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View Poll Results: Should women vets be allowed to gourd dance along side the men?
Definitely, they paid thier dues! 37 14.18%
Not in my lifetime. 182 69.73%
Yes, but they should have different type of blanket(added fringe or ribbonwork)fan and shaker/rattle. 33 12.64%
Did someone say women dancers? Woo Hoo! 9 3.45%
Voters: 261. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-23-2011, 06:24 PM   #741
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Originally Posted by Efforkmar View Post
Excellent!
Good post, at least you're not repeating yourself. I got tired of seeing retarded kitten, modicum and efficacy.
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:36 PM   #742
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You offer the same weak stuff to newbies?

LAME.
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:52 AM   #743
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
You offer the same weak stuff to newbies?

LAME.
Hey bro,

You're starting to get peeved, aren't you?
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Old 10-24-2011, 12:09 PM   #744
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Hey bro,

You're starting to get peeved, aren't you?
I'm merely pointing out obvious lameness.
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:32 PM   #745
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
I'm merely pointing out obvious lameness.
Add another word to your list.
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:57 PM   #746
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First of all I apologize........I'm sure this is not my place and I do not mean to anger anyone, but I can't sit silently any more, I mean no offense to anyone.


I VOTED.........Not my fight, not my plight, not anything to do with me, but I VOTED........and I voted NOT IN MY LIFETIME........

WHY?.........Because the dance is not for women...and should remain as it was originally intended............people are fighting so hard these days in some places to make life good like it used to be...and in doing so they are trying to go BACK to those ways, those ideals, those behaviors that made those times good.........and here you have folks fighting to change one of those things????.....really?...it's already as it was, leave it before you have to fight to change it back to what it was originally meant to be........isn't that whats going on now....fighting to get back to what was orignally there???

It was intended to be a dance for MEN..............and it was intended that the women dance their part on the sidelines in a supportive role......Am I getting this right, (Please correct me if I am not, I am trying to learn here)

Listen, I understand that people in general want to be acknowledged for doing something...but is forcing it the right way?....I don't think so...I dont' want to beg someone to acknowledge what their heart has not seen....If I get my hair cut, or wear a new shirt, I don't want to beg someone to notice...it MEANS NOTHING that way...........It has no VALUE.............


I've said before that I believe men and women were made different for good reasons..........and I believe that we have our places and our purposes in life........and I truly believe that if all these CHANGES that everyone demands had not all come to fruition that things would be different in the world today than they are....(AM I SAYING THINGS LIKE WOMEN SHOULD NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE OR SOMETHING HECK NO!!!!) but what I am saying is that somethings are better left UNCHANGED, UNQUESTIONED...just...this is how it is and nothing more..........

AND I know too, that this is not MY ARGUEMENT TO HAVE....as this particular one DOES NOT AFFECT ME AT ALL.........therefore, I WILL NOT BE ARGUING WITH THOSE THAT IT DOES AFFECT..........because it's just ill advised...........if you have no dog in the fight...take your dog out of the fight..............


my apologies again, I mean no harm to those who ARE affected by this ............
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:06 PM   #747
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Well, not that is made up and/or canonized without due analysis.

Anything less and you're just a scared individual desperately trying to manufacture some sort of meaning out of life, existence, the past, and history in a failed attempt to generate a future where you don't cower from growth.

Oh, wait...
Too Bad you can't grow up your own self-righteous wannabe, can't be, don't have any, because your a lady!

Oh! backbone...
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:49 PM   #748
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...and should remain as it was originally intended...
And how, pray tell, would you know what that is considering the dance was revitalized -- already changed -- during the time of The Honeymooners?

The inherent issue here is folks treating subjective tradition as objective religion which is embarrassingly sad. Here's the rub: it doesn't change who we are, either way, beyond defining whether or not we buy our own bullsh*t.

To quote Han Solo, "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side."

For how this all plays out without growth, Google "Wounded Knee Massacre." You see, if someone had just bothered to ask if those shirts were actually bulletproof...

And that's what happens if/when you don't think.

There's a whole lot of fearful non-thinking in this thread and it's NOT coming from me...
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:01 PM   #749
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And how, pray tell, would you know what that is considering the dance was revitalized -- already changed -- during the time of The Honeymooners?
Pray tell? I haven't heard those words since Shirley used them from the Laverne & Shirley TV show.
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Old 10-25-2011, 11:52 PM   #750
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Pray tell? I haven't heard those words since Shirley used them from the Laverne & Shirley TV show.
Well, we've already established that your English is limited.
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Old 10-26-2011, 01:34 AM   #751
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Well, we've already established that your English is limited.
Surely, let me call you Shirley.
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Old 10-26-2011, 02:14 AM   #752
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Surely, let me call you Shirley.
At least get it right.

And don't call me Shirley.
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Old 12-16-2011, 02:34 AM   #753
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2011-12-16 70% "Not in my lifetime!".

From personal experience to this date, have never seen a female abrogate her place in our dance and garb-up with male vestitures and dance along-side males in our dance.

