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Old 06-28-2012, 01:39 PM   #1
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Supreme Court Upholds ObamaCare - Agree or Disagree?

Do you agree or disagree with today's ruling?

How will it affect you, your family, your tribe/reservation?
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:53 PM   #2
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DISAGREE

My health benefits will continue to raise in price more and more every years as it has since he signed the bill, something it didn't do during Bush's admin, and now it will continue to get higher with more coming out of my pocket and less the insurance will pay for.

This will cause more spending from the public's pocket causing 1 of 2 things to happen
1. go without medical because you can't afford it, (Hmmm!)
2. cause insurance companies to close their doors cause they are not making $, as any OTHER BUSINESS is allowed to do, allowing the government to seize control of the medical industry.

If you've ever been on state assistance medical insurance, you are not in for much of a surprise, if you haven't, HA, you got a WHOLE new out look coming.
But it will all work out in the end, for Obama anyway, at some point everyone will be so broke they can't afford healthcare, so they can then apply for Obamacare.

Socialism, here we come right back where we started from.
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:30 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rezrazed View Post
DISAGREE


Socialism, here we come right back where we started from.
While im not particularly fond of Pres. Obama I still dont understand people's socialism claims. Can someone break it down for me?
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:35 PM   #4
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While im not particularly fond of Pres. Obama I still dont understand people's socialism claims. Can someone break it down for me?
most people don't understand the term or concept of socialism; just saying.

I don't know if I agree with all of the bill since you had commerce, real estate and everything else riding on the skirt tails of this bill but I do feel that women should not have to pay more insurance b/c we're women and this bill keeps insurance companies from charging us more because we don't have a "male" part. Also, this bill prevents insurance companies from rejecting you for pre-existing conditions. So those are two major areas I think are important and relevant.

just my nickle.....used more than two cents. :P
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:37 PM   #5
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I disagree with the individual mandate and being "taxed" or otherwise penalized for not having it - at least with a large portion of uninsured just barley scraping by as it is. If the economy was better then I wouldn't be so much against it, though not fully for it.

@rezrazed, the reason why your insurance keeps going up is because the cost of healthcare is going up. Thats in part because lax regulation in the industry has allowed doctors and hospitals to charge whatever they want and the insurance companies pay it because they can raise your prices, this will continue to happen, but the slope should even out a bit more.. Why? Well because the law forces doctors and hospitals to be more transparent about costs.

During the Bush years I was on my dad's insurance because I was in college. During that time he said that the premiums kept going up every 2 years or so, and it wasn't just his company being cheaper.

One of the goals of the bill was to make lessen the burden on the tax payers and lower our deficit. Sounds funny right? Currently the government already pays out for people who are not insured because every time they go to the hospital and can't afford to pay the government picks up the tab. Just one of many ways the feds already pay for it. If the charts are correct then the fed will save many billions a year on paying out of tax funds for health. This is because the new program is entirely self funded after it gets going.

The other point is that this is not "socialized medicine". The bill allows for the public t buy into a government created insurance agency and pay their premiums to to fed or buy from a private insurer. Supposedly the they say that the government can leverage more power into the negotiation process with doctors and hospitals.

In sum of my opinion, I believe that health care should be a right and not a privilege, after all how can we be the greatest first world country on earth and watch as the poor or those with preexisting conditions can't get treatment?
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:39 PM   #6
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Also point of fact that I stated in a different thread:

Interestingly enough, and related to this site, if one is an enrolled member of a federally recognized tribe then that person is exempt from the penalties for not having health insurance as provided by the law... Most likely because the IHS exists."
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:43 PM   #7
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by CandaePrincess View Post
most people don't understand the term or concept of socialism; just saying.

I don't know if I agree with all of the bill since you had commerce, real estate and everything else riding on the skirt tails of this bill but I do feel that women should not have to pay more insurance b/c we're women and this bill keeps insurance companies from charging us more because we don't have a "male" part. Also, this bill prevents insurance companies from rejecting you for pre-existing conditions. So those are two major areas I think are important and relevant.
Agreed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
One of the goals of the bill was to make lessen the burden on the tax payers and lower our deficit. Sounds funny right? Currently the government already pays out for people who are not insured because every time they go to the hospital and can't afford to pay the government picks up the tab. Just one of many ways the feds already pay for it. If the charts are correct then the fed will save many billions a year on paying out of tax funds for health. This is because the new program is entirely self funded after it gets going.

