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View Poll Results: Should women vets be allowed to gourd dance along side the men?
Definitely, they paid thier dues! 37 14.18%
Not in my lifetime. 182 69.73%
Yes, but they should have different type of blanket(added fringe or ribbonwork)fan and shaker/rattle. 33 12.64%
Did someone say women dancers? Woo Hoo! 9 3.45%
Voters: 261. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-28-2012, 12:12 PM   #801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
But that IS the Point ZEKE
Who defines the Dance?
Those that Dance

Gourd Dance is a Man's Dance
Every Year Down around Carnegie Oklahoma it is Celebrated as a Man's Dance thus it is redefined

So one could argue that in Carnegie Oklahoma everyyear it is REAFIRMED as a Man's Dance

To Argue that a woman may at sometime somewhere pick up a Gourd and dance is Moot

Because in Carnegie it dont happen
But even in the few years I've been on this site, I've seen the definition of the dance change. That is the point I think Zeke is trying to make as well. Change happens, can't stop it.

The dance has gone from being touted as a "warrior's/vet's" dance to back to being a "Man's" dance. It had to redefine itself to be clearer in what is its purpose. All I think is that it changed back to being a just a man's dance to deal with the vast numbers of women veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan.

While the co-incidence of the first dances appearing after WWII and the number of men participating who also happened to be veterans, I think is what blurred the lines. Add Korean vets, Viet Nam vets and the Gulf War (where women were still considered just servicewoman by the terms of their contracts - pre 1992) and the societies had a steady stream of veterans who also were in the societies.

Now, there seems to be a little reiteration that it is just a man's dance and not a veteran's dance. Which is fine but it already has made a change right before our eyes. Albeit a small, subtle change - as in whose dance is it? Male or female, it nonetheless is moving away from being considered a Veteran's dance (and I realize it probably never was a warrior's dance - just got blurred with who were the dancers - ie, most being vets).

Years ago you would hear from the higher ups, that no woman would ever be a front line combat soldier. They added that no country would want to watch its daughters come home in a casket with a flag draped over it. The rank and file claimed that woman would endanger them in combat or would be too weak to carry the loads.

Then something strange happened and the world went to war and those daughters did come home in flag draped caskets and their country mourned them. The rank and file had women in their platoons doing the same job they did. Oh, a few old timers and dinosaurs still try and say that women don't belong on a ship, in a tank or flying jets, but the reality is, they are doing just that and it doesn't look like the women are going anywhere soon.

Don't be surprised when reality catches up what is thought to be a given.
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Old 08-28-2012, 02:23 PM   #802
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
But that IS the Point ZEKE
Who defines the Dance?
Those that Dance
Then you have to incorpoate EVERYONE who does it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Gourd Dance is a Man's Dance.
It has been said. 70% of those polled agree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Every Year Down around Carnegie Oklahoma it is Celebrated as a Man's Dance thus it is redefined
In a small place for a brief time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
So one could argue that in Carnegie Oklahoma everyyear it is REAFIRMED as a Man's Dance
It's reaffirmed as existing AS a dance. Carnegie has little impact beyond its borders, anymore. (Not disrespectful, just factual.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
To Argue that a woman may at sometime somewhere pick up a Gourd and dance is Moot
Since it has already happened? True.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Because in Carnegie it dont happen
It will.

Change happens, you can't stop it. I've witnessed this just in MY lifetime.
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Old 08-28-2012, 05:14 PM   #803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
I think I found the reference to the competition...

http://gourddancing.homestead.com/Go...ceOrigins.html



I can see where someone not too familiar with the gourd dance would think that the competition dances also included the gourd. I think there is a fine line between the regular comp dancing and the gourd demonstration/billing.

Josiah, there was mention last summer on the site of a competition gourd - just before the server went down. It wasn't a regular poster so I suspect it may have been a troll/trouble maker posting what they thought was correct information about a competition dance that included a gourd dance on one of the evenings.

I also suspect that the reference to the woman dancing in the above posted link is the same incident that you are referring to as well, if not, then there is an additional occurrence.

