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Old 03-27-2013, 02:30 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by running_with_buffs View Post
there are indians who find redskins offensive
Not enough and they're being ridiculous in terms of focus.

Every dollar or hour spent on the national stage regarding this topic is one NOT spent on the actual issues that Native people need to address.

Feral cats on Rosebud are more important than Native-themed mascots...
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Old 03-27-2013, 02:44 PM   #42
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ok thats cool so give a real issue to talk about then.somthing thats important to you.or is feral cats in rosebud it? cause i do this for info and to pass the day and maybe even argue a lil bit ha.so put somthing out there that you wanna talk about.that be cool if ya did
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Old 03-27-2013, 03:00 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
When the point is unassailably sound, attack the grammar.

Look, it's a stylistic ad hominem!

You really want to die on the metaphorical cross that is Washington Redskins? Personally, I'd rather go to the mat for an issue that means something.

Why? Because, if we all get dressed up and march on The Mall and they pull the plug on the team name? Nothing significant changes.

That's its level of actual importance.

Again, that's not what causes our social ills.
1) I did not attack your grammar, I corrected your spelling. intellectual that you purport to be I'd have thought you'd at least have enough sense to learn to spell a historical figure's name before invoking it. besides I like to think of myself as more of a juranimoe.

2) You have to have a point for me to attack. "It's a DC issue" (which as far as I can tell translates into "It's not MY problem" doesn't qualify.)
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Old 03-27-2013, 03:07 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RestlessN8iv View Post
1) I did not attack your grammar, I corrected your spelling. intellectual that you purport to be I'd have thought you'd at least have enough sense to learn to spell a historical figure's name before invoking it. besides I like to think of myself as more of a juranimoe.

2) You have to have a point for me to attack. "It's a DC issue" (which as far as I can tell translates into "It's not MY problem" doesn't qualify.)
A little touchy, huh? I'm not offended.

As for my point, everyone else seemed to perceive it. Perhaps a re-read?
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Old 03-27-2013, 03:56 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by running_with_buffs View Post
thats neat and a great list but how many spartans consider spartans offensive? cause there are indians who find redskins offensive
What about the name Sioux? Or Huron? Or Cherokee? Aren't these names an issue? They are still being used in textbooks and all in schools.

Its all bad, and we all should stop and refer to everyone exactly as they should be referred to, and we all need to learn all that and let everyone else know too, if we manage to learn all that before we die.

Yeah, its no doubt offensive and if some kid came up to another in the playground, calling them that, they'd likely get socked. But if you don't like it, don't support it, and don't support anything connected with it. Not all southerners like to be called Rebels, the Irish cartoon mascots are pretty goofy and racist, like all Irish people are leprechauns, all Scottish people wear kilts all the time and play bagpipes, the whole savage viking thing, I mean, all these "symbolic" references to ethnicity are going to be messed up because they are trying to refer to an ethnicity in a single picture. A cowboy symbol would have boots, hats and ropes. Thats the way symbols work.

Some of these teams were Indian and called themselves "the Indians" or "the Braves", one Maori team calls themselves "the Maori". Maybe the Maori want to make sure that the teams they defeat KNOW they are defeated by the Maori.

Yeah, Redskins is bad by white standards, but in alot of languages people are referred to as white skin, red skin, black skin, etc. and these are accepted names for people in their culture. so why would something like redskins bother people? People have no problem calling people black or white. what's the difference? People don't get offended by that.

Its the white connotation of the term that is bad, because it is used in a derogatory way most of the time. Yeah, they should probably change it. But I think it gets ridiculous when a team called the Moccassins (after Water Moccassin, the snake) feels obligated to change their name not to offend. That's a pretty good team name.
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:10 PM   #46
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Am I not supposed to say "Cherokee" or "Sioux"? How am I supposed to find these things out?

Anywayz, as I've posted before, I think naming sports teams with native inspired names was great...cuz natives KICK @$$ in sports, warfare, all that...
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:11 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Not enough and they're being ridiculous in terms of focus.

Every dollar or hour spent on the national stage regarding this topic is one NOT spent on the actual issues that Native people need to address.

Feral cats on Rosebud are more important than Native-themed mascots...
Yes true.

From the first time that the team management was made aware of the racist potential of the name, which, in this day and age, they should've seen as a glaring problem in the first place, they made a decision obviously not to change it. They decided then that they did not care. I'm sure they aren't wasting the time and energy on it.

