states as far as North Carolina I have not seen a Woman carrying a Gourd attempting to dance as the men do...
Period
YET.

Which is the point that you've already -- see above -- admitted cannot be stopped.

And that IS the bottom line: you don't get to say "period," history does.

1. Historically, observation reports that everything changes.
2. What I don't get, is why anyone is threatened by it.
3. This isn't Rocket Science, it is what it is.

The "because I/we say otherwise" argument is embarrassingly ineffectual.

THAT is the "point" being missed.
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Old 10-16-2011, 03:25 AM   #710
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Let's repeat Zeke's favorite words.

Retarded kitten.

Efficacy.

Modicum.
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:30 AM   #711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Except, of course, there is already evidence of such that had been previously discussed in THIS very thread before the server crash that erased the post. Sum? It is, IN Oklahoma.
Ohhh! you mean before a powwow that we gourd dance, sure thats right yep sure do. I was clarifying because the poster was assuming that Gourd Dance was danced as a catagory and competing!!
LoL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
You, of course, mean the culture wherein it was revitalized? THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.
Revitalized? By the fact it was not danced or that the singers still remembered the songs. Without the songs there is no dance.
So the dance was brought back into the public view, Does not mean it was never there, it was!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
And herein is the point:

1. It is possible.
2. You can't stop it.
3. That means you no longer have ANY control over what is "right."

In sum, you've ended the argument by agreeing with me.
I conceded those points there is no Gourd Police! Afterall it was made public in the late 50's. It has moved out across the plains. But no matter where its gone it still has a center...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Where is that, again? Do you mean where it was revitalized? (Which, of course, indicates a DIFFERENT embryonic origin meaning there's ALREADY BEEN evidenced change and arguing against such continuing is singularly dumb.)
That is why I keep inviting you to Carnegie,Ok at the City Park or even South of Carnegie July 2nd 3rd and 4th. Its like trying to describe the color blue to a blind person. Some things must be experienced first hand!! I mean I can describe coitus but afterall its way more fun to experience it first hand...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post

YET.

Which is the point that you've already -- see above -- admitted cannot be stopped.

And that IS the bottom line: you don't get to say "period," history does.

1. Historically, observation reports that everything changes.
2. What I don't get, is why anyone is threatened by it.
3. This isn't Rocket Science, it is what it is.

The "because I/we say otherwise" argument is embarrassingly ineffectual.

THAT is the "point" being missed.
But Zeke I am not arguing the point that things change!!!

You are not getting the POINT I am making...

Woman already dance at a Gourd Dance
Just not with a Gourd....
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Old 10-16-2011, 10:11 AM   #712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Woman already dance at a Gourd Dance
Just not with a Gourd....
But you continue to miss THE point: you don't control how that develops and your claim that there is a geographical mecca that will is simply false. That's why your invites -- appreciated, polite, and kind -- are meaningless to the overall conversation.

You're trying very desperately to imply that Oklahoma, Carnegie, and (now?) other places "south of there" possess the long-term influence to dictate historically what develops, occurs and/or evolves across the land(s).

Reality is that they DON'T.

And that's the completely simple heart of the matter.
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Old 10-16-2011, 10:33 AM   #713
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
But you continue to miss THE point: you don't control how that develops and your claim that there is a geographical mecca that will is simply false. That's why your invites -- appreciated, polite, and kind -- are meaningless to the overall conversation.

You're trying very desperately to imply that Oklahoma, Carnegie, and (now?) other places "south of there" possess the long-term influence to dictate historically what develops, occurs and/or evolves across the land(s).

Reality is that they DON'T.

And that's the completely simple heart of the matter.
Your right I dont control the dance

When I mention south of Carnegie it means the other "one"

Kiowa Gourd Clan Celebrates 2nd,3rd and 4th of July City Park Carnegie Oklahoma

Kiowa Tia-Piah Society Celebrates 2nd 3rd and 4th of July Chieftain Park 12 miles South of Carnegie.

