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View Poll Results: Should women vets be allowed to gourd dance along side the men?
Definitely, they paid thier dues! 37 14.18%
Not in my lifetime. 182 69.73%
Yes, but they should have different type of blanket(added fringe or ribbonwork)fan and shaker/rattle. 33 12.64%
Did someone say women dancers? Woo Hoo! 9 3.45%
Voters: 261. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-18-2011, 11:56 AM   #761
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Apachefire sounds like she wants to be Chaz Bono.

Said many times but Gourd Dance is a man's dance just like men's northern traditional or southern straight.

So, if women need surgery for that extra appendage just to dance. They'll need a lot of support.

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Old 12-18-2011, 03:49 PM   #762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotigh View Post
You want us to change our tribal traditions to suit you?
No.

I want you to acknowledge that you don't control development anymore.

Which is true and -- apparently -- terrifies you.
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Old 12-18-2011, 09:35 PM   #763
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I literally LOL'd.

Thank you! :)


P.S.

Llama 4 Sale.
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Old 12-18-2011, 11:03 PM   #764
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I pointed out the facts. No disrespect intended. To at least one of you, I guess i am a joke. Why is it that one of you suggests that I would want to become a man? I am PROUD of being a WOMAN of THE PEOPLE. Many NATIONS may look back through their history and find female WARRIORS. If we pick up a weapon, it is for the sake of Our PEOPLE. We women have always fought hard for the survival of our Clans, Our PEOPLE.

I have alot of pride in “OUR" WARRIORS, both male and female. I see past the Triabal/Nation lables of “ownership”. I see the Many Nations as ONE PEOPLE. No I am not an “outsider”. I am just a woman OF THE PEOPLE, who read something and, yes, did have questions.....that still go unanswered.

I believe, not unanswered because i am an “OUTSIDER”..., but because I am WOMAN. I see many of you men still believe women are “inferior” to you. No matter that we have worked our way to become Doctors, Lawyers, Educators, and....WARRIORS.

I see past the now. I see the possibilities of OUR VISIONS, becoming the Traditions of THE PEOPLE, not yet born. The Traditions of old are carried along in our hearts. Let us not crowd out NEW VISIONS (Red Wolf and Others) of those who NOW have them along LIFES JOURNEY.

I am not asking anyone to change The Traditions....I am asking for “New" ones.

To the one who jokes....Where is the respect and honor paid “TRADITIONALLY”, to those who are of TWO SPIRITS, as you suggest I am?
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Old 12-18-2011, 11:27 PM   #765
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Why didnt you leave your name...the one who left a RED “bead” for non-credit? 5:00 pm. you are one who “kicks” and hides.
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:23 AM   #766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APACHEFIRE View Post
9—We, THE PEOPLE are no longer the same as our ancestors. As time changed everything around us, We had to adapt, even a little. Whether we wanted to or not.

10--I am for TRADITION. We need to keep the “honored” ways as much as possible. Yet in todays societies ( and i mean societies ) it is considered a humiliation ( thus dishonorable) for a woman to have to stand behind a man.

APACH,

How do you feel about women dressing up as Ga'an during the Apache Mountain Spirit Dance?
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:28 PM   #767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APACHEFIRE View Post
I pointed out the facts. No disrespect intended. To at least one of you, I guess i am a joke. Why is it that one of you suggests that I would want to become a man? I am PROUD of being a WOMAN of THE PEOPLE. Many NATIONS may look back through their history and find female WARRIORS. If we pick up a weapon, it is for the sake of Our PEOPLE. We women have always fought hard for the survival of our Clans, Our PEOPLE.

I have alot of pride in “OUR" WARRIORS, both male and female. I see past the Triabal/Nation lables of “ownership”. I see the Many Nations as ONE PEOPLE. No I am not an “outsider”. I am just a woman OF THE PEOPLE, who read something and, yes, did have questions.....that still go unanswered.

I believe, not unanswered because i am an “OUTSIDER”..., but because I am WOMAN. I see many of you men still believe women are “inferior” to you. No matter that we have worked our way to become Doctors, Lawyers, Educators, and....WARRIORS.

I see past the now. I see the possibilities of OUR VISIONS, becoming the Traditions of THE PEOPLE, not yet born. The Traditions of old are carried along in our hearts. Let us not crowd out NEW VISIONS (Red Wolf and Others) of those who NOW have them along LIFES JOURNEY.

I am not asking anyone to change The Traditions....I am asking for “New" ones.

To the one who jokes....Where is the respect and honor paid “TRADITIONALLY”, to those who are of TWO SPIRITS, as you suggest I am?
Chazfire,

I am just joking. Why are you so sensitive?

WTO
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:14 PM   #768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe View Post
APACH,

How do you feel about women dressing up as Ga'an during the Apache Mountain Spirit Dance?
I am wondering why you ask such a question. I have not said anything about females dressing as men. However in a sense i guess the modern women do, when they wear jeans or pants of any sort. or if they wear T-shirts or moders dress “blouses” that are not really different than mens except that the buttons are on the other side. Not many people dress the way our ancestors did. Nor dress the way the “OLD ONES” did before them.
Quote:
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Chazfire,

I am just joking. Why are you so sensitive?

