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Old 06-30-2016, 04:04 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leach View Post
I think the DNA tests are good at letting you know if you actually carry the Native marker. However, any result 1% and under could definitely be an error.
The error bars are significantly larger on those results -- particularly for some areas and some ethnic groups. Hype for these highly profitable tests sounds a lot more confident that many of my colleagues in bio-research labs are about their results.

Sense About Science's fact sheet on genetic ancestry testing

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Originally Posted by Leach View Post
DNA testing is also debunking many "full blooded" stories. There is one woman on a forum whose grandfather was a tribal member recognized as full blood . She definitely returned the Native American markers on her results. But only at 9%. She should've gotten closer to 25% if he was full blooded.

Another Native tested himself and returned 76% Native American. Then had his daughter tested, and she only scored 11%. This prompted him to have a paternal DNA test done to verify that she's his daughter. And she was. lol
Too many people are misled by their high school bio experience with Mendel's peas. Meiosis doesn't split your genes like the green half of one of Gregor's pea's. The gametes that made you may get much less or much more of the parental "Native" markers when the gene's divide. These percentages are well within the variations observed for an individual with a "full-blood" Native grandfather and the daughter of a (just for the hell of it, let's assume the precent for dad is right) "3/4 blood."

But let's step back for a minute and look at what this means. In Native communities, limited resources, imposed colonial systems, tribal constitutions, waves of wannabes, fractionated land holdings, etc. have created a situation where there are real legal and sometimes finical effects to being in or out. Enrolled you can legally possess certain protected animal parts or plants needed for religious ceremonies. In, you can pray without fear of arrest; out, you can't. In, you can inherit your father's land; out, you can't. No other ethnic group in America faces the same dilemma.

You see an amusing tale about a woman who isn't as what? Real? Authentic? Native enough for the dominant culture? I see a scientific technique which is not fully formed yet, poorly understood by most and very politically dangerous. Imagine that this woman has lived her life participating in her community, being fully enculturated in its ways. Now she is diminished in someway -- at least in your eyes -- because she didn't have as many single nucleotide polymorphisms. What happens when that diminishment occurs before those in her tribe's political structure that have an axe to grind?

Defining membership is a key aspect of being a sovereign entity. All Nations define their standards of citizenship. However this bulwark can become a powerful weapon, particularly in small communities, where the governing and the governed are on much more intimate terms. For Native nations within the US, our activities on this front are more closely watched and judged than ever after the Cherokee Freedmen. We who grew up with fading but long shadow of termination, know what can happen if the political tides turn against the tribes.
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Last edited by OLChemist; 06-30-2016 at 07:19 PM.. Reason: Spelling
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Old 06-30-2016, 04:51 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
The error bars are significantly larger on those results -- particularly for some areas and some ethnic groups. Hype for these highly profitable tests sounds a lot more confident that many of my colleagues in bio-research labs are about their results.

Sense About Science's fact sheet on genetic ancestry testing



Too many people are misled by their high school bio experience with Mendel's peas. Meiosis doesn't split your genes like the green half of one of Gregor's pea's. The gametes that made you may get much less or much more of the parental "Native" markers when the gene's divide. These percentages are well within the variations observed for an individual with a "full-blood" Native grandfather and the daughter of a (just for the hell of it, let's assume the precent for dad is right) "3/4 blood."

But let's step back for a minute and look at what this means. In Native communities, limited resources, imposed colonial systems, tribal constitutions, waves of wannabes, fractionated land holdings, etc. have created a situation where there are real legal and sometimes finical effects to being in or out. Enrolled you can legally possess certain protected animal parts or plants needed for religious ceremonies. In you can pray without fear of arrest; out you can't. In you can inherit your father's land; out you can't. No other ethnic group in America faces the same dilemma.

You see an amusing tale about a woman who isn't as what? Real? Authentic? Native enough for the dominant culture? I see a scientific technique which is not fully formed yet, poorly understood by most and very politically dangerous. Image that this woman has lived her life participating in her community, being fully enculturated in its ways. Now she is diminished in someway -- at least in your eyes -- because she didn't have as many single nucleotide polymorphisms. What happens when that diminishment occurs before those in her tribe's political structure that have an axe to grind?

Defining membership is a key aspect of being a sovereign entity. All Nations define their standards of citizenship. However this bulwark can become a powerful weapon, particularly in small communities, where the governing and the governed are on much more intimate terms. For Native nations within the US, our activities on this front are more closely watched and judged than ever after the Cherokee Freedmen. We who grew up with fading but long shadow of termination, know what can happen if the political tides turn against the tribes.
You misunderstood me. I didn't and don't see that woman as someone who isn't Native enough or is a wannabe, etc. If anything I see that DNA testing doesn't match with documentation sometimes. It's expected. If she was 9%
Native with a fully Native grandfather, it makes sense that I returned 4% with a great grandmother who I know was a mixed blood black/native woman.

