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Old 10-30-2007, 01:34 AM   #21
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im a Christian ~~i do believe in GOD!!!!! ~~
however i dont go to church~!~!
i do go every now n then but not every sunday i like to go saturdays course i only been to church once in the last year

few years ago i traveld through canada with Jonathan Maracle we danced and it was awesome i got a few of his cds!! i wouldnt mind going again but i just dont have the time that was a wonderful experience
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Old 10-30-2007, 10:45 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by NorthofAda View Post
Not to mention the fact that the gospel came to the Jew first (not white people), and Jesus wasn't white.
Right on! Jesus is color-blind! I agree with Softwind you don't have to be in a Church to talk to God and I think most prayers occur outside of Church but it is nice to have someplace to converge where everyone is there to do one thing talk with God. Nice thread thanks for the interesting and meaningful conversation.
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Old 10-30-2007, 01:52 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by softwind View Post
Today is Sunday, and I was just wondering who all out there goes to church?? Is it native or non-native and do you enjoy going, just what makes it special to you??
I've been a born again beliver for 21 years now and I attend a church in Fullerton, CA called Evengelical Free Church of Fullerton.
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Old 10-31-2007, 05:13 PM   #24
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Hey NOAda, when you prayed for your van to start for you to go to church, did you ask to be able to go to church and get back home again?

I and my family di go to church as we are able to go. We aren't home every weekend. We just returned from a very good dance in McAllen TX. During this vacation we were able to go to church with our friends. Our good friend Robert Soto is a Minister and lilves his life for the Lord. I have yet observed him being a hipocrit. We can't judge the Christian world on the deeds of men. We as men aren't perfect which is why we go to church. I too enjoy being outside and having my talk with the Lord. I believe I can talk to the Lord where ever I am. I hunt and give thanks to the Lord for allowing me to kill the animal in season. I thank the animal for giving itself for my family eat.

I have no reasonable idea why we as NDN people can't be a Christian and practice our NDN ways. Aren't Our ways putting the Lord first. We have prayers and songs(which are mostly prayers) for most eveything. Our elders used to pray for their enemy to die with honor in battle, pray for the animals we hunt, etc.. I believe that I can be an NDN and Christain at the same time.
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Old 10-31-2007, 05:42 PM   #25
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Here's another way of asking a question about this issue. Do you have to be a christian to have a relationship with GOD(Creator)? Its a big old fat NO in my book. I worship my way and I also have respect for others, including all of you here that don't. I would just hope and pray that everyone finds a way in life that is good and pure and feeds their soul, without the use of drugs/alcohol.
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Old 10-31-2007, 09:57 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE View Post
Hey NOAda, when you prayed for your van to start for you to go to church, did you ask to be able to go to church and get back home again?

I and my family di go to church as we are able to go. We aren't home every weekend. We just returned from a very good dance in McAllen TX. During this vacation we were able to go to church with our friends. Our good friend Robert Soto is a Minister and lilves his life for the Lord. I have yet observed him being a hipocrit. We can't judge the Christian world on the deeds of men. We as men aren't perfect which is why we go to church. I too enjoy being outside and having my talk with the Lord. I believe I can talk to the Lord where ever I am. I hunt and give thanks to the Lord for allowing me to kill the animal in season. I thank the animal for giving itself for my family eat.

I have no reasonable idea why we as NDN people can't be a Christian and practice our NDN ways. Aren't Our ways putting the Lord first. We have prayers and songs(which are mostly prayers) for most eveything. Our elders used to pray for their enemy to die with honor in battle, pray for the animals we hunt, etc.. I believe that I can be an NDN and Christain at the same time.
Now that you mention it Cherosage, I did ask to be able to get to church, but didn't ask about getting back home again...

I'm encouraged to hear so many folks saying it's OK to be NDN and Christian. I know folks who would say it can't be both. Some feel that Christianity is the "white man's religion" and incompatible with NDN ways. Others would say that if you become a Christian, you have to give up your native ways. The church I go to is a lot like the latter. Folks there know I'm NDN, but I have made a point to not talk about powwowing and other traditions - I know that a lot of folks wouldn't get it and others would flat out disapprove.

I think there is a lot to be gained from regular gathering with others of like faith. The Bible would teach that we are not to "forsake the assembling of ourselves together." I don't think that means being there every Sunday. There are circumstances (travel, work, illness, powwows) where we might find ourselves elsewhere on a Sunday. I think being on a one-to-one basis with the Creator in prayer and meditation and worship is more important - and you can do that anywhere, anytime.

And being out in nature IS a perfect place to talk to the Creator, because...

"The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world."

Psalm 19

To WW's question - I would say that God wants us all to have a relationship with Him and with his Son. I was taught that Creator and His Son (Jesus) are one and the same - you can't have a relationship with one without having one with the other. This is in NO WAY a statement meant to offend or demean anyone's traditional ways of worship.

Cherosage mentioned Robert Soto, and he has a really nice website where he shows how Christianity and Nativeness can be compatible and celebrated jointly. Here's a link if you want to check it out.

