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Forum Home - Go Back > Off Topic > Chit Chat Need help on setting the record straight regarding exploiting what is sacred. Need help on setting the record straight regarding exploiting what is sacred.

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Old 03-29-2006, 02:32 AM   #1
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Angry Need help on setting the record straight regarding exploiting what is sacred.

Sorry to bother you all. I will make this brief. 10 months ago I joined the message board for a place called Universal Life Church where people can become ordained from any background to perform weddings.

The topic of Vision Quests came up and a group of wiccans and other new agers said some off color things and implied a Vision Quest could be done in a brief amount of minutes within one's living room. They also implied a number of other things such as other cultural backgrounds having had vision quests in their culture which has existed for a longer period of time, supposingly. Although I am not of the first nation, I felt what they were saying was unjust and tried to defend in favor of them leaving first nation traditions alone. But only one first nation man was on the board and sided with me. The topic got shut down and the moderator said for us to take a break from the topic. I was obviously out numbered.

I've decided to continue the discussion and would very much appreciate it if any one from this forum would be willing to lend their expert opinion on the matter so they could hear it from a first nation perspective. I was outnumbered before and don't think I was able to accurately able to defend it as well as any of you could.

Here is the link to the original string: http://forum.ulc.net/index.php?showtopic=24911

Here is the link to the new string:
http://forum.ulc.net/index.php?showtopic=51082


Thank you for your time in reading this.

Sincerely,
Staci
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Old 03-29-2006, 02:38 AM   #2
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Cool, I'm gonna check it out. Yea right- a vision quest in a few min in your living room!
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Old 03-29-2006, 03:37 AM   #3
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Thanks Virginia! -hug-
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Old 03-29-2006, 04:47 AM   #4
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Just goes to show you, that we can never really get the recognition we deserve. They can try have a vision quest in their living room, and I will pray maybe one of my mean deceased relatives, pays a visit......:
just kidding of course.
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Old 03-29-2006, 06:37 AM   #5
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That does'nt sound like Wiccans to me. That sounds like New Agers (nuagers). New Agers like to blend pagen religions together and smatter it with a small dose of Christianity and a heapin' helpin' of Homeade Rules and Rites (aka buhsheet).

I don't know if Wiccans have visionquests, but I highly doubt they would tell you they can do it in a matter of minutes in the living room considering that religion is based on nature and is highly ritualistic and take their time on matters.

Don't bother bringing people over there to fight this fight... The hardest people to change their minds are those that think that they are religious right. Leaders of indian nations will point out the frauds to their followers and they will still fight tooth and nail that this person has power and knows the real way ... just get out while you can and have nothing more to do with people like that. They got a real good way of getting you to obsess over them with anger and you don't need that do you?
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Old 03-29-2006, 07:35 AM   #6
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I understand and respect what you say, BlackBear. I just got flustered that they weren't seeing what they're saying is not right. I see that there is no way to really change their mind and it may be safe to say their heads are perminantly fixated up their rear. They really did mention a living room, and that a vision could be acquired in a brief period of time. Though I suppose that is besides the point. Thanks for your reply and input regarding the matter.
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Old 03-29-2006, 12:34 PM   #7
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CLilIrishG,

Indian spirituality is something that SHOULD NOT be debated. It is something "many of us" would rather not have shared with people who want to dissect, analyze and redicule, if they have no respect for it.

This is not their belief, so of course they are going to corrupt something they know nothing about. Don't arm them with any information. Let them wallow in their ignorance.

Especially DO NOT share any details of what goes on in our ceremonies!

"Our Creator knows who we are. We don't have to prove anything to anyone."
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Old 03-29-2006, 02:57 PM   #8
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Ok, sorry. I'll keep quiet about that. Do know that I meant well in my defense of the issue. Sacred things being desecrated is my biggest pet peeve.
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Old 03-29-2006, 04:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLittleIrishGirl
Ok, sorry. I'll keep quiet about that. Do know that I meant well in my defense of the issue. Sacred things being desecrated is my biggest pet peeve.

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Old 03-29-2006, 05:45 PM   #10
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Well, I gotta say thanks to Whome and BB for their comments. Oh and thanks Irish girl for sticking up for our culture.

I also want to say how refreshing it is to have you come on here and be honest about your tribal affiliation!

I think I might be a wannabe Celt due to my interest in historical novels.
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Old 03-29-2006, 06:29 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singing Eagle
I also want to say how refreshing it is to have you come on here and be honest about your tribal affiliation!

SingingE,

I agree. That's refreshing!

I think I am gonna like lil' irish! Welcome!
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Old 03-29-2006, 08:37 PM   #12
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Thumbs up

SingingEagle - If you decide to do the celt thing now and then I recommend getting a kilt. Guys always look good in a kilt. - hint-hint- As far as the tribal affiliation, no problem. I don't believe in decieving people and being dishonest like that. I feel it disrespects the actual peope who are of the first nation. I have too much respect for you all to be like the rest of people you guys probably have to deal with on a regular basis who are like that. Besides, I don't think my lack of ability to get a tan would allow for much confusion, as it is I make white people look tan. I might be a cracker, but at least I am a tasty cracker. lol. I guess my policy is, if someone can not laugh at themself, who can they laugh at. It's been my understanding that with being honest and upfront, it leaves little else to be said.

