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Old 01-30-2006, 01:27 PM   #61
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Old 01-30-2006, 04:46 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo_rose
I think everyone who finds out something from their ancestry gets very interested in it. Most then let it go.

When I found out my grandmother's great-grandmother was 1/4 Irish, I thought, "How interesting!" , and figured I had the right to get drunk on St. Patty's day.

I think that makes me 1/128th Irish. That means only 1 out of my 128 great-great-great-great-great grandparents was Irish. Shall I claim Irish and dishonor my other 127 great*5-grandparents?

When I hear about people claiming 1/16th native I have to think: What were your other 15 great-great grandparents???
That is a very good point about honoring all parts of your ancestry, I agree totally. I am probably pretty average (for a white guy) in that I have a big variety in my heritage. I love to dance in local powwows and also like to participate in the Highland games to honor my Scot ancestry.( I gave up booze about 10 yrs ago so my Irish ancestors are screwed! lol). I don’t claim to be an Indian but still like to honor that part of me.
I think a lot of the problem are the people who claim to be “Indian” cause they thinks it’s cool or something. I bet they are sure to put “Caucasian” on their job applications!
The point of this thread was about the fakes making money and screwing over Indians who don’t have much room left to give. I always buy stuff that has a census tag or some means to identify it.
I bought a book I thought was about Cherokee history online, and it ended up being some new age B.S. written by some “Indian” who looked whiter than me!
I sure hope I’m not offending anyone when I go to powwow’s. I’ve never had anyone say anything anyways. I can say for sure that has been good for my kids to be exposed to Indian culture.(not just the frybread either!)

By the way- from info online the average blood quantum for the Cherokee Nation of OK is 1/128, they have registered members with a BIA white card that have a quantum of 1/2048

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Old 01-30-2006, 05:51 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by kiowakat
well my opinion I really don't think this post was suppose to be about religion but it always comes down to that....anyways I know for a fact that this thread goes something thing like this....first off this is how we cater to these non ndns and wannabe's. We are forced to see 3 older museums being closed Anadarko (Kiowa), Browning( Sioux, and a montana museum, these are federal funded museums The money that will be taken from these museums is presently being ear marked for law enforcment. To fight indian arts and crafts conterfeiting....DO TO ALL FRAUDS AND FAKES now we as native people wanting to see and know that our grandparents and elders legency live on. we have to suffer. It is being taken away from us because people can't be proud of their own heritage..Its not all about religion but like I said it aways ends up there.. I feel we have others things to deal with besides just religion.
Ok maybe we should make a distinction on some of these folks from the wannabes (who really feel they are native because of one ancestor or because of self esteem or whatever) to the new age frauds and charlatans. You know, the one's who want the spirituality from the one's who just see us as some kind of cash cow that they can harness. The latter I can't call wannabes cause they are'nt really wanting to be indians, just want to take advantage of the wannabes and those searching for something more in their lives. I despise those kind intensely.
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Old 01-30-2006, 07:02 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unegatowodi
By the way- from info online the average blood quantum for the Cherokee Nation of OK is 1/128, they have registered members with a BIA white card that have a quantum of 1/2048
Whoa!! 1/2048th means they had one great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandparent that was full blood Cherokee and the other 2,047 great*9 grandparents weren't!!!
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Old 01-30-2006, 07:14 PM   #65
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I think I was misunderstood when I said to accept. I don't mean to accept and whatevery you accepted is law. If someone were to come up to me and say they were a Native Chief, Healer, whatever, I would accept that they say so and who am I to judge. That doesn't mean they are. Accept to avoid hate, but don't be mislead. As a soldier who has fought in combat, I must follow orders from some who don't really know what their doing, but I must because I'm a soldier. I will make adjustments to accomplish the mission and keep my soldiers safe. Native Americans have always had War Chiefs, Tribal Chiefs, Healers, Honored Elders who lead. We accept their advice. Two key words, ADVICE and ACCEPT. But no where were their words really law. We can accept what they say but we are free to follow our own heart. If someone claims something, accept, but until your heart tells you something else. You don't have to call anyone a liar. You don't have to follow, listen, or obey. Each person is only responsible to and for themselves. Follow your heart. Live in peace with others and within yourself. Some of this seems to be from jealousy. Some Full Bloods don't seem to want us Mixed Bloods to become part of the Greater Circle. A house devided against itself can not stand. Our strenght lies in unity and acceptance of each other. Check the news, other ethic groups have more say in this country than us because we can't seem to come together. Think about it.
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Old 01-30-2006, 07:32 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo_rose
Whoa!! 1/2048th means they had one great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandparent that was full blood Cherokee and the other 2,047 great*9 grandparents weren't!!!
Wild isn't it. On the other end of the spectrum I read something about the Seneca of New York that says your mother has to be in the tribe for you to be a member. It was written by a full blood man that married a white woman and his 1/2 blood children could not register. I'm not sure if it is true or not. Not trying to get off topic, but I guess issues can be complicated.
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Old 01-30-2006, 07:46 PM   #67
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I think honoring all you are is ok. There are alot of mixed blood's. THAT shouldn't matter. I'm still om my quest to find out about the other cultures I was born with. In a way, I'm glad I'm mixed because I like variety anyway.
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Old 01-30-2006, 09:05 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear
Ok maybe we should make a distinction on some of these folks from the wannabes (who really feel they are native because of one ancestor or because of self esteem or whatever) to the new age frauds and charlatans. You know, the one's who want the spirituality from the one's who just see us as some kind of cash cow that they can harness. The latter I can't call wannabes cause they are'nt really wanting to be indians, just want to take advantage of the wannabes and those searching for something more in their lives. I despise those kind intensely.
Well said
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Old 01-30-2006, 09:08 PM   #69
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Old 01-30-2006, 10:02 PM   #70
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Old 01-30-2006, 10:18 PM   #71
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Old 01-30-2006, 10:38 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear
Ok maybe we should make a distinction on some of these folks from the wannabes (who really feel they are native because of one ancestor or because of self esteem or whatever) to the new age frauds and charlatans. You know, the one's who want the spirituality from the one's who just see us as some kind of cash cow that they can harness. The latter I can't call wannabes cause they are'nt really wanting to be indians, just want to take advantage of the wannabes and those searching for something more in their lives. I despise those kind intensely.

