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View Poll Results: Should women vets be allowed to gourd dance along side the men?
Definitely, they paid thier dues! 37 14.18%
Not in my lifetime. 182 69.73%
Yes, but they should have different type of blanket(added fringe or ribbonwork)fan and shaker/rattle. 33 12.64%
Did someone say women dancers? Woo Hoo! 9 3.45%
Voters: 261. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-28-2002, 01:54 AM   #61
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First I would ask, are you Kiowa? If not you might ask the same Question of your tribe. If you are Kiowa then you may want to ask this of a Kiowa War Mother. I know that the Comanches have thier CIVA where the War Mothers are a very important part of their society. I know that our society I belong to has a Womens Auxillary. The War Mothers wear a Blanket type shaw and our ladies wear a red/blue shaw.

To answer your question (maybe finally) most societies have a womens auxillary.

Good luck!!!!! Wa-Do!!!!
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Old 05-28-2002, 03:08 PM   #62
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Good Day to everyone. Well I have been reading these different thoughts of if women should be allowed to come into the arena and dance, like the men do. Well let me ask, When Old man Eagleheart, Big Bow,Ahaitty,Kaulaity, who were trying to remeber the way the dance went did they once consider of changing the way it should be danced? The Kiowa's Used the songs from the Sun Dance. If you don't belive me ask the older Kiowa men who do the history of the tribe. This question of the women dancing w/the men I don't think my Great-Grandfathers or the women of there time even thought like we do today. When I go home to dances today and see the women those who have served they still respect there role in the way of the Kiowa traditions. I can only think this was asked for other tribes who do not really understand the dance the way the Kiowa people do.
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Old 05-30-2002, 08:53 PM   #63
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With due respect to MuseBI and anyone else out there, Before you take it upon yourself to change modify or otherwise create your regalia it would be very wise to consult an elder that knows.
To keep yourself from embarassment or dishonoring a family.
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Old 06-11-2002, 11:17 PM   #64
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Women Gourd Dancing

The Tia Piah is a men's organization and has been for 800 years.
It is not our position to change our dance in any way now or ever.
The women who are honored among our people such as the War Mother's or Victory Club receive our highiest respect and honor, and any women who thinks she is better than these lady's does not know our ways.
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Old 06-16-2002, 10:29 PM   #65
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Headsman,
You're reply to all this should be enough said. Well put ! And I could'nt agree more.
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Old 06-17-2002, 10:31 PM   #66
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To Park,
I have witnessed a woman in the circle as stated in one of my previous posts. In Biloxi, MS a few years back.
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Old 06-29-2002, 06:27 PM   #67
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Smile

I've read through all these messages for and against women gourd dancers. It's tricky subject There have been women warriors throughout time. Many women are very brave and courageous serving in the military and in wars in ways different from men, then as now.

I personally do not have a problem with permitting women veterans do wear the clothes and shake the rattles in gourd dances. But I know how many of the men feel that are long-time members of war dance societies. They want to preserve the old ways. I can understand that and that's certainly a good thing.

I think any woman veteran can find ways to dance with pride and honor without trying to change up the Gourd Dance Societies. She can choose to wear the red and blue shawl (or the solid red shawl) and dance behind the men, she can speak to male members of the Gourd Dance Society before a pow wow and let them choose a way to honor her.

It is not for a woman veteran -- not in our generation! -- to make demands on the Gourd Dance Societies. It will happen slowly and over time, as more and more women vets begin to enter the dance circle as honored veterans.

I honor my father and my husband who are war veterans. I am certain that friends and family of the women vets will find a way to do the same for them. Just be patient.

:)
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Old 06-29-2002, 07:42 PM   #68
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except in cases of special request....the men can put a woman up front to dance...but they have never had a woman just up and dance with the men at gourd like this thread is describing. The old man I was talking to about this said it's just never happened.

I doubt if anyone can claim the National Defense ribbon stripes, but I checked around with the Kiowas...not a problem for any colors I wanna use. Turns out it not so much the colors (except for the black leggins) as the beadwork designs. I got permission to use the design on a beaded purse that I bought...she was happy that I liked it so much...just seemed like the whole time I was in Anadarko, this bird kept popping up.
I was invited to participate in a club for Chief Set'tainte, so I will use the colors in his honor...red and yellow, which as luck would have it..are the main colors of the National Defense medal's ribbon. NO coincidences.

I attended a gourd dance over in Carnegie, and I felt it an honor to dance along the side with the other women.

Nice post, Headsman...we talked about the War Mother's and I would feel quite satisfied to associate with those women!
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Old 07-09-2002, 12:31 PM   #69
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NO!!!!