WTO
better to be “so sensitive”, than to be unsensitive to others.
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:07 AM   #769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APACHEFIRE View Post
I am wondering why you ask such a question. I have not said anything about females dressing as men. However in a sense i guess the modern women do, when they wear jeans or pants of any sort. or if they wear T-shirts or moders dress “blouses” that are not really different than mens except that the buttons are on the other side. Not many people dress the way our ancestors did. Nor dress the way the “OLD ONES” did before them.


better to be “so sensitive”, than to be unsensitive to others.
You don't get it. Are you even connected to your people?
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:56 AM   #770
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Quote:
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You don't get it. Are you even connected to your people?
no....but i have dropped this conversation. thank you for your views. **laughin**
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Old 12-20-2011, 01:40 PM   #771
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my humble apologies

this woman would ask that the People of this thread and Society, forgive her disruption of the converstations here. i do know that women should NOT dance the dances of men. Just as men should not dance the dances of women.

i also know that a Dancer who is visiting, should not join in any dance without first finding out the protocols. Just because the Dancer may have danced in a dance with the same “name”, does not mean that it IS the same dance.

please forgive my offending words, and views, about a different point i was trying to make altogether.

Thank you for the teasing....
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Old 12-20-2011, 07:14 PM   #772
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"I don't think you can ask anyone following their traditions to justify practice handed down to them by their ancestors.

The Gourd Dance belongs to the Kiowa people. Others have been gifted the dance, and others have simply taken it.

We Kiowa follow the traditions of our tribe in our Gourd Dance. It's odd to have outsiders ask us to justify the gift of our traditions handed down to us by our families.

You want us to change our tribal traditions to suit you?

We simply answer questions about our dance when asked. We will continue to honour the gift our parents gave to us in the way we were taught to honour that gift. No disrespect, but we're not here to argue what you believe our heritage should be or how we should practice our traditions. Thanks anyway."


simply stated and powerful.

Last edited by rezcar3; 12-20-2011 at 07:20 PM..
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Old 12-24-2011, 03:32 PM   #773
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simply stated and powerful.
Neither and inaccurate.

It's a lot like saying NASCAR only exists at Daytona.

It may have, once. You can claim it's "yours." You can even presume to believe that you're mecca and control further development...

But you don't.

That's just what is real.

In fact, there's this new track in Kansas where a casino is being built...
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Old 12-24-2011, 05:58 PM   #774
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It seems that Zeke wants to flip the gender issues. Is he trying to tell us that he wants to wear a shawl and dance behind the men?
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Old 12-27-2011, 11:30 AM   #775
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Zeke's just pointing our reality. (sigh)
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Old 12-29-2011, 05:16 AM   #776
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It is a well known fact that the gourd dance is a Man's Society dance. It is also a well known fact that the Kiowa people re-instituted this traditional men's society dance. What many people are missing out on is that, 1) Our Women have their roles in this Society. 2) This dance has history in some other tribal cultures, the Kiowas simply restarted it. 3) some other Tribes were given the rights to practice this traditional society man's dance. 4) NO one owns a society or any other tradition. We can only state that this is a Tradition that our Tribe has practiced for as long as man can know. 5)This is a very silly arguement since this Traditional Society dance has leaked out to the rest of the NDN world and practiced, generally misunderstood and misused, without proper education. I know that I was taught for some time prior to my proper introduction. Many are argueing mute points of different tenets of these ways. Our history does change daily since we are a living culture,cultures. Any living document is written in pencil since it can change when ever necessary. I believe this is somewhat what Zeke is trying to get across. I know that many of our Kiowa peoples want to keep this as only a Kiowa society but, sorry, it has already escaped. Don't forget that your Southern Cheyenne "friends" have also claimed this dance as theirs in a long time ago past.

Apachefire, loosen up and be NDN. We like to joke and have fun even when we are serious. I've seen Zeke in some precarious situations and joke with him about it and still be very good friends. He is NDN and very educated. He is young and has many very progressive thoughts. Again, I want to point out that he DOES come from very PROMINENT Tribal family blood lines.

Thank you all ro allowing me to ramble, Josiah I look forward to being allowed to dance with you again sometime. It is always a pleasure to visit and dance with you.
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Old 12-29-2011, 02:23 PM   #777
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2) This dance has history in some other tribal cultures, the Kiowas simply restarted it.
We 're-started' our own dance. Not someone else's. Kiowa have owned the Gourd Dance since the Red Wolf gifted it to us, but in the mid-1930's we stopped celebrating our dance. Twenty years later in the 1950's, while many of the Gourd Dance tribal members were still alive that knew the songs and dance, it was 're-started' by the very people who used to participate in the 1930's. The traditions, customs, songs and rituals of the Gourd Dance are all Kiowa. Today there are many new songs for Gourd Dance that are not Kiowa, but in the late 1970's I don't remember hearing any songs other than Kiowa songs.

You do and will change your 'version' of our dance. But, we Kiowa will continue to own our dance, and honour the keeping of our dance the way our parents taught us.
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Old 12-31-2011, 05:18 PM   #778
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But, we Kiowa will continue to own our dance, and honour the keeping of our dance the way our parents taught us.
Which only means that change is inevitable.

"We Kiowa?" Laughable. The cat is SO out of the bag.

Cherosage is 100% accurate in that this is a silly and moot argument as there has already been change and it will continue to occur.

What I don't understand is why anyone is so terrified and threatened by it? That's what's funny, here.

It is what it is and always has been: change happens.
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Old 01-01-2012, 02:16 AM   #779
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Which only means that change is inevitable.
This can't be the boob dance once women participate. Women don't know how to control their bouncing. They'll need Japanese screens to stay hidden.
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Old 01-01-2012, 01:28 PM   #780
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This can't be the boob dance once women participate.
I was sort of hoping that it would be...
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