What I find quite strange is that for the longest time, the gourd dance was commonly referred to as the Warrior/veteran's dance. The two groups were tied together. Now, while it may have been a co-incidence that most of the men that danced the gourd were also military members and veterans, the notion that it was a vet's dance stuck around as part of the lore.

Fast forward to the new millennium where women are now seen in more combat roles than ever before - men and women both being deployed into hot spots. These new 21st century women soldiers, sailors and airmen are considered equals in most NATO countries to their male counterparts (with funny enough, the exception of the US).

Now what we see are folks saying that the dance is a men's dance and is not supposed to be for veterans ... now why do I think this turn around in opinion of whose dance it is... because there are more women veterans now that has ever been seen in prior decades. It was easy to exclude women by saying it was a warrior/vet dance when women were not considered actual vets but mere servicewoman - that is until approx 1992 when their service time/conditions of enrollment were changed to match their male counterparts.

So here's my take, if the dance is supposed to "honour" veterans, then it should honour all persons who are legally considered a veteran - that is both men and women. If it's just a man's dance, then perhaps it should stop blurring the lines between men only and veterans. Perhaps it is time to be clear that while many members of the society are also male veterans, it is NOT a veteran's dance at all.

When I was in the hospital in Landstuhl after getting blown up, my gender made no difference to the healing process and that included many, many traditional songs and dances from my NDN brethren from the US, Canada and even the Aussies Aboriginals.. no one would dare pull the "you can't dance because of gender card" when we were all struggling to stand upright.
That was a joke about Gourd dance being in a competition.

Realize something here:
The dance has always been a Man dance.
Just because it was clarified on Powwows.com as such does not mean that it was some kind of Veteran's Dance and now that there are women's Veterans from 1990's they changed the rules mid stream that is not the case...
The dance comes from a specific people who have shared it with other tribes over the years.
Yes for a time it appeared to die out but that was not really the case the songs never died out.
The dance is Celebrated every year around the 4th of July in and around Carnegie Oklahoma at the same time. It was never intended
to be a part of a powwow I go to dances that only have Gourd Dance and nothing else, But then as Zeke has said the Cat's out of the Bag LoL as far as down here, in the North No one Gourd Dances so its not an Issue now is it...

As for women not being allowed to Gourd Dance that is just False written by people that dont really understand the Dance. Women are a part of the dance and have their ways to the dance just like they sing with the men at the Drum all part of the same thing.
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Old 08-28-2012, 05:22 PM   #804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Then you have to incorpoate EVERYONE who does it.



It has been said. 70% of those polled agree.




In a small place for a brief time.



It's reaffirmed as existing AS a dance. Carnegie has little impact beyond its borders, anymore. (Not disrespectful, just factual.)



Since it has already happened? True.



It will.

Change happens, you can't stop it. I've witnessed this just in MY lifetime.
Dude we have fallen in the Less Filling!! Taste Great Argument!!!

In the past I have extended an Open invitation to come to my Camp and visit and Eat.
Its a Standing Invatation, Zeke come down to Southern Oklahoma around the 4th of July watch the Generations from the very Young to the very Aged all participate in the Celebration that makes up this dance... And hey on the 3rd my Neighbors serve cajun LoL
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Old 08-28-2012, 05:27 PM   #805
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Most kind.

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Old 08-29-2012, 01:40 PM   #806
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Old 08-30-2012, 01:55 AM   #807
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The dance has gone from being touted as a "warrior's/vet's" dance to back to being a "Man's" dance.
We have always seen young men dancing who are not of age to serve in the military. How could it be a "veteran's" dance, when there was no such thing when the Red Wolf gifted the dance to us?

Not sure when the association/misunderstanding happened, but I have never heard the leaders of the Kiowa Gourd Clan say it was a "veterans dance". They have always said it is a male dance. We say, "man's dance". But, we've always had young men participate...so, "man"/"male" is the meaning.