Us Irish (those who support ireland's freedom) seem to be able to relate in some small way to your people's struggles. I mean this in no offense or to take away from your own struggle. What I mean exactly is that my ancestors have had to deal with oppression by the british in ireland when they tried to take the irish land. We are still fighting to get the remaining 6 counties back. The Irish in history were hanged for wearing the color green in support of ireland's freedom, musicians were hung that tried to raise the people's spirits, religion had to go underground as there were laws against it. They also tried to take the irish gaelic language away from the people. Those people who refused to give up their native language were pushed to the west of ireland where the poorest farm land was as the british government would make them suffer by having them on land that hardly anything would grow on. The British government played a part in the potato famine happening in Ireland as the Irish people were starved to death.

So through this, I can reconize some simuliarity. Oppression is colorblind and unfortunately happens all over the world. Sometimes we become so focused on our own suffering that we forget to stop and look around that evil does not come in one singular form or area. The problem is with the human race as a whole as to how we could do such atrositities to each other. I like to better understand the human condition and I think despite all, we can best understand each other through our suffering and our convictions in what we feel is right. One needs not be from a certain nation to know the difference between right and wrong and know injustice when he sees it.

I'm very glad to be here and look forward to making friends with any openminded and wonderful people on here.

Thanks for your time in replying to my post.

Sincerely,

Staci

Last edited by CrazyLittleIrishGirl; 03-29-2006 at 08:43 PM..
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Old 03-29-2006, 08:40 PM   #13
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Thanks WhoMe. I think I am going to like you as well = )
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Old 03-29-2006, 09:31 PM   #14
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tHIS IS A BIT..

This is abit enteresting, Im not familiar with some of what the gal is talkin about , but when im around new agers i dont really like the vibe i get from them ,they are nice and all but I dont want to bring sickness to my family or myself so we go on our merry way respectfully of course..
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Old 03-29-2006, 09:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Plumes
This is abit enteresting, Im not familiar with some of what the gal is talkin about , but when im around new agers i dont really like the vibe i get from them ,they are nice and all but I dont want to bring sickness to my family or myself so we go on our merry way respectfully of course..
I'm a live and let type of person. So I understand what you mean. I am not a new ager, myself. Granted I am into healing and helping people but that is as far as it goes.

Thanks for replying to my post, Eagle Plume. = )
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Old 03-29-2006, 10:33 PM   #16
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wow five minute vision quest?

And to think I have been sweating over trying to get in contact with someone on the rez, getting ready to fast for four days and nights, making sure i got time off from work enough to travel to and from the rez, and learning all I need to know to get ready to do this when...

All I really have to do is some meditative exercises on the sofa while watching Mythbusters and zoning in on my personal Chi. What is this guys phone number?

Ah, not.

I will stick with traditions, yeah, its the long way around, but sometimes you just cant take shortcuts, lol.

Derek
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Old 03-30-2006, 12:47 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLittleIrishGirl
SingingEagle - If you decide to do the celt thing now and then I recommend getting a kilt. Guys always look good in a kilt. - hint-hint- As far as the tribal affiliation, no problem. I don't believe in decieving people and being dishonest like that. I feel it disrespects the actual peope who are of the first nation. I have too much respect for you all to be like the rest of people you guys probably have to deal with on a regular basis who are like that. Besides, I don't think my lack of ability to get a tan would allow for much confusion, as it is I make white people look tan. I might be a cracker, but at least I am a tasty cracker. lol. I guess my policy is, if someone can not laugh at themself, who can they laugh at. It's been my understanding that with being honest and upfront, it leaves little else to be said.

Us Irish (those who support ireland's freedom) seem to be able to relate in some small way to your people's struggles. I mean this in no offense or to take away from your own struggle. What I mean exactly is that my ancestors have had to deal with oppression by the british in ireland when they tried to take the irish land. We are still fighting to get the remaining 6 counties back. The Irish in history were hanged for wearing the color green in support of ireland's freedom, musicians were hung that tried to raise the people's spirits, religion had to go underground as there were laws against it. They also tried to take the irish gaelic language away from the people. Those people who refused to give up their native language were pushed to the west of ireland where the poorest farm land was as the british government would make them suffer by having them on land that hardly anything would grow on. The British government played a part in the potato famine happening in Ireland as the Irish people were starved to death.

So through this, I can reconize some simuliarity. Oppression is colorblind and unfortunately happens all over the world. Sometimes we become so focused on our own suffering that we forget to stop and look around that evil does not come in one singular form or area. The problem is with the human race as a whole as to how we could do such atrositities to each other. I like to better understand the human condition and I think despite all, we can best understand each other through our suffering and our convictions in what we feel is right. One needs not be from a certain nation to know the difference between right and wrong and know injustice when he sees it.

I'm very glad to be here and look forward to making friends with any openminded and wonderful people on here.

Thanks for your time in replying to my post.

Sincerely,

Staci

Staci

Yeah it was the whole brawny guy in a kilt thing that got me interested. BTW - I'm not a man!
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Old 03-30-2006, 06:55 AM   #18
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Many of my friends have been of irish descent! I love celtic music too! Especially the lady singers! But like my love of Japanese pop... I find it frustrating when they sing in the old tongue because I don't know the language and can't sing along LOL!
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