Son Tree Native Path - English
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Old 10-31-2007, 10:16 PM   #27
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To WW's question - I would say that God wants us all to have a relationship with Him and with his Son. I was taught that Creator and His Son (Jesus) are one and the same - you can't have a relationship with one without having one with the other. This is in NO WAY a statement meant to offend or demean anyone's traditional ways of worship.



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I respect what you believe. I was raised in a christian family, so I know what you are speaking of, it is not foreign to me. However, that is not my belief now, and I find that even more so now; to have a one on one relationship with the creator, makes me a better person, mother and wife. I believe no man can or will be equal to God, ever. That is my problem with christianity, amoung other things.
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Old 10-31-2007, 10:35 PM   #28
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I used to go to church

and it taught me to study, research, learn, not just accept what anyone or anything says at face value and that included the bible.
There is no doubt the bible has been altered to fit many religions, and truly religion is only man's interpretation of God. There is a recurring basic theme, one single element that does not change in the bible, but few have ever recognized it. The very basic teaching is so simple, and that is to love God and love one another. That is the one and only message the prophets, Jesus came to give. It is the many religions that have skewed it to manipulate the masses for their own gain. There was never to be rules/regulations doctrine, dogma, rites or rituals. All of those things were added by the religious leaders of the time. You wont hear this in churches anywhere, they do not want you to think for yourself, they dont want you to know the answers are all in you, that you dont need a preacher/priest to teach you anything. Everything you need is already inside you. If they taught this what do you think would happen to the huge money making machine churches of today? The kingdom in inside you. There is no hell. You do not have to be saved. You are loved just as you are, and its up to you to do the same. Love. There are no colors, religions, sex, creed, there is only love.
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Old 10-31-2007, 10:48 PM   #29
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im thinking this is nice ppl saying what thay think about thier faith ,i was church for a lot of years,and found that the church is a place one can live there life in comunity i grew well and recoverd a lot of my self there,i travle as a missary in one time and learned more from the ppl who were at the other end of the trip i met ppl who lived deep in the mountins of mexico and are indian we help paint there church that had dirt floors and very humble i met a leader of these ppl and gave peaches to there children,i help them wash their wash in a stream and I sat wrong on my heels and got mud on my skirt, a woman then helped me wash my skirt, i travle up a mountian to have lunch with a woman who came up and down that mountin every day ,we sat on her porch that was a shear drop to the botton and thay feed me ,i held her child. and this is where i learned of the fathers and the mothers love it was on a mountian , in a church, in a indian village and in the cross country van ride . yea i have some faith, i have seen the love
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Old 10-31-2007, 11:28 PM   #30
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I respect what you believe. I was raised in a christian family, so I know what you are speaking of, it is not foreign to me. However, that is not my belief now, and I find that even more so now; to have a one on one relationship with the creator, makes me a better person, mother and wife. I believe no man can or will be equal to God, ever. That is my problem with christianity, amoung other things.
Alot of people think that it is all about these religious acts, that people do to make them selfs good, but it is not about religious acts it is all about a personal relationship. When we pray we are talking to our father in heaven. He reminds us in the bible that we are all but dust. Chief Josph said that life is but a cricket running along a blade of grass, and so does the bible say just the same thing that life is but a vapor.
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Old 11-01-2007, 08:02 PM   #31
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Ahhhhhhhh when I first saw this thread, I was like oh jeesh, not another thread bout religion and different peoples beliefs. After being here for many years, ya kinda seen it all... But as I have stated before and time and time again, my truest beliefs are in my traditional ways. And, I mean in ALL ways, not just religion. ADA, ya know, I am going to tell you the same thing that I have told my son, many of times. Some of you know that I have been sick for a long time with an incurable disease. My son knows this and he's been soooo good in dealing with it at such a young age. But one day after a powwow, he sat there crying. I asked him what was wrong. He explained to me he didn't want to dance any more because I didn't get any better. He asked me how can I dance for you if you don't get any better? How can I pray for you if you don't get any better? Why are you becoming sicker? What is the point? The first thing I asked him was if he had any faith? Do you believe in your heart that what you are doing is making me feel good? I told him every time I do see him dance, it does take the pain away for those moments. Everytime I know he's dancing for me, it makes me feel good. Just because I may not feel good other days does not mean that his prayers aren't working. I had to explain to him that my disease is for life but to see him dance has been the best medicine possible. So you see ADA, its a matter of faith of what you truly believe. Prayers aren't always answered in materialism, prayers are answered in what you truly believe. Even in our Native ways, I was told never to pray for something, you give thanks for what you receive. Every morning I get up and offer our Dii'yin (aka gods) corn pollen and give thanks to everything I have. Everyday and everything I live in is harmony, within myself and all around me. Yes, I have been 'lucky' to get out of situations but I truly believe that its my faith to believe everything will be alright no matter what happens. But the faith and belief is not just what it means in the bible, its all about life, in general. I don't condone anyone in the church, for some its a good thing. However, I am deep in my own traditional ways, which I consider our dii'yin and creators the same as god. To each our own, I say, what ever works the best for you. However, just keep the faith and beliefs that everything will work out no matter how hard it truly gets.
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Old 11-08-2007, 12:50 AM   #32
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I believe that we as NDN people are as Godly as anyone else and probably more at ease with God than most.

