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View Poll Results: Should women vets be allowed to gourd dance along side the men?
Definitely, they paid thier dues! 37 14.18%
Not in my lifetime. 182 69.73%
Yes, but they should have different type of blanket(added fringe or ribbonwork)fan and shaker/rattle. 33 12.64%
Did someone say women dancers? Woo Hoo! 9 3.45%
Voters: 261. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-07-2003, 12:27 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally posted by sate_bo_hone
First of all, I am a member of the Kiowa Tribe of Oklahoma, Khoiye Kxhee ah daw. I ve been gourd dancing since i was very young. I have danced all over Kiowa Country, and also in some places outside of oklahoma. I have seen many things being done the wrong way (ie - proper dress, songs) but a woman dancing with a gourd, come on now. This is just wrong. I have also noticed men using real gourds while dancing. This is also something not done in the Kiowa arenas. The real gourds are only supposed to be used by NAC members when they go into the tipi. I have all the respect for anyone who has served this country. I am not a Veteran, but I still participate in this dance. This dance was never taught to me to just be a veterans dance, that is what we have the Ton Kon Gah for. My family has strong ties to the Kiowa Tia-Piah society. My grandfather was a headsman of the organization until his death. He is the one who taught me the ways of this dance. I enjoy dancing, respect the ways of this dance and as a Kiowa member hope that no one disrespects these ways.
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Old 11-07-2003, 12:41 PM   #142
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Sate_be_hone I'm very proud of you for your comments on the gourd dance and the use of gourds that are for NAC use. I have several uncles and aunts (by marraige) that explained many things to me about the dance. I respect the Kiowa ways as well as ways of other tribes. There are some tribes that have societies for women warriors. Years ago, the Ponca people had a what was called the "war bonnet society" that was strictly for women. I know of only one lady that still honors this among this tribe and I commend her for trying to keep this alive. As for a woman wearing a gourd dance blanket and using a gourd......I don't think I've ever seen this. However, I did see a blanket put on a lady one time and she was being greatly honored for some reason but after dancing that one time..she never danced that way again.
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Old 11-10-2003, 03:25 PM   #143
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Gourd dance

You all are always speculating. As for me, a Kiowa woman, I know that Kiowa women are not even supposed to be in the arena. I don't know where this "two steps behind the man" concept came from but it sounds new agey to me.

The gourd dance is not even a modern veterans dance either. Whomever is teaching the women to dance like the men are wrong. If this is coming from the wannabe's in another state then it is fake.

We, Kiowa women, have our places in our societies just like the men have theirs. We know where we stand. We have our dances and we know what these are.There's a lot more to gourd dancing than any of you non-Kiowas will ever know.

Please learn your own customs.
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Old 04-03-2004, 01:58 PM   #144
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I think if that if way back when all the songs and dances originated and one of the rules say no woman should be allowed then we should respect that. I personally think it is a men's role, especially gourd dancing. Women should wear a red and blue shawl dancing supporting the men, just like we have always done for generations. We are there to feed them, cook, clothe our warriors-that is a woman's role. Now, if you are a veteran who served your country that doesn't give you a right to make up new rules that the gourd societies have made long ago-only men should be dancing out there. As a veteran, I don't interfere with that rule. I dance for myself, my grandfather who served in the USMC Pacific Island Conflict, for my husband who served in Iraq and for all the former warriors who has gone before me. I've gone to alot of powwows, but I've never seen any woman dancing alongside the men. It wouldn't look proper to see it and I hope for anyone to see that would take that person aside and privately explain the proper protocal. I live in Southern Cali and all the powwows out there I call "Inspired by Hollywood" because all the white people want to be like us now and I see them making their outfits and dancing all crazy out there. I just sit back and watch the circus. No disrespect to the real powwow dancers, but it's an example of how the powwow circle is changing every year. Check out the powwows in Southern Cali and you'll see what I mean.
 
