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View Poll Results: Should women vets be allowed to gourd dance along side the men?
Definitely, they paid thier dues! 37 14.18%
Not in my lifetime. 182 69.73%
Yes, but they should have different type of blanket(added fringe or ribbonwork)fan and shaker/rattle. 33 12.64%
Did someone say women dancers? Woo Hoo! 9 3.45%
Voters: 261. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-29-2003, 01:21 PM   #121
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Old 07-29-2003, 02:14 PM   #122
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Actually, Northern CAlifornia is a really wonderful place to live. I'm from Texas and thought Cali was the "land of the fruits and the nuts" -- just like everyone else around the country thinks. I had no idea that people from nearly every tribe live out here, that it has excellent climate (no snow, no tornados, no hurricanes, no ice) and there is so much to do and see. I've made a number of real true blue friends, which has made my transition from Texas and Arkansas and Southern ways to California ways easier. I also found my husband here, so I can't complain. His grandson is the light of my life!

My point? Oh yeah, I do have a point. Living in Northern Calif is pretty terrific. I am south of Sacramento, east of San Francisco, and easy drive from Monterey, or the Sierras and Tahoe/Reno. I can get the the redwoods and the ocean, or get to some great pow wows from where I live. Plus, Three Rivers Indian Lodge is right here and I am very involved with the folks there. They have become my family.

I would invite you all to come out to California (but not L.A.), to visit the awesome redwoods at Santa Cruz and Mendocino and other places, to see how our Miwok, Yokut, Yaki, Ohlone and other original peoples lived long ago and live today, and to enjoy some of our cultural centers, pow wows and festivals. Since California is the produce capital of the US, we have a festival every week somewhere in this state, from strawberrise to artichokes, from asparagus to pumpkins, and from salmon to crab. We eat real good here!!!

Aho!
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Old 07-31-2003, 12:17 AM   #123
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WE WERE OUT IN NC LAST WINTER AND THIS FAT, STRAIGHT UP HAIR DYED BLACK,WHITE WOMAN WENT HOBBLING OUT TO THE MIDDLE OF THE ARENA WHERE THE DRUM WAS SINGING GOURD AND SHE TRIED TO KNEEL DOWN BETWEEN TWO SINGERS.

ME AND MY FAMILY WERE LIKE WHAT IN THE FLYING LEAPS IS SHE DOING?

THE SINGER SWATTED HER AWAY WITH HIS WESTERN HAT & A SLIGHT SWAT OF THE DRUM STICK
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Old 07-31-2003, 12:35 AM   #124
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Sounds to me like that woman wasn't quite right (in the head). Sad.
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Old 07-31-2003, 04:06 PM   #125
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Quote:
WE WERE OUT IN NC LAST WINTER AND THIS FAT, STRAIGHT UP HAIR DYED BLACK,WHITE WOMAN WENT HOBBLING OUT TO THE MIDDLE OF THE ARENA WHERE THE DRUM WAS SINGING GOURD AND SHE TRIED TO KNEEL DOWN BETWEEN TWO SINGERS.
Maybe she was one of thems snag from the night before?
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Old 08-10-2003, 08:33 AM   #126
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First of all, I am a member of the Kiowa Tribe of Oklahoma, Khoiye Kxhee ah daw. I ve been gourd dancing since i was very young. I have danced all over Kiowa Country, and also in some places outside of oklahoma. I have seen many things being done the wrong way (ie - proper dress, songs) but a woman dancing with a gourd, come on now. This is just wrong. I have also noticed men using real gourds while dancing. This is also something not done in the Kiowa arenas. The real gourds are only supposed to be used by NAC members when they go into the tipi. I have all the respect for anyone who has served this country. I am not a Veteran, but I still participate in this dance. This dance was never taught to me to just be a veterans dance, that is what we have the Ton Kon Gah for. My family has strong ties to the Kiowa Tia-Piah society. My grandfather was a headsman of the organization until his death. He is the one who taught me the ways of this dance. I enjoy dancing, respect the ways of this dance and as a Kiowa member hope that no one disrespects these ways.
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Old 08-13-2003, 08:06 PM   #127
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Hi, I'm really glad to have found this forum. It is funny though, I was just looking for a fabric store and something came up from this forum so here I am. This topic has been discussed recently in my area. I been dancin here in No.Calif for over 10 years, grew up dancin southern in Oklahoma. and last Fall I visted a pw north of me for the first time and saw 2 ladies who had made outfits from camouflage material dancing gourd. Well that was strange all by itself (one had used that gray kind and the other had used green). I'm sure they were vets, and they did not carry gourds or anything nor move around in the circle. But wierder still, when the men lined up to honor someone, they stood in line with them! I didn't know what to think. None of the Kiowa people I know were available to ask about it. the drum kept playing and the dancers kept dancing. but then, yes, we are in Calif. (LOL to the guy who said we should be our own country). At any rate, I have really enjoyed reading the many posts here, historical, personal, differing etc. and really really appreciate hearing from folks who have done this all their lives.