The other point is that this is not "socialized medicine". The bill allows for the public t buy into a government created insurance agency and pay their premiums to to fed or buy from a private insurer. Supposedly the they say that the government can leverage more power into the negotiation process with doctors and hospitals.

In sum of my opinion, I believe that health care should be a right and not a privilege, after all how can we be the greatest first world country on earth and watch as the poor or those with preexisting conditions can't get treatment?
Yes, I agree.

Thanks!
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:51 PM   #8
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most people don't understand the term or concept of socialism; just saying.
Understatement of the day!
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:53 PM   #9
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Understatement of the day!
Or communism for that matter since they are often used interchangeably.
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:54 PM   #10
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Understatement of the day!
Ditto!
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Old 06-28-2012, 04:56 PM   #11
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More than understandable @Toolbox, but fact is that during the Bush years, no change in healthcare, cost, expenses, how my HSA worked what and or how I could use it, and my deductible and my out of pocket expenses remand the same, once the Healthcare bill was signed, all that changed. You know you can use you HSA account to purchase over the counter meds like Tylenol or advil, as long as your doctor gives you a script, under Obama's Healthcare bill, OTC meds, that just seems idiotic to me.

Regarding socialism, most people also don't realize the levels and stages of socialism, it's connection to communism it's differences to communism nor do most people realize that socialism is a slide straight into communism, depending on the wants and ideologies of the masses and/or the political parties in charge. Add in the whinning of the 99% about the 1% and how they should give it up so everyone has the same and it's all fair, and what do you have? that would be called _________, starts with an S and ends in ism, has ocial in the middle of it.

Minored in political science. Just saying
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Old 06-28-2012, 05:41 PM   #12
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Old 06-28-2012, 05:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
One of the goals of the bill was to make lessen the burden on the tax payers and lower our deficit. Sounds funny right? Currently the government already pays out for people who are not insured because every time they go to the hospital and can't afford to pay the government picks up the tab. Just one of many ways the feds already pay for it. If the charts are correct then the fed will save many billions a year on paying out of tax funds for health. This is because the new program is entirely self funded after it gets going.

