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View Poll Results: Should women vets be allowed to gourd dance along side the men?
Definitely, they paid thier dues! 37 14.18%
Not in my lifetime. 182 69.73%
Yes, but they should have different type of blanket(added fringe or ribbonwork)fan and shaker/rattle. 33 12.64%
Did someone say women dancers? Woo Hoo! 9 3.45%
Voters: 261. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-16-2011, 11:42 AM   #721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Only if their ball is being used.



Don't you mean its re-birth (i.e., revitalization and NOT embryonic origin) in the late 1950s? In sum, your bedrock is already 2nd generation.

That means it's NOT your ball to use or control. Trying to tie control to a geographic location just doesn't work unless you think German Chocolate cakes are only made in Germany and they continue to determine what ingredients everyone uses... (sigh)

You're trying -- and failing -- to have a closed tactical world view mesh with a realistic and open strategic reality.

It's NOT working.
Zeke the dance has changed I agree
What we are argueing about isBy how Much it will change
You say it will change so much that we wont be able to recognize it in a 100 years

I say that will happen if its never renewed over and over...
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Old 10-16-2011, 11:52 AM   #722
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Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
But you have to agree when someone takes the ball home that pretty much ends the game. LOL

Here is the original Post:
Yesterday a friend and I had a discussion about women gourd dancers. We were talking about women veterans dancing along side the men with blankets, fans and shakers/rattles.
I would like to know what you all feel about this.

So the question is:Should Women Gourd dance?
I say that they already do...

Really the Question should be Should Women Gourd Dance as the Men do?
I say NO,

You say its already happened by the fact that all things change

I say that I have personally never seen a Woman Gourd Dancer with Gourd in hand dancing as the Men do nor have I ever heard of one.

I say that there is a misconception that the Gourd Dance is a "veterans" Dance (Its Not) But this misconception believes that women veterans should have a place next to the other "veterans"! But the dance is not a "Veterans" Dance and so to believe women veterans are somehow excluded from the Dance and not given the proper respect is simply not true!

I say we will not know how far change will occur but from my own personal observation that change has not occurred at the birth place of this dance.
Couple of points to clear up Josiah.

I seem to recall in the history of the Kiowa, that your people started off somewhere up what is now known as Alberta, Canada and then migrated south around the 17th century to OK. Is claiming that the birthplace is OK not indicating that it was created after your people's arrival in OK? Therefore making the dance an event that was brought on by change? I realize that the dance was reintroduced in the 1950s but from what era of the tribe's history was it reintroduced from? Was it the pre-1700 northern plains location or the post Medicine Lodge Treaty era? I am assuming that if it is considered an old ways, traditional dance that it's birthplace would actually be where all Kiowa's birthplace was - that being the northern Plains of what is now Canada. So where exactly is the dance's birthplace? OK or older days? Which is it? I'd appreciate that being cleared up, thanks.

Second point, Most native veterans already know that the gourd dance isn't a veteran's dance. If in your last post, you were assuming that my example of a change in the military was to pound the point in that women veterans should be able to dance it... you assumed wrong. However, once you have a few Kiowa female veterans or simply Kiowa females that want to dance as men do, that may be the game changer. You guys are going to have to come up with a better reason to stop them than, "I said so", "Never" and "Period".
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Old 10-16-2011, 12:04 PM   #723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
Couple of points to clear up Josiah.

I seem to recall in the history of the Kiowa, that your people started off somewhere up what is now known as Alberta, Canada and then migrated south around the 17th century to OK. Is claiming that the birthplace is OK not indicating that it was created after your people's arrival in OK? Therefore making the dance an event that was brought on by change? I realize that the dance was reintroduced in the 1950s but from what era of the tribe's history was it reintroduced from? Was it the pre-1700 northern plains location or the post Medicine Lodge Treaty era? I am assuming that if it is considered an old ways, traditional dance that it's birthplace would actually be where all Kiowa's birthplace was - that being the northern Plains of what is now Canada. So where exactly is the dance's birthplace? OK or older days? Which is it? I'd appreciate that being cleared up, thanks.