I have been asked this lately: If a woman is in her regalia, is it ok to dance on the side without a shawl around her?
I answered for myself just that No, I am not comfortable that way. what do others say?

about pictures: The dancers who I know here are not comfortable with pictures being taken, I know of at least 1 who prays while he dances so it does become sacred to him.

somewhere Buffalo gal said Why Do we gourddance? (sorry I couldnt figure out how to find that thread, I'm new here) for me it is cause I think of my grandpa as a warrior because he survived being an orphan, boarding school beatings, racism etc and was still ALWAYS proud to be Indian and taught me to be proud too. He taught me to dance, and my grandma too, and I dance all dances in their honor. And when I dance gourd it is to honor them, the men who are present, and all people who have put their lives on the line for our people and our land, I do pray for all of them while I am dancing cause the songs make me fell like praying. and I try to abide by what Kiowa people say with regards to how to behave.
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Old 08-15-2003, 02:42 PM   #128
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From a liberal, progressive, and slightly feministic Kiowa female... no way should women be dancing out in the circle with the men during the gourd dance. Standing on the edges of the circle (except for those occasions when someone is honoring someone) is as much as a woman has done, and that's how it should stay. Unless, you know, something happens and say another Red Wolf comes along and tells the KGC headsmen women should be allowed to dance. :)

How much of a no-brainer could a question be?
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Old 08-15-2003, 08:04 PM   #129
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Quote:
[i]
How much of a no-brainer could a question be? :[/B]
well yeah thats what I'm thinkin'. but I'm real glad you mentioned "except for honoring" cause that's another protocol question that has come up lately. and cause I'm one of the few women who get up to dance on the sides, and cause I'm from Oklahoma, then women start to ask me what's right (you know how just cause you know 1 thing somehow you get promoted to bein an expert on a buncha stuff sometimes?, like that, whew! too heavy a burden, I just have to go shoppin when it gets like that).

anyhow, this is what happens here:

either they put a blanket out in the middle for the gourdsingers and the men line up in one place and the MC says everybody come put a dollar in and shake the dancers hands, or the men line up and one puts money down in front of a man to honor him and then people start coming up to do the same and shake hands, and this includes everyone in the whole place. women, kids everybody.

Now since I know some of the dancers and have been asked to dance in their support, I always go dance behind them. And a Kiowa person told me "Women should Never cross between the dancer and the drum, or the dancer and the blanket, and thus you should not be going up to shake hands till all songs/sets are over."

so I will go put my dollar on the blanket and then go stand behind the dancers and then people think I'm some kinda rude cause I have refused to shake hands with the men. and there are elder women (Southern but not Kioway) who go right on out for hand shakin at that time with everyone else....So I ask yaz, Whats a well meaning woman s'posed to do? :(

everybody's 2 cents is welcome, chime on in and thanx...
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Old 08-16-2003, 02:06 AM   #130
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From what you have just said, I would say you are doing fine. Get with some of these Kiowa and other OK southern women on the PM. I think that you all could have a lot of good info exchange.