Sorry Tools Government does NOT pick up the tab, I know CNN would have us believe that, but it is you and I who pick up the tab, next time anyone goes to the hospital, and they give you a 800 milligram Ibuprofen, check to see what they charged you for it, guaranteed it will be no less than $10. So if they give you two, that$20. So that is how they get you, the redistribute it to the ones who can pay, or ones who have insurance, and if someone is on state finded insurance, that little thing on your paycheck that you know is supposed to be illegal, but was ratified in '48, that thing called taxes, pay for "state funded insurance" again its a matter of redistribution of monies, but what it boils down to is if you have a job you are ALREADY bearing the infirmities of the weak. The Government has just found a way to get it from you, redistribute it to a general fund, invest it, get rich off of it and then trickle it back into the system in which it was designed to initially go to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
The other point is that this is not "socialized medicine". The bill allows for the public t buy into a government created insurance agency and pay their premiums to to fed or buy from a private insurer. Supposedly the they say that the government can leverage more power into the negotiation process with doctors and hospitals.
Not yet, but it soon will be, by the way did you know that this Healthcare bill still DOES NOT ensure that every man woman and child receives insurance, millions will still be left out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
In sum of my opinion, I believe that health care should be a right and not a privilege, after all how can we be the greatest first world country on earth and watch as the poor or those with preexisting conditions can't get treatment?
What about certain individuals and religions who do not belive in modern medicines, I mean there are still many traditional elders out there who refuse to do anything but the old ways. Should there government MAKE them get healthcare? If the answer is yes, then you've removed the very essence of FREEDOM. If you so no, then does it still come down to privilege v right?
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:17 PM   #14
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i totally disagree with this plan. theres so many ppl on unemployment or worse homeless. how the heck are they to afford this or even the penalty fee when they cant find a job? who the heck do we got in office there? no one vote for obama in upcoming election plz. we need to get him outta office and redoo u.s. govt. our govt is i think cross between socialism and almost communism. communism in part that the govt is making us not giving us a choice making us get this health care. this country is spiraling down to disaster. well i bet obama will win the election cuz he'll do what he did last time pay ppl for their vote.down with obama!
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:30 PM   #15
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Im thinkimg ppl are going to lose those fat refund checks
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Old 06-29-2012, 10:19 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by rezrazed View Post
Sorry Tools Government does NOT pick up the tab, I know CNN would have us believe that, but it is you and I who pick up the tab, next time anyone goes to the hospital, and they give you a 800 milligram Ibuprofen, check to see what they charged you for it, guaranteed it will be no less than $10. So if they give you two, that$20. So that is how they get you, the redistribute it to the ones who can pay, or ones who have insurance, and if someone is on state finded insurance, that little thing on your paycheck that you know is supposed to be illegal, but was ratified in '48, that thing called taxes, pay for "state funded insurance" again its a matter of redistribution of monies, but what it boils down to is if you have a job you are ALREADY bearing the infirmities of the weak. The Government has just found a way to get it from you, redistribute it to a general fund, invest it, get rich off of it and then trickle it back into the system in which it was designed to initially go to.
If the government pays the bills with money collected as taxes then my statement remains correct. Once the government collects taxes it becomes their money and when they use it to buy something or pay for something then they are spending it as the government.
[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Not yet, but it soon will be, by the way did you know that this Healthcare bill still DOES NOT ensure that every man woman and child receives insurance, millions will still be left out.
It may not be perfect and may not cover everyone but it still covers a lot and offers so many protections for people who otherwise were denied health insurance. A while ago my aunt and uncle (very conservative republicans) were complaining about the high cost of health insurance because my cousin has marfan's and the possibility that the insurance company could drop him because it's "preexisting", you have to be born with it. Under the healthcare bill he has insurance. They honestly liked a large portion of the bill but had their son not been afflicted with marfan's then they would have been strongly against it. See the problem with a lot of these people who hate this bill and others by Obama is because nothing the bill refers to is happening to them, but the moment it does they freak out and say "Someone should do something about this!".

Quote:
What about certain individuals and religions who do not belive in modern medicines, I mean there are still many traditional elders out there who refuse to do anything but the old ways. Should there government MAKE them get healthcare? If the answer is yes, then you've removed the very essence of FREEDOM. If you so no, then does it still come down to privilege v right?
[/QUOTE]

As the bill states enrolled members of a federally recognized tribe are exempt, the elders you speak of should have nothing to worry about in terms of this bill. It still comes down to a privilege vs a right. A privilege is a benefit that one earns or is born with because of certain conditions, not everyone is entitled or has them. Driving is a privilege, you have to earn it and work to maintain it. A right is something that everyone is entitled to no matter what. Freedom of speech is a right, we all the right to say what we want in the public domain with a few exceptions.

As I have said above I don't agree with the individual mandate, it puts a lot of burden on certain individuals. The bill isn't perfect but a step forward. By 2014 I'd imagine that they might change that mandate or a few flaws in the bill, Obama has stated that he will work on it.
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Old 06-29-2012, 10:33 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by delila77 View Post
i totally disagree with this plan. theres so many ppl on unemployment or worse homeless. how the heck are they to afford this or even the penalty fee when they cant find a job? who the heck do we got in office there? no one vote for obama in upcoming election plz. we need to get him outta office and redoo u.s. govt. our govt is i think cross between socialism and almost communism. communism in part that the govt is making us not giving us a choice making us get this health care. this country is spiraling down to disaster. well i bet obama will win the election cuz he'll do what he did last time pay ppl for their vote.down with obama!
?????

Obama, nor McCain, could not have possibly had the funding to pay enough people to win the election. Obama's campaign mobilized the youth, a demographic that typically does not participate in politics. The grassroots efforts by them and many others is what helped land Obama into office.