When I joined the Kiowa Gourd Clan, I was given a booklet describing the history and customs that our society was expected to adhere to. Nowhere in that booklet is there anything about "veterans only".

Maybe being referred to sometimes as a "warrior dance" (young men and grown men) led to a modern interpretation of being a "veteran's" dance. But, it is only misunderstood away from the source. Every year at Kiowa Gourd Clan we see many young men from prominent families dancing. We are very proud of them and happy to see the legacy we enjoyed as young men being passed on and taken up by them.

A random person or two in all these years of pondering whether a woman would dance as a man does not prove that it is inevitable, any more than would a random gene mutation turn a llama into an actual person (but, don't lose hope, bud! It could happen. "Fighting!" ::arm gesture:: Hang in there!)
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Old 08-30-2012, 02:25 AM   #808
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Zeke, I see you're up to quoting this 30% again as if it has some scientific merit, it's an opinion poll. I'd venture a guess that about 100% of this 30% have absolutely no clue as to what gourd dancing is, where it came from, what it means, or any other relevant fact. Having no clue about gourd dancing, this 30% will have about 0% effect on what gourd dancing will become. If this sector stated that in the future gourd dancing will entail the dancers to wear pink ballet tutu's, ride a giraffe, and dance to polka music, would you hang onto that opinion as well? Come now. I constantly hear the dance misrepresented as a Veteran's Dance, which it is not, and no amount of saying that it is makes it so, about the same as saying women will eventually dance gourd.
As punctuation...the words of a modern sage.

I think the llama secretly wants to dance as opposite gender, and all the balleyhoo is smoke screen.
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:46 AM   #809
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You're just mad that you can't control where this is going (or has gone).

30% baby, in an opinion poll. Do you know what defines things?

Opinions.

To wit, "I constantly hear the dance misrepresented as a Veteran's Dance..."

Ergo...

Things haven't been constant since the early 1960s. They'll be less so, now and in the future.

That's just factual.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:27 AM   #810
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Originally Posted by Zotigh View Post
As punctuation...the words of a modern sage.

I think the llama secretly wants to dance as opposite gender, and all the balleyhoo is smoke screen.
Llamas
That's funny,llamas my family has a gay member I'm always hearing about how much llamas like somthing like straberry icecream almost like a mascot for something,anyways its my opinion that vets are vets and gay is gay not the same deal,and maybe each tribe says if women dance ,
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:11 AM   #811
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We have always seen young men dancing who are not of age to serve in the military. How could it be a "veteran's" dance, when there was no such thing when the Red Wolf gifted the dance to us?

Not sure when the association/misunderstanding happened, but I have never heard the leaders of the Kiowa Gourd Clan say it was a "veterans dance". They have always said it is a male dance. We say, "man's dance". But, we've always had young men participate...so, "man"/"male" is the meaning.

When I joined the Kiowa Gourd Clan, I was given a booklet describing the history and customs that our society was expected to adhere to. Nowhere in that booklet is there anything about "veterans only".

Maybe being referred to sometimes as a "warrior dance" (young men and grown men) led to a modern interpretation of being a "veteran's" dance. But, it is only misunderstood away from the source. Every year at Kiowa Gourd Clan we see many young men from prominent families dancing. We are very proud of them and happy to see the legacy we enjoyed as young men being passed on and taken up by them.

A random person or two in all these years of pondering whether a woman would dance as a man does not prove that it is inevitable, any more than would a random gene mutation turn a llama into an actual person (but, don't lose hope, bud! It could happen. "Fighting!" ::arm gesture:: Hang in there!)
Zotigh, I do believe that I mentioned that there is a co-incidence that many of the members of the society are also retired and former members of the armed forces.

I do not believe it is a prerequisite to being a member of the society. Perhaps because of the timing of the resurrection of the dance in the post war period where it was likely that many of the men dancing it were also veterans and serving members clouded the perception of it being a veteran's dance.