Old 04-07-2004, 01:49 PM   #145
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I have taken time to read thru all this...
We have a new situation..with all the women vets.
However, This is a Kiowa dance. It is for the Kiowa to change or not. period. To those of you who are indian and have traditions, do you want others coming in and changing things?
Our traditions are usually not subject to a commitee or a vote...that is the way they are..follow them or abandon them...it is your call...
Maybe some tribe needs to start a womens veteran society...It is our culture to add too, without messing up what we already have...How do you think those old societies got started...there was a need, a vision, a blessing and it happened...
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Old 08-19-2004, 06:49 PM   #146
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Well..what do you expect from making a society dance into a show piece??
Lets make the gourd dance a part of the pow wows.
And you are complaining that it is turning into an Inter-tribal mess of confused people who Just ain't doing it right??? geeshhhh...
No wonder all the traditions are vaporizing in this generation.
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Old 08-19-2004, 07:05 PM   #147
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Can the gourd dance be taped on VCR??
Because there is an group here in New Hampshire, call them selves LIHA (Laconia Indianist hobby association) That in the last 2 years has started doing a gourd dance at there annual pow wow on Labor day weekend. They have a southern style drum and people claiming to be from the gourd dance society that are sponsoring this. I am not sure if they are doing any of it proper, but I would like to know If I can tape it on an 8mm VCR, and send it off to the Kiowa nation, for them to get a look at what is being done at this pow wow in the name of a gourd dance society. I will give you the address of the sponsoring people who are pushing this dance into the pow wow arena here in the north east, so you can respond to them in the appropriate manner. BTW, some of us from the Abenaki nation, have asked many questions of why they are doing this dance at this pow wow, and these people Just blow it all off, In a manner like, because this is our pow wow and we can do anything we want to!!!! But I don't think that is quite true.

Just send me a private message through powwows.com with the forwarding address you would like it sent to. Or even better, send appropriate Gourd dance society members to Sandbornton, New Hampshire powwow, sept. 4th and 5th, and see this for your selves.:Hammer
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Old 08-20-2004, 01:11 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ojipelodoba
Can the gourd dance be taped on VCR??
Because there is an group here in New Hampshire, call them selves LIHA (Laconia Indianist hobby association) That in the last 2 years has started doing a gourd dance at there annual pow wow on Labor day weekend. They have a southern style drum and people claiming to be from the gourd dance society that are sponsoring this. I am not sure if they are doing any of it proper, but I would like to know If I can tape it on an 8mm VCR, and send it off to the Kiowa nation, for them to get a look at what is being done at this pow wow in the name of a gourd dance society. I will give you the address of the sponsoring people who are pushing this dance into the pow wow arena here in the north east, so you can respond to them in the appropriate manner. BTW, some of us from the Abenaki nation, have asked many questions of why they are doing this dance at this pow wow, and these people Just blow it all off, In a manner like, because this is our pow wow and we can do anything we want to!!!! But I don't think that is quite true.

Just send me a private message through powwows.com with the forwarding address you would like it sent to. Or even better, send appropriate Gourd dance society members to Sandbornton, New Hampshire powwow, sept. 4th and 5th, and see this for your selves.:Hammer
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I don't think folks need to worry too much about the LIHA folks...I mean, I think most of them have "family" in Oklahoma among the Comanche or Kiowa tribes and at least SHOULD know what the hell they're doing out there. Least, I think I recall there being some Comanches and Kiowas up there in that area dancing along side the hobbyists.

I've not heard anyone complain about them, and I've certainly never seen anything contrary to the norm being done.

They've added the Gourd Dance to the Powwow program...that is, they've put the Gourd Dancing before the powwow and again in the evenings I believe, before Grand Entry....I think that's a typical practice most anywhere you go nowadays. What's wrong with that? Granted, I know lots of folks say you shouldn't have any kind of War dance type singing or dancing going on during Gourd, or that the dance needs to be "ended" before you do any of that, but, look at GON. They go thru Gourd, stop....powwow/contest....and pick up again in the evening.

anyway.....just an observation.
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Old 10-01-2004, 01:31 AM   #149
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okay, people...

no woman should ever be allowed to dance in the arena with a man, dressed as a man...i'm full blood kiowa and i would never even talk about such things, but some you people's ideas are out of wack...if any one of you have questions talk to a kiowa elder, since they are the originaters...some of you say talk to a comanche,but they seem to be letting women dance next to men dressed like men (CIVA) and i think that isn't right...i had to dance in lawton and a woman was dancing, i wanted to leave but since i was invited i couldn't say anything because it was their powwow and it wasn't my place
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Old 10-01-2004, 08:16 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R I Whiteside
One of the main things that wacipi / powwows do is help us as a people to hold our traditions together in a changing world. The gourd dance is a men's warrior society dance and as a vet with 22 years in the army I dance for myself and for all of my brothers who did not make it back from the Nam. I don't think that I am an elder just because I'm getting old or a hero just because I have a Silver Star and some other trinkets from the war. When I dance I am one who carries on a tradition that goes all the way back. Women Have their traditions too - sclp dances and wolf songs at Hethuska as well as the "supporting outer circle" during gourd songs. I believe that it is wrong of a woman to break the age-old traditions of our people by doing trying to dance like a man. I would not be impolite or "make a scene:, but I would not gourd dance in the circle with a woman who is trying to act like a man. We had a lady try to dance with Mens Traditional a couple of years ago at a good powwow in Gulfport, MS and the drum went flat.
I know next to nothing about Gourd Dancing, but I do agree with this post 100% that we should not break those age-old traditions that were given to us from the beginning even if the world is ever-changing. These are some good words.
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Old 10-01-2004, 12:39 PM   #151
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I also agree. I think nowadays a lot of people are subscribing to eventuality... i think of eventuality as maybe the nephew of colonialism or the cousin of social darwinism (which is goofy enough on its own, that's for sure). The jist of these things is that the inferior must be either saved or destroyed by the superior. I really think that this sort of thing is what has lead up to how things are today, with this group wide identity crisis ( this must be why those women want to dance like men).