You want to see a disaster wait till the guy who bought companies laid off their workforces and pumped the company full of debt and then forced them into bankruptcy gets into office. "Leveraged Buyouts". Remember KB Toys? Bain Capital bought them, made a profit of $85M and then tossed the company into Chapter 11; poof went thousands of jobs.
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Old 06-29-2012, 11:00 AM   #18
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You guys .......The Supreme Court DID NOT uphold the individual mandate.....They said they would uphold it as a tax ! The people cannot be required to buy health insurance , they can only be taxed if they don't , at least that's the way I read it.
I worked as a union bricklayer all my life and had excellent insurance , the cost of which was in our benefit package. That said , every contract seemed to take some of our wage to add more to insurance costs. Somewhere around 12 bucks a hour goes to cover healthcare !Now I'm retired/disabled and I have to pay it , and although it's a reduced rate I still pay the majority of my pension to cover my insurance !And it's way cheaper than going out and buying insurance somewhere else. I have to keep it because it covers the meds I'm on that Medicare won't.Next May I'll qualify for medicare but I don't think I want it. Although it's way cheaper , it doesn't cover near what my insurance does. How will this new plan fill in the gaps ? And how do you think that a 1% tax on people not having insurance is going to solve anything? And if it's 1% of your gross income , or 1% of your adjusted gross income ? That make an enormous difference......Many questions , but all in all I'd say I'm against it !
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Old 06-29-2012, 12:24 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
If the government pays the bills with money collected as taxes then my statement remains correct. Once the government collects taxes it becomes their money and when they use it to buy something or pay for something then they are spending it as the government.
To the extreme literal sense yes, I should have given more credit Tools, most folks who make that statement blurt it out as if the Gov is forking out the cash out of their own pockets, then asking for a donation to help reimburse them, but we all know, they couldn't pay anything with out us first.

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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
It may not be perfect and may not cover everyone but it still covers a lot and offers so many protections for people who otherwise were denied health insurance. A while ago my aunt and uncle (very conservative republicans) were complaining about the high cost of health insurance because my cousin has marfan's and the possibility that the insurance company could drop him because it's "preexisting", you have to be born with it. Under the healthcare bill he has insurance. They honestly liked a large portion of the bill but had their son not been afflicted with marfan's then they would have been strongly against it. See the problem with a lot of these people who hate this bill and others by Obama is because nothing the bill refers to is happening to them, but the moment it does they freak out and say "Someone should do something about this!".
I've been all for abolishing pre-existing conditions, have been since Clinton tried to do it, I just don't think we need to lump a truck load of manure on one flower seed.




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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
As the bill states enrolled members of a federally recognized tribe are exempt, the elders you speak of should have nothing to worry about in terms of this bill. It still comes down to a privilege vs a right. A privilege is a benefit that one earns or is born with because of certain conditions, not everyone is entitled or has them. Driving is a privilege, you have to earn it and work to maintain it. A right is something that everyone is entitled to no matter what. Freedom of speech is a right, we all the right to say what we want in the public domain with a few exceptions.
The elder was just an example, and maybe a bad one at that, there are other people say like certain sects of Mormonism, what about an alien who migrates here for school or work but doesn't necessarily believe in Western medical practice, to mandate that you HAVE to have insurance first and foremost is an infrigement on your rights, I don't care what the Courts say or said, this is America, I don't have to do anything I don't want to do, our Constitution says so. Regarding tribal members, You can not make an exception for one group and then demand that the other do so or else, it illogical and impractical.


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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
As I have said above I don't agree with the individual mandate, it puts a lot of burden on certain individuals. The bill isn't perfect but a step forward. By 2014 I'd imagine that they might change that mandate or a few flaws in the bill, Obama has stated that he will work on it.
Just my opinion by I believe that by 2014, we're gonna be in a lot worse spot than we are now. Even if Obama doesn't get re-elected, although he has all the money now, maybe he could buy this vote off too.

That all being sais, I wonder what @Zeke's take is on this.


@wardancer excellent points as usual.

Last edited by rezrazed; 06-29-2012 at 12:31 PM..
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:20 PM   #20
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Thanks Rez , There are loads of questions ! LOL
@Toolbox , Tribal members being exempt doesn't help a lot of us who don't live on or near an IHS clinic or hospital ! The nearest one to us is probably Laurence/Haskell which is about 110 miles or maybe Miami, Ok which is about 90 miles......not much help in the real world !
I do however , agree that pre-existing conditions should be covered and I don't like the gender difference in coverage , but then again we live in a free enterprise country and rates are based on statistics. This socialist idea of taking from the "haves" and giving to the "have-nots" just won't fly in this free enterprise society.....just sayin'
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