I'm fully aware of genetic recombination. I am fully aware that no ones guaranteed 25% from each grandparent , or 12% from each great grandparent. It's all randomly selected and even two people with the same mom and dad can end up with different distributions.

It's all just interesting. And DNA testing does work. I have s friend who knows his ancestry quite well, his mother is biracial black/white and his dad is fully Guyanese.

He transferred his results to GEDMatch, which has a tool which guesses the origins of your four grandparents. It returned: afrocaribbean+afrocaribbean+english+African

It perfectly guessed his grandparents origins. Guyana is in the Caribbean, and his white grandmother is from the UK.

DNA testing isn't perfect but it's effective. I think it's really put to th test when people such as my friend take it. Not saying every result will be flawless, but it's clearly not a bunch of randomly selected answers either. Especially if you transfer your raw DNA to a free third party app like GEDMatch.
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Old 06-30-2016, 05:04 PM   #43
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And I also believe culture trumps DNA. For instance, many biracial black/white people identify simply as Black. Biologically, this is incomplete identification and only half of who they are. But if they feel more at home in this community, if that's where they were raised, that is essentially who they are.

Of course if they took a DNA test and found that they were actually more white than Black biologically (which does happen), it wouldn't change their upbringing and identification unless they decided to.
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Old 06-30-2016, 06:02 PM   #44
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I am 1/16th native and I have no resemblance of any kind whatsoever, I have no idea how you can be 1/25th and have people frequently telling you you look native. That is fairly impressive.
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Old 06-30-2016, 06:30 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Niigig View Post
I am 1/16th native and I have no resemblance of any kind whatsoever, I have no idea how you can be 1/25th and have people frequently telling you you look native. That is fairly impressive.
I'm 1/25th based on a DNA test which is subject to error. But I pulled cousin matches on ancestryDna that are 15-30% Native. So it's all a toss up when looking at those numbers. Then of course genotype vs phenotype.

I am half mom half dad ideally speaking. But I look exactly like my mother. And my mother looked exactly like her grandmother, my great grandma Chief.

Grandma Chief had extremely strong features. I think this is where my connection comes from. I look just like her, even though we are 2 generations apart. My friends say I could pass as her son lol.

Last edited by Leach; 06-30-2016 at 06:33 PM..
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Old 06-30-2016, 10:08 PM   #46
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Did you have the cheek swab, spit vial, or blood test? I started with the swab, did the spit vial to confirm, and did the blood draw on a recommendation from one of the ancestry reps. Apparently their quality / accuracy scales up from swab to vial to blood draw, in that order. The blood draw ranges in price from $400-$1,200 depending on a lot of different factors, but is the most accurate, mine was only $500 because I already had genetic info from the previous tests. The cheek swab was the most obscure, telling me I had anywhere from 12.5% to 25% "indigenous north american" ancestry... Meaning anything from Mexican to northern Canadian. They don't dig very far with those. The ancestry test is a spit vial test that gives you a little more accuracy, however, instead of giving you the actual possible range, they tend to round all of your makeup together in a vague median manner that equates to 100%... Meaning they aren't telling you exactly how much of each nationality you have in you, they are basically guessing what it could possibly be, and fairly wide, vague regions, meaning they might tell you Cherokee just because they are the most numerous peoples in that particular region. The ancestry test didn't actually tell me any tribes, just regions. When I asked specifically, they hazarded a guess on Sioux based on the region, and that ended up lining up with predetermined genetics (grandfather was Lakota Sioux) as well as the blood draw test. They didn't catch the Salish I am rumored to have, but it is minuscule and no paperwork to back it up. If you can find a company with an office nearby enough to have a blood draw done, I'd do it, if you are really interested in knowing the closest percentages and regions for sure. For me, because I am a ginger-kissed albino bleach-water snowman, having these official-looking genetics documents is literally my only way to lay any claim to my heritage whatsoever. Nobody would ever believe me otherwise, and while I am learning to be more comfortable in my tragically white skin, I occasionally do feel a need to have something that is like "Look! See? I really do have native blood!" if even just to shut up bullies at horse camp, LOL. Because I personally have had 4 completely different DNA tests done which all had near-identical results, I can tell you for a fact, anyone whining that DNA testing doesn't work is someone who didn't get the results that they wanted, or someone who was disappointed when their blond-haired archenemy ended up being part Crow after all. The science behind it is very sound, and it works. It has been used and proven effective many, many times. And the more different tests you get to back each other up, the more genetic proof you have of what you are.
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Old 07-01-2016, 01:33 AM   #47
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I pretty much did the AncestryDNA test and then FTDNA, then GEDMatch. All returned similar results.

AncestryDNA has connected me to a few of my Native cousins. Those who are mostly Native American. As you can see, this cousin match has NA as their top ancestral result.

These are the types of matches that I was expecting if I truly had Native blood. I was looking for cousin matches who were fully or at least predominately Native American. I have a few of them in my DNA match list.

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Old 07-01-2016, 04:54 PM   #48
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There was a guy named 'Cooter' on Dukes of Hazard.

Buck n Cooter sounds about right.
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