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Old 06-29-2012, 01:38 PM   #21
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@wardancer My statement regarding exemption was just restating the facts from the bill that certain qualifying individuals, based on tribal status, don't have to buy insurance or pay the "tax" penalty. I stated it because it's relevant to this site. The nearest IHS clinic to me is like 300+ miles away.

I'm all for free enterprise as long as the people behind it are responsible. So far a lot haven't been. Look at the mess on Wall St. These harsh bills and regulations handed down on companies are the result of their misbehavior, and they deserve it. Charging different amounts for men and women or those with preexisting conditions is just plain discrimination, it's not their fault they were born male or female or with a genetic condition. This is one of the most technologically evolved first world countries on earth and yet we can't take care of our sick or we charge more for things that aren't peoples fault. This country has a disease of greed and it's going to lead to our demise.
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:40 PM   #22
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All in all fantastic discussion everyone. Great points by all. The best part so far is that this has been a friendly debate, and not one mean thing said to any other members here - unlike other threads of varying topics.
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:20 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
All in all fantastic discussion everyone. Great points by all. The best part so far is that this has been a friendly debate, and not one mean thing said to any other members here - unlike other threads of varying topics.
DANG!, have I been too subtle again?
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Old 06-29-2012, 04:56 PM   #24
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I usually stay out of "political" threads.

Personally, I don't like the law as it is now. That being said, I'm glad it was (mostly) upheld by the Supreme Court. Otherwise it would be another generation or two before another healthcare solution would be tried. That it remains on the books allows Congress to amend it, hopefully for the better.

Thank you Toolbox for clarifying how it applies to the IHS. I was going to ask how it affected NDNs eligible for IHS care.

No offense to anyone, but...I've lived in both socialist and communist countries. Any comparison between what we have in the USA and socialism/communism is, imho, laughable.

Other people leave their "2 cents" or "2 elk teeth." So I guess the above is my "2 shekels" worth!

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Old 06-29-2012, 10:24 PM   #25
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@wardancer

I'm all for free enterprise as long as the people behind it are responsible. So far a lot haven't been. Look at the mess on Wall St. These harsh bills and regulations handed down on companies are the result of their misbehavior, and they deserve it. Charging different amounts for men and women or those with preexisting conditions is just plain discrimination, it's not their fault they were born male or female or with a genetic condition. This is one of the most technologically evolved first world countries on earth and yet we can't take care of our sick or we charge more for things that aren't peoples fault. This country has a disease of greed and it's going to lead to our demise.
Not trying to be mean @Toolbox , but I think you are swinging a double edged sword....
It's O.K. for congress to tell us how we HAVE to HAVE medical coverage and basically blackmail us by saying if we don't get it they will tax us , but it's NOT alright to tell you what you may or may not see on the internet.( yes , I actually do still read thru the threads! )
We are in a somewhat free society , that's how it is and now just like with those internet bills , Congress has once again decided what is best for it's citizens......whether they agree or not.
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Old 06-29-2012, 10:31 PM   #26
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I know we have some Canadians on here and they have some sort of universal health care.....I'd like to know how theirs is set up and how their Dr.s are paid. It seems that most of our Dr.s specialize so they can charge premium prices. And malpractice is a big issue and probably one of the biggest reasons our healthcare is so expensive !
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





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Old 06-30-2012, 11:28 AM   #27
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Also point of fact that I stated in a different thread:

Interestingly enough, and related to this site, if one is an enrolled member of a federally recognized tribe then that person is exempt from the penalties for not having health insurance as provided by the law... Most likely because the IHS exists."
Exempt here, nearest IHS is 40 miles.
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Old 07-01-2012, 06:15 AM   #28
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It's still good, the health care system we have in Germany. Everyone has to sign up for insurance. Only those that work get like 16% of brut salary automatically deducted by the employer and sent to health care gov. It's equally for all except for those that wish to get expensive privat insurance. But the health care service for all that are insured is very good. If you are poor everything gets paid for you. Ofcourse you need papers to proof social securtiy status. And those you get if you are a registered citizen and you have to be registered. All family members are insure with the one that pays those 16% if they for whatever reason fall out of the system or if you marry a person from another country, this person will be insured too. If you get a very small pension you still have to pay those 16% a month that always is. Say you have a pension of 600 a month, they also deduct 16% of it. If you fall below the poverty level witch is about 850 if I am not mistaken you're insured by social security. Everything is being paid for, clinics, hospital time, any doctors of your choice. All needed medications are for free, no matter how much you'd need. If you have wages from work above poverty level income, you may pay small fees for prescriptions and medications. Some time ago they began to require a quarterly fee of 10 for visiting a practicioner. He will give you a paper for every other doc you may need and you won't have to pay that fee again. If you have paid those 40 a year in advance, you can go to every doctor without needing any further papers from the practicioner. All that is for poor people. And for the drop outs of society that refuse to be part of the system, they still can see volunteer medical helpers for free. That's for those that live in the streets. A mobile clinic van driving around those places for first aid. If they need to be hospitalized, they well get that too for free of charge.