This post may sound stupid since I’m one of the wannabe‘s, but…….
On a practical note, anyone have any ideas on weeding out the worst of fakers and rip-off artists. I know I can tell who the real Indians are, and I know the real Indians know the difference, and I know the general public will NEVER know the difference. So….

I personally try to support native communities with how I spend my money. I went to Cherokee,NC in 2002 and shopped the Qualla Arts and Crafts Mutual, the rest of the entire town was hokey tourist traps. When I went to Pine Ridge in 2004 we bought stuff at the Lakota Trade Center, and I have bought some stuff online from some of their artists. (Pine Ridge was a hard place to vacation, we only ran across 2 restaurants, and were the hell was the Wal-Mart. lol). Fixing this problem is going to take a lot more than one white guy like me who tries to be responsible.

I suspect some of the problem is happening because the huge interest here in the east. I very seldom feel out of place at powwows because I am often the most Indian dancer there. (No, really, I’m not kidding. lol) I never want to be part of the problem, but I REALLY like to dance!

Any ideas?
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Old 01-30-2006, 10:45 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unegatowodi
Wild isn't it. On the other end of the spectrum I read something about the Seneca of New York that says your mother has to be in the tribe for you to be a member. It was written by a full blood man that married a white woman and his 1/2 blood children could not register. I'm not sure if it is true or not. Not trying to get off topic, but I guess issues can be complicated.
TRaditional Haudenosaunee way of determining your tribe and clan is through the mother only. You are what your mother is. Most of us have a blood quantum requirement but not the Seneca Nation of Indians (not to be confused with the Tonawanda Seneca or the Seneca Cayuga of OK). They just stick to the matrilineal descent which is .. if your mom is, then you are. But believe me, there's plenty of full blooded seneca among them.
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Old 01-30-2006, 10:46 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear
TRaditional Haudenosaunee way of determining your tribe and clan is through the mother only. You are what your mother is. Most of us have a blood quantum requirement but not the Seneca Nation of Indians (not to be confused with the Tonawanda Seneca or the Seneca Cayuga of OK). They just stick to the matrilineal descent which is .. if your mom is, then you are. But believe me, there's plenty of full blooded seneca among them.
there sure is :-)
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Old 01-30-2006, 10:57 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unegatowodi
This post may sound stupid since I’m one of the wannabe‘s, but…….
On a practical note, anyone have any ideas on weeding out the worst of fakers and rip-off artists. I know I can tell who the real Indians are, and I know the real Indians know the difference, and I know the general public will NEVER know the difference. So….