Both are Kiowa and many belong to both and travel back and forth up and down hwy 58 all three days...

But it does revitilize itself every Year! Old and young dance together meet others and then move back into the world every year.

Much like it was a long time ago when Kiowas that were scattered about the plains would meet back together in a central place revitalize the culture and then break up and move back out into the plains. It happened over and over again. Songs are passed down from generation to generation I see young ones sitting at the drum today, learning the old songs from older singers who are sitting next to them.
Not by listening to a tape and not understanding where the songs came from much less the words!
Oral History in person:
Leonard Cozad Jr has sung these songs his whole life, just as his father before him who sang these songs his whole life!
Its a Living Culture
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Old 10-16-2011, 10:46 AM   #714
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Your right I dont control the dance...
Its a Living Culture
I'm not trying to be rude or dismissive (to you) but you just keep making my point.

1. It's already changed since revitalization.
2. It will continue to do so, across the board.
3. That cannot be stopped or influenced by anyone.

The crux of this entire thread is folks implying such isn't true versus those who aren't afraid of reality which is that it will change: likely to a point of being only passably recognizable in ~100 years (if it lasts that long as a separate medium).

Regardless of individuals' perception of what is right or wrong, this is just what historical development of tribes, movements, and gatherings show.

You can't beat time.

Again, what I don't understand is why that concerns anyone? It's like worrying that night follows day...
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Old 10-16-2011, 10:56 AM   #715
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
I'm not trying to be rude or dismissive (to you) but you just keep making my point.

1. It's already changed since revitalization.
2. It will continue to do so, across the board.
3. That cannot be stopped or influenced by anyone.

The crux of this entire thread is folks implying such isn't true versus those who aren't afraid of reality which is that it will change: likely to a point of being only passably recognizable in ~100 years (if it lasts that long as a separate medium).

Regardless of individuals' perception of what is right or wrong, this is just what historical development of tribes, movements, and gatherings show.

You can't beat time.

Again, what I don't understand is why that concerns anyone? It's like worrying that night follows day...
Round and Round we go in an endless circle

This will not be resolved for at least a 100 years so shall we come back at the appointed time say 16th of Oct 2111 at 10:00 am CST! Our determination will be: If women are dancing with Gourds at City Park Carnegie Oklahoma during the 4th of July I will concede you are right Zeke

LoL

Further posts are moot
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Old 10-16-2011, 11:03 AM   #716
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Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Our determination will be: If women are dancing with Gourds at City Park Carnegie Oklahoma during the 4th of July I will concede you are right Zeke
The problem, as I've been indicating, is that such is a BS determination born in the elitist fantasy that a geographic location controls ANYTHING about the global development of this movement.

It's akin to saying that "if a single person in Pine Ridge believes AIM was good, then they were/are good."

Sorry, it's bigger then that.

Saying "further posts are moot" is precisely saying "it is because I said so, as I have no valid argument to use..."

Taking your ball and going home is pretty far from inherently being correct.

In fact, it is 180 degrees away from it.
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Old 10-16-2011, 11:10 AM   #717
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Umm I dont think you have ever seen a Gourd Dance, it is not danced in a competition realm!

You missed my point though "sigh"
Josiah, I have seen a gourd dance several times. However, that is not the debate right now whether one has seen it or not. The debate is also not if there has been any women up until now dance the way the men do. The debate is whether women will everdance it as the men do now.

On the competition point, earlier this summer an announcement was made that there was to be a competition for gourd dancers. Since I am neither an American nor a gourd dancer I didn't take details and write them down. It did appear to cause some ruckus here on the boards until the server crash. If it is true that a competition did take place, then that certainly indicates a change. If it is not true, then the question at the root of this debate is still whether women will ever dance the way the en do.