Llamas will tell you that this will come to pass, but...I think llamas just pass gas.

Merry Christmas, folks!
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:50 AM   #754
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And yet others -- in this very thread -- have reported seeing it happen AND a Gourd Dance contest on OKLAHOMA.

I so wish the server hadn't crashed: for about three days you were slapped around by your own post of about five years ago but I just don't care enough to look it up, again.

But, not only has it occurred, anyone who can read gloriously SAW IT. :)

Meh.
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Old 12-17-2011, 04:03 PM   #755
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My answer to the question (and my vote) is a resounding “YES”. As the times have changed over generations...so have our Warriors. The women out there fighting along side our men, has increased. I believe a greater amount of females will continue to join the military and fight along side the males. Some females Warriors have died in battle, just as the male Warriors have. Why wouldnt we let the females be as honored as the males? Both have been called to be WARRIORS.

I believe our ancestors, had they been going through this same situation back then, would have changed the tradition or created a new one.... and NOT been so closed minded. They were very intelligent, and although we have their traditions now, i believe ALL of those traditions have changed along the way in some form or another, because TIME does change. IF we dont change along with it, then we, as a people, die off too!

Traditions came about because SOMEONE wise decided to honor that which was needed to be honored. Every tradition was something NEW at first...it is only after repeating it over time, that it become “traditional”. Our FEMALE WARRIORS need to be honored. They do not need to be singled out from the male warriors being honored. We are not honoring them because they are WOMEN. Nor do we honor the males because they are MEN. We honor the male Warrior and the female Warrior because they are WARRIORS, and as such, they ALL deserve to stand in HONOR. I have spoken.

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Old 12-17-2011, 11:20 PM   #756
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I agree that both men and women warriors should be honoured.

But, trying to tie our Gourd Dance to military service is erroneous. Gourd Dance is simply a male dance. Young men and civilian men are members of gourd societies, as well as military folks. It is not a dance for just military folks.

Our women dance during gourd dance, but differently from males. They dance along the edge of the circle facing their men. And, there are young women, civilian women and military women dancing in this way.

Males and females simply following our tradition.
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Old 12-17-2011, 11:46 PM   #757
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I agree that both men and women warriors should be honoured.

But, trying to tie our Gourd Dance to military service is erroneous. Gourd Dance is simply a male dance. Young men and civilian men are members of gourd societies, as well as military folks. It is not a dance for just military folks.

Our women dance during gourd dance, but differently from males. They dance along the edge of the circle facing their men. And, there are young women, civilian women and military women dancing in this way.

Males and females simply following our tradition.
i understand what you are saying....now my question is this...What is the Gourd Dance about? Why is it done? Certainly not just because it is “tradition”. There must be a reason behind it. Or am i wrong?
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:14 AM   #758
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After doing a short research—i found this

A history of the Gourd Dance.
My cousin Dennis wrote a very good article on the Kiowa Gourd Dance that I'd like to share here. It was printed as an article in the Indian Country Today publication.

Quote:
Kiowa Began Gourd Dance
by Dennis W. Zotigh

The Gourd Dance (Tdie-pei-gah) originated among the Kiowa in the 1700s. Oral history explains this dance was given to the Kiowa by a red wolf (Gui-Goodle-Tay) when the Kiowa still inhabited the area around what is now known as the Black Hills and Devils Tower area in South Dakota and Wyoming.

A Kiowa warrior became separated from the main camp. After traveling for many days, the warrior became weak and destitute from hunger. Near his final hour, he heard someone singing in the distance. He cautiously followed the sound until he came to the top of a hill. One the other side was a red wolf. This wolf stood on its hind legs as it sang one beautiful song after another. At the end of each song the red wolf gave a strong howl.

The warrior became entranced by the haunting melodies that ensued for the greater part of an afternoon. Toward dusk, the red wolf invited the warrior to come down for some food and water. While gaining his strength back he listened to the instructions of the spirit creature that saved him from death.

The red wolf instructed the warrior to take the song and dance back to his people as a gift. "These songs and dances will remain with the Kiowa as long as they uphold and continue their Kiowa traditions in a good way," counseled the red wolf. "Always remember me by giving a wolf howl at the end of each song." Thus, this request is honored to this day at the end of all Gourd Dance songs.

A society was formed that utilized the directions of the red wolf. It fell into place among the hierarchy of Kiowa warrior societies, made up of warriors and rough riders whose duty it was to police and protect their camps. This society also made sure the young warriors did not leave the camp prematurely in major buffalo hunts. Their ranks came from individuals from respected families. The principle ceremony of this society was the Gourd Dance. During their ceremony, the original songs given to the Kiowa by the red wolf and other society songs were sung.

In time the Kiowa were forced to give up their Northern Plains homeland by a larger Lakota and Cheyenne tribal alliance. As they moved south they kept this dance intact as well as their sacred Sun Dance (Ka-Do). In the late 1880s, the federal government forbid the Kiowa to pratice the Sun Dance, but the Kiowa Gourd Dance Clan continued as an important part of Kiowa culture. In the 1920s, the rights to do this dance were given to the Otoe Tribe. By the late 1930s, the Kiowa Gourd Dance Clan ceased to exist.