My thoughts on this subject are that if the dance continues to be touted (and the "who" is touting is just as important as who is dancing it as it can spread myth and conjecture) as a veteran's dance then it will be up for challenge as to whether women will one day dance it. While the societies may know and understand what and who the dance is for the message is getting blurred the further away from the source it gets. All I'm saying is that if the societies allow the misinformation that it's a veterans' dance to continue, then with current changes to the women's roles in the military, you will see more and more women seeing themselves as veterans and expecting to dance as such.

I think, it's up to the societies to do some PR work and fix the misconception that the dance is besides being a mans' dance, is also a dance to honour veterans therefore being misconstrued that the dance is all about veterans. If it is simply a man's dance, then it should remain a man's dance.

In my people's dances, we have many dances that are done by the men only and women only. What I see as a difference is that none of the gender specific dances are touted as being dances for veterans. Veterans and warriors have their own dances. As a serving military member, I can dance these dances with the rest of the serving members and veterans. No confusion there.

Just some previous posts I found that the OP was under the impression that the dance was a warrior's/veteran's dance. Fortunately, they were set straight about the dance.. but these questions keep popping up and one has to wonder why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielcwinn View Post
Im just woundering. I know the Gourd Dance is for honoring militay, warriors, and Vets for the most part. I am not an ex-military but a disabled firefighter and medic. I would most desire to be able to gourd dance with our warriors. Would it be appropriate for me to dance with them. I dont want to go out and dance and offend someone before knowing for sure.
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Originally Posted by pecostx View Post
my father was going to teach me about gourd dancing after my return from Iraq in '08. Unfortunately he died before I was retired from service due to injuries sustained in combat. Now as a veteran I have a strong yearning to learn about gourd dancing and showing respect for veterans. I have most of my regalia put together , but I am not sure if I should use bell gourd or salt shaker for my rattle. Which is more appropriate? Also , if there are any dancers in or around San Angelo Texas , I would like to visit with you sometime.
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Originally Posted by Dine' Warrior View Post
Is not the gourd dance sacred and pertains to warriors. Does anyone know the criteria to rightfully do the gourd dance and know the true meaning of the gourd dance. They are the first in the arena to purify the grounds, or am I mistaken. If so I hope to be enlightened.
In reviewing some of the gourd dance threads, there is a persistence of the belief that it is a veteran's dance... while Zotigh, Josiah and Whome are quick to disavow that thought, the perception still persists.

All I'm saying is, if it is a man's dance then it needs to thought of as being just a man's dance without the add on veterans/warrior ideal.

We often complain that others take our culture and twist it around to suit themselves and dilute, *******ize, adulterate and sully our cultures, dances, songs, teachings and clothing. Well, here's a case of that happening. Perhaps it's time to go to those places and set the record straight.

Josiah probably said it best:

Quote:
know that some has always thought the Gourd dance was a Veteran's Dance and despite hearing Kiowa Elders stand up and say “no , its a Man's dance that feeling still persists in places. I suppose the farther away from the home of the dance you go you will hear that sentiment...
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Old 08-30-2012, 12:30 PM   #812
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Zotigh, I do believe that I mentioned that there is a co-incidence that many of the members of the society are also retired and former members of the armed forces.

I do not believe it is a prerequisite to being a member of the society. Perhaps because of the timing of the resurrection of the dance in the post war period where it was likely that many of the men dancing it were also veterans and serving members clouded the perception of it being a veteran's dance.

My thoughts on this subject are that if the dance continues to be touted (and the "who" is touting is just as important as who is dancing it as it can spread myth and conjecture) as a veteran's dance then it will be up for challenge as to whether women will one day dance it. While the societies may know and understand what and who the dance is for the message is getting blurred the further away from the source it gets. All I'm saying is that if the societies allow the misinformation that it's a veterans' dance to continue, then with current changes to the women's roles in the military, you will see more and more women seeing themselves as veterans and expecting to dance as such.

I think, it's up to the societies to do some PR work and fix the misconception that the dance is besides being a mans' dance, is also a dance to honour veterans therefore being misconstrued that the dance is all about veterans. If it is simply a man's dance, then it should remain a man's dance.