:Yell



Women are supposed to dance behind the men unless they are being honored. Its been handed down to us generations like that who are we to change it. Women are to support the men. Out of respect they dance behind them.

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Old 07-09-2002, 01:29 PM   #70
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Thumbs up

Well put !!!!!! Let us all remember that this is a KIOWA Dance and should be done the KIOWA way !!!!!


Have a nice day !!!!
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Old 02-13-2003, 10:34 PM   #71
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Women Gourd Dancing

i have seen this issue addressed recently in dances out this way, and for those of us who have been brought up in these dancing ways, we are taught to have a certain respect for our NATIVE ways. I am a man, and i do what men do. I sit at the drum, i dance the way men dance. because i have that respect. I am not saying that i would dance womans dance.
Now this issue of women ACTUALLY dancing gourd dance has been confronted out here. There have been women who have come out into the arena DEMANDING to be honored. PUSHING into the arena.
This way that they are acting is so WHITE. So totally alien to native thought patterns.
Now these women who want to gourd dance need to (FIRST) calm down before they go charging into a gourd dance armed with a gourd and the dance regalia. because that will just get them and the male dancers angry.
I myself have gotten up and left a gourd dance because a woman did this.
For the most part out here women veterans ARE honored for thier contributions to the defense of the country, but they still dance the way women dance. This is the way gourd dance is done.
If the women veterans want to dance gourd, then let them, but first they must form their own society and make their own rules.
aho
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Old 02-16-2003, 02:03 PM   #72
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This BULL about women dancing along side the men is just that!
Gourd Dancing has been, is, and should ever be a mans' dance.
That's how I feel about it. Aho!
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Old 02-18-2003, 05:03 PM   #73
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Tia Piah GAW DANG

OMG!! I myself have never seen a woman dance with a gourd and what not while gourd dance songs are being sung. Everyone knows what to do...We all know Kiowas started gourd dance..but if I see a woman dancing gourd dance with gourd and the works I might have to bonk her on the head with her gourd.

WOMAN HAVE THIER PLACE

MEN HAVE THIERS

Who cares if this is the new times and blah blah blah, these ways are old..is it just me or is it these "other" tribes who are just now getting the gourd dance messing around with it. I wouldnt be surprised if they came out with a Barbie with a gourd dance outfit...hee hee...Everyone out there who think women should dance gourd in hand...Poor thangs.
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Old 02-18-2003, 06:55 PM   #74
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Like it was stated before this dance has been here for 800 years, it is not our place to change it. With that being said.. it is when folks try to radically change things or bring things back that were put away, that bad things happen to them and the organization. There is always a price to be paid.
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Old 02-18-2003, 07:48 PM   #75
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To those who care for women to dance gourd dance...Respect the ways
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Old 02-18-2003, 08:07 PM   #76
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People are always trying to mess with things. That's why the children are confused on how things were or should be, leave well enough alone. It survived 800 years the way it was, let it go another 800.
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Old 04-07-2003, 04:59 PM   #77
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GAAHHHHHHH!! Im not even going to step into this topic. It shouldn't even be a topic.
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Old 04-17-2003, 10:39 AM   #78
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i'm all for women's rights and everything but, i got my limits... and this one is WAYYYYYYYYYY over mine....
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Old 04-17-2003, 12:51 PM   #79
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its about respect

When i first started becoming active in the southern plains traditions, i took some time to sit down with elders, and the one thing they said most often was respect. Whether it be the family who comes to the drum to put a shawl on the drum for singing a song, someone who comes to tell us that we should not have sung a certain song, it was all about showing respect. I guess there are times when I could get all hairy, but the thing is, what good is getting all wound up.
For the most part i have seen a woman trying to force her way in to the gourd dance arena. It was taken care of with tobacco. In a respectful way, this young lady was taken some tobacco, to find out just what the heck she thought she was doing.
It was then that she told us that she had served in the military and that she was dancing because she felt she deserved that right and WANTED to be honored.
That's all well and good to want to dance, but there are ACCEPTED ways for women to dance, whether you went to war or not.
And WANTING to be honored is the same as asking someone to kiss your hairy butt.
But she was introduced to the idea of the right way to do things.

She still took it badly, talk about a totally white attitude, but in the end we still showed her respect and i think that reflected on the drum and the way it sounded and made the people feel.

I ain't about putting women down, or elevating men as the be all and end all of existence. But i am trying to emphasize respect in all aspects of our lives.

A-ho
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Old 04-22-2003, 09:59 AM   #80
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i have only seen the Gourd Dance once or twice in my life. I am aware that Gourd Dancing started off as a male society thing. I have seen alot of Women veterans that are flag bearers during Grand Entry. I see nothing wrong with women doing the Gourd dance.
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