In todays tech world we don't need see each other face to face to help. I remember when the elders(grandmas and aunts) would come out into the arena and pull us (literally) to the side and educate us. Some times rather painfully, but we learned to do things the right way to our areas. I sort of miss this kind of education, where are our elders educating us today.

My women elders would hae had a real hay day with any woman even thinking of dancing with us in the circle.
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Old 08-16-2003, 08:32 PM   #131
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Now since I know some of the dancers and have been asked to dance in their support, I always go dance behind them. And a Kiowa person told me "Women should Never cross between the dancer and the drum, or the dancer and the blanket, and thus you should not be going up to shake hands till all songs/sets are over."
That sounds about right, I think. There are two ways it is usually done. One would be a formal special, which is pretty much conducted like any other honoring dance. The honoree will dance in the circle with the other men either to his/her right and left, or slightly in front of the line of men. Women will dance behind the line of men. Money is placed in front of the honoree be the male and female dancers anytime during the song, so there is some female walking between the male-and-drum going on, but unless a female is the honoree or is asked to dance alongside the honoree (pretty rare), all women stay behind the front line of men. Afterward, the family of the honoree will have a giveaway and give $$$ to the drum.

The second is a little less formal, meaning not that it's more acceptable to break any protocol, but that there are fewer people involved with no public giveaway. I think this is more of what you're referring to. Here's the typical pattern around here ('darko, Carnegie, etc.). Person A will honor Person B by bringing them forward and placing gifts in front of them (usu. $$$, but sometimes other items) during a set. Then Person A will ask Person(s) C to dance with Person B. Whoever feels they want to honor Person B may place money and/or dance, if male, alongside or, if female, behind Person B. Person A, B, and C can be male or female. After one or two songs, Person A will give Person C any gifts left in front of Person B whether or not the set is over, and this concludes the particular honoring. Again, since it is a relatively quick process that usually lasts only one song in a set of many, it would not be practical for the women to wait until the entire set was over to shake hands or leave money in front of the honoree, so again, there is some women between the men and drum action going on.

Also, during this second kind... I hope this isn't too confusing... there may be multiple smaller honorings of this kind going on in other parts of the circle, involving, say, Person A*, B*, and C* going through the same process. Each separate honoring becomes, for that one song, its own entity. So if Person A happened to bring Person B & C closer to the center of the grounds than Person A* brought Person B*& C*, there could actually be women dancing in front of honorees, but that would be those of another honoring. And even if there is only one honoring, it is possible there will be women in front of men. However, since the honoring is kind of considered a private doing, no one says the women are breaking any protocol by doing this, so long as they stay behind their honoree and the line of men alongside the honoree.

:)
Was that confusing enough for you? Anyway, I don't claim to be an expert, but I have danced at the Kiowa Gourd Clan July dances and other Kiowa dances since I was about four or five (I'm 20 now) and I was asked to be on their evening head staff this past July. This is what I have always seen done, and my rule is, "If you would get scolded for it in Carnegie, don't do it." I have some pictures from the July dance on my website, and I think a few might have some pictures of honoring specials, but I'm not quite sure.

However, I think my advice to women not well-acquainted with the dance would be, if you're not sure about something being the right thing to do, for heavens sake, stay on the edges of the circle. *lol* Then later, ask a Kiowa woman what the proper etiquette is for that particular situation.

I know that was an off-the-subject post, but I hope it was semi-informative anyway. :)

*Risa*
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Old 08-25-2003, 02:59 AM   #132
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I think that we should always try adhere to tradition. TRY to keep things the most traditional as possible.