If they cared, they'd have changed it by now. So those are the kind of people you are supporting. Your decision to support them or not.
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:09 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo_rose View Post
Am I not supposed to say "Cherokee" or "Sioux"? How am I supposed to find these things out?
Everyone is supposed to read the 9 million page handbook that comes out just after they do and before the placenta, listing everyone else in the world and their genealogical lineage and proper names in their indigenous languages pronounced perfectly.

On those three:
Huron is derived from the French word for "ruffians", Cherokee "speakers of another language", Sioux:

Quote:
The name "Sioux" is an abbreviated form of Nadouessioux borrowed into Canadian French from Nadoüessioüak from the early Odawa exonym: naadowesiwag "Sioux".[4] Jean Nicolet recorded the use in 1640.[5] The Proto-Algonquian form *na·towe·wa, meaning "Northern Iroquoian", has reflexes in several daughter languages that refer to a small rattlesnake (massasauga, Sistrurus).[6] This information was interpreted by some that the Odawa borrowing was an insult. However, this Proto-Algonquian term most likely was ultimately derived from a form *-a·towe·, meaning simply "to speak a foreign language",[4] which would make it similar to the etymology of the Greek "Barbarian". Later this was extended in meaning in some Algonquian languages to refer to the massasauga. Thus, contrary to many accounts, the old Odawa word naadowesiwag did not equate the Sioux with snakes. This is not confirmed though, since usage over the previous decades has led to this term having negative connotations to those tribes to which it refers. This would explain why many tribes have rejected this term as an exonym. One source states that the name "Sioux" derives from a Chippewa word meaning "little snake";[7] Chippewa, or Ojibwa, is a dialectic variant of Odawa.
Sioux - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These names are in common use and accepted by some people, not by others. I'm just sayin', the origins of these names can be considered offensive, too. We all live with some degree of tolerance for the sake of communication. And everyone has their preferences, too.

The term "lady" can be considered offensive, even though royalty use the term:

Quote:
lady (n.)
c.1200, lafdi, lavede, from Old English hlæfdige "mistress of a household, wife of a lord," literally "one who kneads bread," from hlaf "bread" (see loaf) + -dige "maid," related to dæge "maker of dough" (see dey (1); also compare lord). The medial -f- disappeared 14c. Not found outside English except where borrowed from it.
Online Etymology Dictionary

A "lafdi" was a woman, who would go from door to door, offering to "knead your bread". It was a real job I guess, but also the women were considered of low repute, the whole bread thing being a metaphor. Later, it came to mean "the object of chivalrous love", which doesn't go completely against the original meaning.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:25 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo_rose View Post
Am I not supposed to say "Cherokee" or "Sioux"? How am I supposed to find these things out?

Anywayz, as I've posted before, I think naming sports teams with native inspired names was great...cuz natives KICK @$$ in sports, warfare, all that...
Yea? Name one NDN team worth one fourth of a rat's a$$!
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:30 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RestlessN8iv View Post
Yea? Name one NDN team worth one fourth of a rat's a$$!
Sequoyah Indians, Tahlequah Oklahoma
It is a High School

We like to think they are worth at least one Rat's Arse

Its an all Indian School...
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Old 03-28-2013, 03:28 PM   #51
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I was thinking Mrs pro circuit

KC Chiefs ... suck
Redskins... Suck
Indians / Atlanta braves... I don't watch baseball so you might have me there.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:13 PM   #52
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Spartan was never a racial epithet used against the people of Sparta.
The US does not have 500 year history of committing genocide against the Vikings or Irish, or Patriots.
...so that's a little different.

and it's not just the word "Redskins" it's what comes with it.. namely this behavior:


and while I agree mascot racism is not the greatest threat facing Indigenous people, it IS offensive because it is part of a larger problem between Native Americans and the dominant Eurocentric culture.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:18 PM   #53
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good points
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:26 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outershell View Post
Spartan was never a racial epithet used against the people of Sparta.
Just people from rural Michigan?


Quote:
Originally Posted by outershell View Post
The US does not have 500 year history of committing genocide against the Vikings or Irish, or Patriots.
...so that's a little different.
Well, they weren't here. And, when the Irish got here, they were treated like crap. (Sum? Comparing marginalization doesn't strike me as solid argumentative ground.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by outershell View Post
and it's not just the word "Redskins" it's what comes with it.. namely this behavior:
Who, precisely, is the fool in this picture? (It's not any Indian.) Seriously, you're offended by this? It's buffoonery and the highest form of non-threatening...