Second point, Most native veterans already know that the gourd dance isn't a veteran's dance. If in your last post, you were assuming that my example of a change in the military was to pound the point in that women veterans should be able to dance it... you assumed wrong. However, once you have a few Kiowa female veterans or simply Kiowa females that want to dance as men do, that may be the game changer. You guys are going to have to come up with a better reason to stop them than, "I said so", "Never" and "Period".
We are talking about the modern dance from the 50's the songs do date back to an earlier time but who is to say from where
There are many opinions on that.

I think there is an assumption that there is some kind of barrier to be broken down seperate but equal

That is not the case here. Women dance Men Dance
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Old 10-16-2011, 06:33 PM   #724
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thank you!



You're welcome.
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Old 10-18-2011, 11:38 AM   #725
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I thought this was the land of majority rules or are we under Zeke's rules? Tyranny with big words is what I say.
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:47 PM   #726
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I thought this was the land of majority rules or are we under Zeke's rules? Tyranny with big words is what I say.
It's only an issue for those who lack English comprehension and the ability to independently reason.

Then, they drag out an online dictionary spell "tyranny."

Further, America is a Constitutional Republic.

"Majority rules" is SO far from what is real or correct, just like most of your theories.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:52 AM   #727
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
It's only an issue for those who lack English comprehension and the ability to independently reason.

Then, they drag out an online dictionary spell "tyranny."

Further, America is a Constitutional Republic.

"Majority rules" is SO far from what is real or correct, just like most of your theories.
Que? Que me dijo usted o que me dijiste tu?
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:52 PM   #728
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Except that it already has, just since the topic was initiated?

Do you just not think or are you physically unable? Either way, you don't evidence any wisdom.

A retarded kitten would put up more of an intellectual roadblock than any efficacy to be found in your mutterings...
But thats just it your muttering, bow-own-=kee!
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:03 PM   #729
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Do you know the difference between "your" and "you're?"

Apparently not.
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:52 AM   #730
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Do you know the difference between "your" and "you're?"

Apparently not.
Why whine about it, its "your" decision to post back on things like this which don't hold any water anyways.....
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:19 AM   #731
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...things like this which don't hold any water...
Like your opinion?
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Old 10-21-2011, 11:42 AM   #732
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Like your opinion?
Sooooooo! Who cares what you think
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:34 PM   #733
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Sooooooo! Who cares what you think
As a guess?

HISTORY.
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:31 PM   #734
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Here I am sounding smart:

Efficacy of taking tramadol if alleric to aspirin a in mortality in nepal. a ...... for comin the dizzy kitten of a grub that flustered laxatives of characters in the ...... Voltaren is retarded as delayed-release (enteric-coated ) ...... You can worryabsorb your womb or enterprise for modicum about ...
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Old 10-22-2011, 03:03 PM   #735
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As a guess?

HISTORY.
Too sad you don't have any history to be proud of....
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Old 10-22-2011, 04:17 PM   #736
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Too sad you don't have any history to be proud of....
Well, not that is made up and/or canonized without due analysis.

Anything less and you're just a scared individual desperately trying to manufacture some sort of meaning out of life, existence, the past, and history in a failed attempt to generate a future where you don't cower from growth.

Oh, wait...
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:27 AM   #737
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Well, not that is made up and/or canonized without due analysis.

Anything less and you're just a scared individual desperately trying to manufacture some sort of meaning out of life, existence, the past, and history in a failed attempt to generate a future where you don't cower from growth.

Oh, wait...
Good post, at least you're not repeating yourself. I got tired of seeing retarded kitten, modicum and efficacy.
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:30 AM   #738
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Good post, at least you're not repeating yourself. I got tired of seeing retarded kitten...
Then cease thinking like one.
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Old 10-23-2011, 01:30 PM   #739
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wanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond repute
wanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond reputewanjica_the_one has a reputation beyond repute
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Then cease thinking like one.
Good post, at least you're not repeating yourself. I got tired of seeing retarded kitten, modicum and efficacy.
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Old 10-23-2011, 04:19 PM   #740
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Efforkmar is infamous around these partsEfforkmar is infamous around these partsEfforkmar is infamous around these partsEfforkmar is infamous around these partsEfforkmar is infamous around these partsEfforkmar is infamous around these partsEfforkmar is infamous around these partsEfforkmar is infamous around these parts
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