Check out my gif attachment. Gourd Dancer gif.
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Old 09-04-2003, 03:07 AM   #133
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I am a Woman Vet an I feel my place is to support our traditions , an this would be outside the circle while the men do what they have done for years. There are many other dances where we are honored , I only go in for Grand Entry an the Vet song (my knees an hip wont let me get busy dancin long these days) But these are the days of change either we go with the flow or allow it to disrupt our flow of life .. So thats just my point of veiw small as it may be.
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Old 09-04-2003, 11:33 AM   #134
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WORD on that mennieturtels this topic just makes me mad but i still come in and see what else is being said.
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Old 10-30-2003, 11:07 PM   #135
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I am a member of the Texas Kiowa Tia Piah....matter of fact I am currently in the home of one of the headsmen of Kiowa Tia Piah...IT must first be addressed...Gourd Dance is not a veterans dance..period....we honor our veterans,men and women in the dance.,..but it is a MAN'S dance, women dance behind the men...it doesn't matter if the woman is a veteran or not...the only time she can dance along side of the men..is when she is being honored...then she goes back to the edge of the arena...there is no stipulation on a man being a veteran to gourd dance..matter of fact....less than 1/4 of the men in the Society..are military veterans....
It is a tradition that we continue to dance this way...as told by the Red Wolf,who gave us this dance.
Would you feel a woman has a place dancing Mens Traditional....because she is a veteran?Would you feel times has allowed this?....or how about men dancing Jingle dress?..because he is a veteran?.,I know this sounds absurb...but its the very point some are trying to argue....... Men have Mens Dances..Women have Womens Dances...we dare not venture into each others styles....unless its for some fun during a switch dance...but thats for entertainment...
The Gourd Dance is a Kiowa Dance..it should be done as the way the Kiowas do it...just as one would Straight Dance the way the Poncas do it.... we do not make things fit into our way of doing them for our convienience...we do them the way our grandfathers and grandmothers taught us....
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Old 10-31-2003, 01:35 AM   #136
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These traditions that people try to change to meet the times are the ways White people do things. White people change with the wind. They have no solid traditions.

So where do you all fit? White ways or Indian. If you say Indian then keep the ways of our elders, If you say White then go and be White.
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Old 10-31-2003, 02:44 PM   #137
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Miss_Kiowa
have danced at the Kiowa Gourd Clan July dances and other Kiowa dances since I was about four or five (I'm 20 now) and I was asked to be on their evening head staff this past July. This is what I have always seen done, and my rule is, "If you would get scolded for it in Carnegie, don't do it."

Thank you Miss Kiowa, for sharing all of that information, it has helped a lot and I will remember and share with others when asked. I hope someday I can go to Carnegie and then I'll pay lots of attention cause I hate being scolded for sure, especially back home!

and thanks to everyone else who has checked in on this issue, I greatly appreciate hearing all these points of view and feel in agreement with cherokeesage who put is so simply. Ya^gko, :)
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Old 11-04-2003, 03:07 PM   #138
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I grew up dancing with the Kiowa Tia Piah Society, My grandfather was a founder. Being princess for the Club and being brought up with this club i will always respect the old way of dance. Its beautiful and its the only way that I know and that I will practice. As for the Shawls, its a great privilage to own one.:Wave
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Old 11-05-2003, 02:25 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally posted by CHEROSAGE
These traditions that people try to change to meet the times are the ways White people do things. White people change with the wind. They have no solid traditions.

So where do you all fit? White ways or Indian. If you say Indian then keep the ways of our elders, If you say White then go and be White.
you check the gallery and the photos of the men with all red blankets? is this what you mean?
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Old 11-07-2003, 03:01 AM   #140
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I personally don't know anything about these gentlemen that are wearing the all red blankets. I do know that some societies wear there blankets differently. An example would be the Osage Gourd Clan, they wear their blankets around their waist.

Some societies have really gone off the deep end and I wish they would learn the truth. Many of these odd balls think they know the truth, but they don't seem to be able to fit in.

I was previously referring to fly by nights and those that try to make our ways fit to their wants as the white society makes thing fit.(ie: homosexuality, as the anglican church says it is now OK). Our ways and societies are very old. There is some evolution that is observed anyway as our Indian societies seem to merge. We should try to preserve these ancient ways rather than to change them to suit the modern day times. Our Indian women did help to fight when they needed to as they are today. This has nothing to do with womens lib just preservation of our way of life and our childrens.
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