Quote:
Originally Posted by outershell View Post
and while I agree mascot racism is not the greatest threat facing Indigenous people, it IS offensive because it is part of a larger problem between Native Americans and the dominant Eurocentric culture.
You realize that we foster a significant portion of this "problem" by being militant about things like this?

There's not a centralized "dominant Eurocentric culture" in Europe anymore, let alone here and some folks (like the above) are just idiots. There is no cognizant and ongoing effort by any "dominant culture" to subvert our social status by virtue of eleven men paying homage to a spheroidal pigskin wearing a caricature.
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:34 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outershell View Post
Spartan was never a racial epithet used against the people of Sparta.
The US does not have 500 year history of committing genocide against the Vikings or Irish, or Patriots.
...so that's a little different.

and it's not just the word "Redskins" it's what comes with it.. namely this behavior:


and while I agree mascot racism is not the greatest threat facing Indigenous people, it IS offensive because it is part of a larger problem between Native Americans and the dominant Eurocentric culture.
I can't wait to hear all bout his Cherokee Princess grandmother.
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:53 AM   #56
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Somebody is paying attention if its making its way into the National Media
Native American mascots: Pride or prejudice? ? In America - CNN.com Blogs
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:52 AM   #57
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Somebody is paying attention if its making its way into the National Media
Native American mascots: Pride or prejudice? ? In America - CNN.com Blogs
And 90% of the comments tell us precisely where we are on this issue which recycles every ten years: tilting at windmills.

Just two examples?

"alf564

And it goes on and on and on, never ending complaining. If they really want to help "their people" work on getting them jobs and some industry onto the reservation instead of crying about a sports name...GOOD GRIEF !!!!"


"McBob79

The political correct loons on the warpath again. It's just a silly waste of time... there are so many more important issues facing America, like no jobs for Native Americans, African Americans and other minority groups. Mascot names for sports teams is not a top 10 problem facing America!"

This story is out there as fodder, not to create traction. There IS NO traction for movement on this issue.
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:03 PM   #58
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I live near the DC area (about 45 mins away in good traffic), and there's just so many things that are more important than a dinky football team.

If people want to run around like nitwits looking like they were tared and feathered by a village of bleeding turkeys in honor of their almighty oval-shaped pigskin god, fine. Whatever. Nothing they do (no matter how hard they're trying) is actually representative of my culture or who I am today.

Sure, "redskin" was originally a derogatory term used to collectively describe the many great nations based on color. But if you REALLY feel so strongly about it, learn to take something that was once negative and either let it bounce off you, or turn it into something positive.

Look at the African American culture. They took so many names that once labeled them and served to hold them back, and turned them into something they can be proud of. So many are proud to be "black", "negro", and all the other terms used to describe them. Even the younger generations. Those words can't hurt them as a people anymore. And even when called certain names out of hatred, they know who they are and what they're about as people. So a little slight from a local village idiot means a whole lot less than it once did.

As for me, I'd be prouder to be a redskin if the team didn't suck so bad. And half the time no one gives a rat's *** what ethnicity I am anyway, unless I go out of my way to bring attention to it. Racist buggers give me the stink eye, so what? I've been called names for far more than just my race. Whether used decoratively or used under the excuse of trying to "honor" us, it's all in how we chose to be effected by it.

Until someone comes at me, my niece, nephews or family with pitchforks, torches and bricks, I got bigger fish to fry than a name used for some entertainment team.
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:59 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
And 90% of the comments tell us precisely where we are on this issue which recycles every ten years: tilting at windmills.

Just two examples?

"alf564

And it goes on and on and on, never ending complaining. If they really want to help "their people" work on getting them jobs and some industry onto the reservation instead of crying about a sports name...GOOD GRIEF !!!!"


"McBob79

The political correct loons on the warpath again. It's just a silly waste of time... there are so many more important issues facing America, like no jobs for Native Americans, African Americans and other minority groups. Mascot names for sports teams is not a top 10 problem facing America!"

This story is out there as fodder, not to create traction. There IS NO traction for movement on this issue.
Yeah well
If enough pressure is placed anything will change
I posted the article
We shall see
no matter what we say
Public Opinion is fickle
And just because the Loud mouths can type does not mean that the majority that did not type anything dont find it offensive...
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:17 PM   #60
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If enough pressure is placed anything will change.
Sure.

But we're never going to be able to apply that much pressure, at least not without tackling the meaningful problems, first.
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