In 1955, a group of Kiowa men who remembered some of the songs and the dance revived the Kiowa Gourd Dance, presenting it at the American Indian Exposition in Anadarko, Okla. In January 1957, the Kiowa Gourd Dance Clan was officially organized. In the 1960s the popularity of the Gourd Dance spread across the southern half of the nation. The modern version of this dance is done in the afternoon of most Southern Plains-style pow wows.

Modern Gourd Dance regalia consists of a red and blue blanket draped over the shoulders. (This accessory represents night and day). Some dancers change the blanket to rest over the heart red during the day and blue after dark. A skunk berry (Ka-hole) and silver beaded bandolier fastened on the left shoulder is draped across the heart. The red skunk berry bandolier was added as a memorial tribute to a battle fought with Cheyenne warriors. The aftermath left the land covered with red blood and is represented by the red skunk berries. A handkerchief bundle of Indian perfume, gathered from the foothills, is tied to the back of the bandolier.

A metal rattle to accompany the drumbeat and a feathered fan usually are held in opposite hands. Normally Kiowa Gourd Clan members do not use real gourds in this dance because they are associated with the Native American Church ceremonies.

Traditionally dressed gourd dancers wear buckskin leggings and a long, red breechcloth. These are covered by a black fringed shawl wrapped above the black shawl to secure it. Today these are accompanied with a long sleeved shirt, bolo tie or tie.

Head attire can include hair wrapped with otter wraps, a roach or otter cap. Following Kiowa protocol, it is considered disrespectful to wear ball caps, T-shirts, cowboy hats or boots while participating in this dance. The four Kiowa headsman of this society urge its members to dress with dignity and discretion.

The Gourd Dance should be danced with pride and respect. It is important to remember it is a male warrior's dance and protocol should be observed. Women should never begin dancing before or in front of the men. However, when an individual is being honored, women may dance behind the honoree. A series of Buffalo Dance songs must follow immediately after the last Gourd Dance song is sung. This also follows Kiowa protocol.

Today three Kiowa Gourd Clans hold annual celebrations on or near July 4 when the days are the longest and the hottest. The Kiowa Gourd Clan is a prestigious men's organization consisting of veterans, doctors, lawyers, educators and other Kiowa men who will bring honor to the Kiowa people.


[Article published courtesy of the Indian Country Today]
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Old 12-18-2011, 01:06 AM   #759
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I have read and studied that article. I say this all with respect...

1--No where did it say that the RED WOLF said it was to be danced strictly by men.

2-- I also point out that many changes have been made and allowed as to the “dress code” followed since then.

3—It is an honor to dance this dance...is it not?

4—It was taken up by the WARRIOR SOCIETIES. Today, both male & female are WARRIORS.

5—WARRIORS are WARRIORS...whether male or female. OR indeed, is THAT the real question?

6—IF it isnt an “honor”/ “respect" thing to dance this dance....then why must the females dance BEHIND the men? Is it not to make the females show a sign of “respect"/ “honor" for the men, just because they are men? That may have made sense back when women did not do the same things that men do, and depended on them more.

7—As long as all who participate in the GOURD DANCE do it with “respect”, then why should any one group be made to dance it differently?

8--I might see everyone dancing in the ACTUAL TRADITIONAL way, if the dance were ABSOLUTELY TRADITIONAL and NO CONCESSIONS had been made for ANYTHING since the true beginning of the dance. But that is just not true, as is pointed out in the MODERN PROTOCOL of dress everyone now follows.

9—We, THE PEOPLE are no longer the same as our ancestors. As time changed everything around us, We had to adapt, even a little. Whether we wanted to or not.

10--I am for TRADITION. We need to keep the “honored” ways as much as possible. Yet in todays societies ( and i mean societies ) it is considered a humiliation ( thus dishonorable) for a woman to have to stand behind a man.

11—If HONORED MILITARY WOMEN (WARRIORS) cannot stand as EQUALS with their counter parts, as a sign of honor they deserve, I should like someone to explain why. TRADITION has already been broken. SO I am thinking, that cant be the reason.

12--I am not saying that the GOURD DANCE is to honor WARRIORS, but that ALL WARRIORS should be honored by allowing them to dance as the equals they are. By the way, females are now VETERANS, doctors, educators, lawyers, etc too!

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Old 12-18-2011, 02:02 AM   #760
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I don't think you can ask anyone following their traditions to justify practice handed down to them by their ancestors.

The Gourd Dance belongs to the Kiowa people. Others have been gifted the dance, and others have simply taken it.

We Kiowa follow the traditions of our tribe in our Gourd Dance. It's odd to have outsiders ask us to justify the gift of our traditions handed down to us by our families.

You want us to change our tribal traditions to suit you?

We simply answer questions about our dance when asked. We will continue to honour the gift our parents gave to us in the way we were taught to honour that gift. No disrespect, but we're not here to argue what you believe our heritage should be or how we should practice our traditions. Thanks anyway.
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