I personally try to support native communities with how I spend my money. I went to Cherokee,NC in 2002 and shopped the Qualla Arts and Crafts Mutual, the rest of the entire town was hokey tourist traps. When I went to Pine Ridge in 2004 we bought stuff at the Lakota Trade Center, and I have bought some stuff online from some of their artists. (Pine Ridge was a hard place to vacation, we only ran across 2 restaurants, and were the hell was the Wal-Mart. lol). Fixing this problem is going to take a lot more than one white guy like me who tries to be responsible.

I suspect some of the problem is happening because the huge interest here in the east. I very seldom feel out of place at powwows because I am often the most Indian dancer there. (No, really, I’m not kidding. lol) I never want to be part of the problem, but I REALLY like to dance!

Any ideas?
These guys started out even as far back as the sixties when the Hippies were exploring other cultures and religions to find their higher calling, purpose.. whatever. It's just that now with people wanting to be healthy and unstressed and finding no purpose in life, or wanting a new purpose... they will seek out anything that says they are peaceful. And some of these guys are very convinceing .. especially to those that don't know jack squat... some even believe in their own bull.

I like sharing my culture and stories and history of my people.. and especially crafts.. but I hate that guys like this make me think twice or more all the time about who i talk to less they take it and turn it into something for themselves for profit or whatever. And I used to like to learn of other's religions, beliefs, ways.. but now I'm afraid to ask others about them but I'm more afraid to offend by not knowing and saying something wrong.
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Old 01-30-2006, 11:06 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear
These guys started out even as far back as the sixties when the Hippies were exploring other cultures and religions to find their higher calling, purpose.. whatever. It's just that now with people wanting to be healthy and unstressed and finding no purpose in life, or wanting a new purpose... they will seek out anything that says they are peaceful. And some of these guys are very convinceing .. especially to those that don't know jack squat... some even believe in their own bull.

I like sharing my culture and stories and history of my people.. and especially crafts.. but I hate that guys like this make me think twice or more all the time about who i talk to less they take it and turn it into something for themselves for profit or whatever. And I used to like to learn of other's religions, beliefs, ways.. but now I'm afraid to ask others about them but I'm more afraid to offend by not knowing and saying something wrong.
i dont like it when non ndn's tell me that im wrong lol had a woman tell me i was wrong for calling myself indian said it was "native american"
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Old 01-30-2006, 11:16 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unegatowodi
Fixing this problem is going to take a lot more than one white guy like me who tries to be responsible.
I know i threw a rather convoluted statement/question out to start this thread but between the second half of blackbear "one's who just see us as some kind of cash cow that they can harness. The latter I can't call wannabes cause they are'nt really wanting to be indians, just want to take advantage of the wannabes and those searching for something more in their lives. I despise those kind intensely."
and the quote I used from unegatowodi sums it up best what I'm truly driving at. Some form of Native awareness program needs to go on in these non native areas, of course that will run into all sorts of problem in definition so i throw my hands in the air lol. (now i got a craving for popcorn lmao)
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Old 01-31-2006, 12:12 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear
These guys started out even as far back as the sixties when the Hippies were exploring other cultures and religions to find their higher calling, purpose.. whatever. It's just that now with people wanting to be healthy and unstressed and finding no purpose in life, or wanting a new purpose... they will seek out anything that says they are peaceful. And some of these guys are very convinceing .. especially to those that don't know jack squat... some even believe in their own bull.

I like sharing my culture and stories and history of my people.. and especially crafts.. but I hate that guys like this make me think twice or more all the time about who i talk to less they take it and turn it into something for themselves for profit or whatever. And I used to like to learn of other's religions, beliefs, ways.. but now I'm afraid to ask others about them but I'm more afraid to offend by not knowing and saying something wrong.
It's been said that Arnold Joseph was the perfect hippie back in the 60's cuz all the hippies wanted to be Indians!
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


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Old 01-31-2006, 01:03 AM   #79
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*munches more Popcorn* hmmm...needs salt...
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Old 01-31-2006, 03:45 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe's Dad
It's been said that Arnold Joseph was the perfect hippie back in the 60's cuz all the hippies wanted to be Indians!


Yep, that's true.
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