My post to you, was to suggest that saying period as the final word is ignoring the possibilities that no matter what you may want or desire, change is going to happen in the most unlikely places at the most unlikely times. I gave you a few concrete examples of where change has taken place and your comment back to me was to assume a) I've never seen a gourd dance and b) I didn't get your point. In this thread all the proponents of the dance never changing have only spoken about evidence of woman up to this point not dancing as the men do. However, I've yet to see a rationale reason why it will not occur in the future. Simply saying "never" and "period" ignores that change happens all the time and the gourd dance is not immune to that change. In my work we call that "headupbuttitis".

I'm sure way back in 1981, senior officers and NCOs in my military could be heard saying words like "period" and "never" with respect to woman in combat arms. Yet the following year, women were on the AORs and quickly followed to the Military College and then by 1985, integrated into the combat arms. By 2001 not one single trade in the military was closed off to women.

In my job, I get a lot of "but that's the way we've always done it" from people. We call that resistant to change. However pretty it sounds, it does not give a rational and logical reason not to change something. I've yet to see or read in this thread rationale and logical reasons why the dance will never be danced by women as the men dance.
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Old 10-16-2011, 11:23 AM   #718
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The problem, as I've been indicating, is that such is a BS determination born in the elitist fantasy that a geographic location controls ANYTHING about the global development of this movement.

It's akin to saying that "if a single person in Pine Ridge believes AIM was good, then they were/are good."

Sorry, it's bigger then that.

Saying "further posts are moot" is precisely saying "it is because I said so, as I have no valid argument to use..."

Taking your ball and going home is pretty far from inherently being correct.

In fact, it is 180 degrees away from it.
But you have to agree when someone takes the ball home that pretty much ends the game. LOL

Here is the original Post:
Yesterday a friend and I had a discussion about women gourd dancers. We were talking about women veterans dancing along side the men with blankets, fans and shakers/rattles.
I would like to know what you all feel about this.

So the question is:Should Women Gourd dance?
I say that they already do...

Really the Question should be Should Women Gourd Dance as the Men do?
I say NO,

You say its already happened by the fact that all things change

I say that I have personally never seen a Woman Gourd Dancer with Gourd in hand dancing as the Men do nor have I ever heard of one.

I say that there is a misconception that the Gourd Dance is a "veterans" Dance (Its Not) But this misconception believes that women veterans should have a place next to the other "veterans"! But the dance is not a "Veterans" Dance and so to believe women veterans are somehow excluded from the Dance and not given the proper respect is simply not true!

I say we will not know how far change will occur but from my own personal observation that change has not occurred at the birth place of this dance.
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Old 10-16-2011, 11:33 AM   #719
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But you have to agree when someone takes the ball home that pretty much ends the game. LOL
Only if their ball is being used.

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I say we will not know how far change will occur but from my own personal observation that change has not occurred at the birth place of this dance.
Don't you mean its re-birth (i.e., revitalization and NOT embryonic origin) in the late 1950s? In sum, your bedrock is already 2nd generation.

That means it's NOT your ball to use or control. Trying to tie control to a geographic location just doesn't work unless you think German Chocolate cakes are only made in Germany and they continue to determine what ingredients everyone uses... (sigh)

You're trying -- and failing -- to have a closed tactical world view mesh with a realistic and open strategic reality.

It's NOT working.
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Old 10-16-2011, 11:34 AM   #720
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On the competition point, earlier this summer an announcement was made that there was to be a competition for gourd dancers. Since I am neither an American nor a gourd dancer I didn't take details and write them down. It did appear to cause some ruckus here on the boards until the server crash. If it is true that a competition did take place, then that certainly indicates a change. If it is not true, then the question at the root of this debate is still whether women will ever dance the way the en do.
I would be curious to know if you heard this announcement on Powwows.com or at a Powwow about a competition Gourd Dance. I also would be curious if anyone else has ever heard of that. It would be difficult to picture the rules that would be used also. How high you bounce, or how much of the arena is used while dancing its really very simple steps not even a double beat steps.
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