I travel a lot as part of my job and i see this sort of thing happening in small doses in a lot of places. Well let this slide here and that slide there because it's different times and we got this feminism and affirmative action on. I think someone tricked all these people, especially a lot of the women, into thinking they are powerless and as such have an inferior position in society and for a lot of these young men, an inferior way of life.

That's how i think we get all these strange things going on. Heck, it keeps up and pretty soon the contraries will be the only people going forwards. You can bank on that.

Now if youll excuse me, the missuz says i have get to the laundry ;)
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Old 10-12-2004, 03:59 AM   #152
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You know I think there is a gross misjudgement of our social ways. People have a misperseption of our Mens societies and how we perceive our women. They seem to think that we belittle our women by our cusatoms. I have to say hobwash. I honor the women in my family and they honor the men. My Mom and wife have discussed and even cussed these new agers wanting to be men.
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Old 10-12-2004, 05:27 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE
You know I think there is a gross misjudgement of our social ways. People have a misperseption of our Mens societies and how we perceive our women. They seem to think that we belittle our women by our cusatoms. I have to say hobwash. I honor the women in my family and they honor the men. My Mom and wife have discussed and even cussed these new agers wanting to be men.
I agree with that whole-heartedly, Bob. I don't think outsiders quite understand what it means to be a gourd dancer. At least for me it means honoring my wife, and my mother, as well as all my family. My daughters too. My son, and my nephew are being prepared to gourd dance, and the privilege of gourd dancing will depend on their grades at school, and their behavior at home (like being respectful to their moms). I enjoy being a part of something that is historical, that is inherited, and not subject to change for political correctness.

My name is Arnold Schwarznegger, and I approve this message
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Old 10-13-2004, 02:14 AM   #154
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Thanks, Arnold!!
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Old 10-13-2004, 05:46 PM   #155
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numunu1971
I agree with that whole-heartedly, Bob. I don't think outsiders quite understand what it means to be a gourd dancer. At least for me it means honoring my wife, and my mother, as well as all my family. My daughters too. My son, and my nephew are being prepared to gourd dance, and the privilege of gourd dancing will depend on their grades at school, and their behavior at home (like being respectful to their moms). I enjoy being a part of something that is historical, that is inherited, and not subject to change for political correctness.

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Old 11-23-2004, 11:05 PM   #156
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Talking women groud dancers

Wow, what a great topic!

I'm new to powwows.com and I'm also new to the traditions because I wasn't raised in the ways of my tribe... but I'm learning. The one thing I'll say is that I love the fact that we have traditions. It is something that you can count on. What I'm learning about the dances, dress and all of it makes me feel safe. Being a part of something very special. To stand behind the men in support as they dance is right. We as women are to be the encouragement... dancing behind the men dosn't mean that the men are upbove us... but they DO have a position of honor. Now I'm sure that women can be honored in some way during the dance if they are a vet, right? I don't want the women to be angry... I am one of those who loves sports, plays sports and I like choppers. But I am all women and I like it that way. Women dances are for us and the men have their dances... I don't really wantta see any men getting any ideas about womens dances so lets keep things just the way they are thank you!!!!!
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Old 11-24-2004, 03:20 AM   #157
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Old 04-30-2005, 10:44 PM   #158
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Thumbs up proud indian woman

I'm proud tobe an Indian woman and damn pround of my man who is a vetran and gourd dances as that is what the dance is for honoring our vetrans and there is a place for woman vetrans as well dancing behind the men with the women vetrans who stayed home taking care of the family members. I'm proud that my husband and nieces and nephews i dress out look better than mine because that shows people how proud i am of them and if that makes me living in a male shovenest pigs world than so be it i will stand anyday with pride and dignity
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Old 04-30-2005, 10:56 PM   #159
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Wink janis

you have a good concept on our traditions but what alot of women out there don't realize is they are honoring the men and being honored them selves if they would just wake up and see it is a honor just being there the fellowship with other of their own kind sharing a dance or two with other vets n families who went thru hard times survived another day just to gourd dance to honor all vets nowing that this is a time to rejoice hearing the wolf howls letting the enemies now we are still here.
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Old 05-02-2005, 02:12 AM   #160
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Thanks, Quapawgirl, for your insight and words. Hope to see you all at the grounds on the weekend of the 4th.
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