I don't know if it's appropiate to post that here, but I thought you may would like to know how health care works elsewhere. And if you leave the country, you still will be health insured as long as you pay those 16%. I think within the EU countries you can go to any health care place if you live in one of those countries. If you live in the EU and got to live in the US, you are not insured. All depending on contracts. But whilst travelling either you have a travel insurance of less than 20 for the holliday time, that will pay. When going back to home country and need further medical assistence again it's covered. Again, sorry if this post is inapropiate to post. I am way too much all over the place here.
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Old 07-01-2012, 10:13 AM   #29
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I know we have some Canadians on here and they have some sort of universal health care.....I'd like to know how theirs is set up and how their Dr.s are paid. It seems that most of our Dr.s specialize so they can charge premium prices. And malpractice is a big issue and probably one of the biggest reasons our healthcare is so expensive !
It's kind of complicated to explain how it all works but the short version is:

In our Constitution, there is a division of powers granted to the Feds and provincial governments in sections 91 and 92. The provinces were dealt the responsibility to provide among other necessities, health care administration and delivery. That meant in 1867 that the provinces were to provide hospitals, allow for regulatory bodies to oversee doctors and nurses as well as dentists. Drug approval, food security and Indian health were amongst the fed's responsibility.

When Tommy Douglas back in the 50s introduced the concept of universal health care, it was met with resistance as well.

So how it works here now. Each province is responsible for setting up and maintaining hospitals, payments are rec'd by the provinces in the transfer payments from the feds for health care based on population and overall wealth of the province.

When health care started back in the 60s, each family head had to pay a premium each month that was matched by their employer. If you were below a certain income level or not working your premiums were paid for by the socials services you were under.

Around the end of the 80s most provinces moved the onus of health care premiums to just the employer. Individuals stopped having to pay premiums. Now in my opinion, that's when things went to hell in a hand basket with cut backs in services - not enough income coming in to pay for everything.

Doctors under the provincial plan can still accept patients that use other means to pay for their care, private plans or cash. Most provinces have a cap on the amount that each doctor gets paid by the province - it caused a huge uproar with docs in Ontario back in the early 90s. To counter that, docs reduced the number of patients they took on. You hear of doctor shortages but the reality is that the doctors simply stop taking on new patients when they reach the capped rate of payment. There are plenty of doctors, they just don't want to work for free if they go over the capped amount.

Unlike the US that has the doctor do the billing for all services, up here each service is billed to the health care individually. For example a day surgery would be billed under the codes for each item, the surgeon bills for and gets paid for the specific surgery, the nurses get paid by the hospital, the drugs are paid for through the pharmacy, ...in the states the surgeon bills for it all and pays the individual accounts themselves.

When you move from one province to another, your coverage is good for 3 mnths and then it switches over to the new province. There is no such thing as refusing to cover pre-existing conditions. A heart patient will be treated in Nova Scotia or BC no matter how long the condition as been around. (although the trend nowadays is for doctors to refuse to take a patient on if they have chronic conditions that may suck up too much of the capped amounts for one patient).

Most employers offer additional coverage for things that aren't covered my universal health care.. drug prescriptions, eye glasses, hearing aids, dentists, certain treatments like chiropractic care. Non working or self employed people can still buy additional coverage like Blue Cross (although these plans do exclude certain pre-existing conditions).