In my people's dances, we have many dances that are done by the men only and women only. What I see as a difference is that none of the gender specific dances are touted as being dances for veterans. Veterans and warriors have their own dances. As a serving military member, I can dance these dances with the rest of the serving members and veterans. No confusion there.

Just some previous posts I found that the OP was under the impression that the dance was a warrior's/veteran's dance. Fortunately, they were set straight about the dance.. but these questions keep popping up and one has to wonder why?







In reviewing some of the gourd dance threads, there is a persistence of the belief that it is a veteran's dance... while Zotigh, Josiah and Whome are quick to disavow that thought, the perception still persists.

All I'm saying is, if it is a man's dance then it needs to thought of as being just a man's dance without the add on veterans/warrior ideal.

We often complain that others take our culture and twist it around to suit themselves and dilute, *******ize, adulterate and sully our cultures, dances, songs, teachings and clothing. Well, here's a case of that happening. Perhaps it's time to go to those places and set the record straight.

Josiah probably said it best:
Its actually kind of odd when you think about it
I know of other Man Dances such as Hethuska,Ilonska that the Straight Dance evolved out of. During the Month of June for instance in the Three Districts of GreyHorse, Hominy and Pawhuska the Man Dance is done. Women do not sit with the men on the Benches and only dance on the perimeter and move really fast out of the men's way so they can sit down. And yet no one calls it a Veteran's only Dance or such thing. Although I know lots of Veterans that participate in the Dance they do it as Men.

I want to say that sometime in the past this label was added to the Gourd Dance and it has stuck for what ever reason.
But still it does not change the fact that its what it is
A Dance that people attend
A man has his part
A Woman has her part and
the Whole thing is called a Gourd Dance...
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:36 PM   #813
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A man has his part
A Woman has her part
and the Whole thing is called a Gourd Dance...
With lines and roles blurring, across the world, every day.
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:06 AM   #814
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With lines and roles blurring, across the world, every day.
Lol
Men are still Men and Women are still Women unless you are talking about Transgender People and Metrosexuals then that is something else....
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Old 08-31-2012, 10:50 AM   #815
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Lol
Men are still Men and Women are still Women unless you are talking about Transgender People and Metrosexuals then that is something else....
I meant, of course, the lines blurring in societal norms including those used by American Indians.
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Old 08-31-2012, 10:55 AM   #816
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I meant, of course, the lines blurring in societal norms including those used by American Indians.
I see

Pan Indianisms and Intertribal relationships
Hmm
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:01 AM   #817
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Pan Indianisms and Intertribal relationships
Generate eventual reality.

We can argue whether that is good or bad but it is true.
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:47 AM   #818
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The arguement will rage on forever

Taste Great Less Filling

Really its a matter of misinformation, Its perceived that the dance is a Veteran's Dance...

Which Naturally invokes visions of "Men Only" to a greater society trying to expand the rights of women. So this is a Woman's rights argument then, since women have been in Combat that they are now entitled to Gourd Dance with the Men....
But I have not been in Combat, I am just a Veteran who served his country during Peacetime on a Ship in the Indian Ocean... Hmmm

Women have been in the Military in greater numbers since WW2 and before that in Nursing corps its just been in the last 20 years that they have expanded the roles they can do such as Combat.
Well now after WW2 there were Kiowa Women who were Veterans they served in various capacities during the war and wore the Uniform of the American Soldier and yet they did not Gourd Dance with the Men in the 1950's! If this was a Veterans Dance then why not then???
The argument comes from the Mistaken notion that the Gourd Dance is a Veteran's Dance...

It is not a question of time because the Argument stems from Misinformation...

Veteran's Do not have a specific Dance that is Exclusive to them
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:53 AM   #819
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It is not a question of time because the Argument stems from Misinformation...
Which, over time, will become the norm. (In fact, in many places, it already has.)

Perception is reality.
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Old 09-05-2012, 12:48 AM   #820
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Perception is reality.
So, if I 'perceive' someone is a gay-llama....

I get it. You win.

:)

I so perceive.
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