I can sing, dance and Stomp while at the same time being a Christian. This is simple for me to put these two things together as one. Why do we have to meet a European concept of this belief of Christianity. I have Cuz's who will not have a thing to do with Christianity just because the Missionaries from Europe were so cruel, on a whole, in the past. We were supposed to be heathens just because of the way we revered the same God. I have heard that the Mormons believe we are a lost Tribe of Isreal. I'm not sure about this concept but I know we know things inherently and I believe this insight comes from the Lord, God, no matter what language you want to use. I know several Ministers who are NDN and maintain their NDN ways.
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:25 AM   #33
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I really appreciate what you said, Nezbah, about your faith. I think you have shown a good example by being able to encourage your son, even in the face of what might seem discouraging circumstances.

Cherosage, I agree that there is an inherent understanding of God by NDN people, and I find it interesting that, for example, my people tell a story about a great flood, similar to the story in the Bible. This story was told before European missionaries arrived.
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Old 11-08-2007, 10:02 AM   #34
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If you want to go to a structured church, go. Good for you.

If you find your faith outdoors, that's good too.

If you find it in the lodge, that's good.

It's all good.

While I believe in prayer, I believe also that you have to do for yourself. If your vehicle doesn't start, fix it. The Creator didn't make motor vehicle engines, man did. It's up to humans to repair cars. Be thankful you have a car to fix. Many don't.

Just be thankful.
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Old 11-09-2007, 05:01 PM   #35
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i continue to believe catholics and christians are worse than todays terrorists. i dont even think its a fair comparison. these people have killed and destroyed more than they ever will.

i know my way and live it. i cannot see how other natives can be this other way. if i had to break it down even further my way is a tangent and the white way is a radius. and so there is just no way.
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Old 11-13-2007, 09:42 PM   #36
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i continue to believe catholics and christians are worse than todays terrorists. i dont even think its a fair comparison. these people have killed and destroyed more than they ever will.

i know my way and live it. i cannot see how other natives can be this other way. if i had to break it down even further my way is a tangent and the white way is a radius. and so there is just no way.
Don't put all of us Christians in the same boat with the bad guys who call them selves Christians. I am a Christian, that does not mean that I feel that I am holy of holy know, it to me is all about my faith in Christ and as for the Catholics I am sure they feel the same way about their faith.

Remember there is good and bad in all people and in all faiths even in yours. I know plenty of native people who have killed their own kind. My cousin got killed when he was only 30 and his girlfriend also by their own kind. So don't attack someones faith and say it causes evil.
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Old 11-14-2007, 04:28 PM   #37
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I come from a long line of Creek methodist ministers. So there was no question about if I was getting up on Sunday morning for church. Pleasant memories fill my mind of waking up to the smell of grandma in the kitchen frying chicken, my great grandma making blue dumplings and sour cornbread, I onlly call them by the english names because I can't spell them in Creek. Sitting in church and watchin my grandpa preach in Creek and watchin the elder ladies of the church in their usual places. Watchin everyone shoo away yellowjackets. If it was too hot we'd have church under the arbor outside. Sneaking off in the afternoons with my cousins and picking persimmons or wild grapes. Wild onion dinners.....just a few of the earthly perks combiined with going to church. God is real....hes real in my heart. Its not a white man thing. I pray everyday and night and he answers my prayers.
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Old 11-14-2007, 04:56 PM   #38
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I don't go to church, nor do I believe or follow organized religion. I do believe in a higher power whom I choose to call the creator.
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Old 11-14-2007, 08:01 PM   #39
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to whomever im glad you bought into these foreign organizations. its just the rules and how do i say it.. the structure of it all. and, to just to top it off you have to really believe some heinous B.S. like what you say..?

hmm hollywood made a movie about the noahs ridiculous arc this year. believe what you want buts its not possible to cram all the species into an arc. call it a reality check or whatever but it just shows you in your face the sillyness. so you have faith that nice. borrow a billion bucks and gather all the species and build an arc and let the blood bath begin. oh yeah somehow flood the earth while yer at it.
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Old 11-15-2007, 01:03 AM   #40
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Let's see what does faith mean, I guess to each of us it means something different.

I would say for Me it means Unquestioning beleif, in my way, and my way is not everybody's way. But I do know that when I pray, I know that he hears, I have a Peace that the world can not give me and man can not give me. I have been sick and he has healed me, I suffered for years when I was younger with terrible anxiety attacks and I am talking bad, then one day when I had a really bad one I fell on my knees crying and begged Lord please take this from me and he did. I love him for that if my God never done anything else for me he healed me. Not to mention in my way it is free all I have to do is believe, it is not of my works, or my past or if I have been so good. All he has asked me to do is believe that he is the son of God and that he died and paid the penalty for my sins on the cross and rose again from the grave and to me in my opinion, if that is all I have to do after all he has done for me, what have I got to loose.

So let's just say what if after all my faith, in the end I do not see heaven will I have lost anything know, because if it does not exsit then it does not. But just what if it does exsit and his way is the way, then all I can say is Thank you God, I went for the prize and I made it.
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