HTH
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Old 07-01-2012, 11:42 AM   #30
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Thank-you Forgottengermanwoman & yaahl , very informative posts !
I like that in the EU people actually have to sign up for it and be citizens !
I like that Canada leaves it to the provinces to manage it.
Perhaps if the Feds. would leave it to the individual states they could work something out.
However , with the US being a so called "free" society and full of corporate capitalists, intent on the almighty dollar instead of caring for the people, I just don't see an answer in this country.
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

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Old 07-01-2012, 09:35 PM   #31
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Here's the thing: folks can disagree with the strategy of law but they can't dispute the Constitutionality of the law or the process used to enact it.

From some of the wingnut and right-wing radical crazies that I know, the anger is that they never believed this would actually become law. Then, it was affirmed?

"Surprise!"
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Old 07-01-2012, 10:14 PM   #32
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Here's the thing: folks can disagree with the strategy of law but they can't dispute the Constitutionality of the law or the process used to enact it.
Not so fast Zeke , you know good and well that the Obama lied to the American People and Congress lied as well by saying it was not a tax....The Supreme Court just upheld it as long as they call it a TAX....Seems the first two groups ignored the Constitution and the court corrected them !

At least that's how I see it !
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 07-02-2012, 07:54 AM   #33
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im thinking iif it will be like car insurance 50 a month for basic then 80 a month if you wanted towning and 110 if you want to whole pachage for A GOOD DRIVER AND PASSED THE AGE OF DANGERIOUS , my point is. will i realy get get health care or is this somthing that really only covers emergencys room bill payments, will dental now be in reach or a dencent check up these are now what im thinking about now that its law
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Old 07-02-2012, 10:15 AM   #34
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Not trying to be mean @Toolbox , but I think you are swinging a double edged sword....
It's O.K. for congress to tell us how we HAVE to HAVE medical coverage and basically blackmail us by saying if we don't get it they will tax us , but it's NOT alright to tell you what you may or may not see on the internet.( yes , I actually do still read thru the threads! )
We are in a somewhat free society , that's how it is and now just like with those internet bills , Congress has once again decided what is best for it's citizens......whether they agree or not.
No offense or meanness seen. I take everyone's opinions with respect and then offer my own with hopes of receiving the same respect.

I think it is OK for the feds to mandate health care reform and regulations. I stated above that I do not like the idea of a penalty for not having it. They should have allowed individuals to opt out of the program entirely leaving them to cover themselves privately or not at all and receive no additional help from the feds.

I don't think Obama and congress really lied when they said it wasn't a tax. The SCOTUS determined that the way a fine could be levied is if they place it under the tax code.

Side note, some of the keys to fixing health care involve, tort reforms, caps on law suits, and regulation of the prices of goods... ever see how someone gets millions for a scar from a surgery, or the $20 band-aide? Then again it would put a lot of lawyers out of business and shut off 90% of the annoying ads on tv.

No double edge sword since the freedom internet is protected under free speech. As for the internet bills they are designed to protect corporations from pirates but most of the pirates are not in the US and their servers are located in foreign countries. It's already against the law to obtain copyrighted materials illegally, get caught and the fines are massive.
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Old 07-02-2012, 10:48 AM   #35
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@wardancer Look at the mess on Wall St. These harsh bills and regulations handed down on companies are the result of their misbehavior, and they deserve it.
Unfortunately the were rewarded by government bail out.

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No offense to anyone, but...I've lived in both socialist and communist countries. Any comparison between what we have in the USA and socialism/communism is, imho, laughable.
RDNKJ, that is really intereesting, and would love to hear more about your experiences in those country's. That being said, I'm curious, have you lived in those countries, while they were already socialistic and or communistic, or where you living there as they turned?

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And malpractice is a big issue and probably one of the biggest reasons our healthcare is so expensive !
HAMMER, NAIL, RIGHT ON THE OLE HEAD!
The largest factor that is ALWAYS displaced when the manipulation of statistics gets fumbled around for the public to go off half cocked over.
Thanks @wardancer


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Here's the thing: folks can disagree with the strategy of law but they can't dispute the Constitutionality of the law or the process used to enact it.

From some of the wingnut and right-wing radical crazies that I know, the anger is that they never believed this would actually become law. Then, it was affirmed?

"Surprise!"
For most of the wingnut and right wing crazies I know where mad because they knew this would happen all the while the mass shrugged their shoulders and barked maybe America should be a little more socialistic.

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Not so fast Zeke , you know good and well that the Obama lied to the American People and Congress lied as well by saying it was not a tax....The Supreme Court just upheld it as long as they call it a TAX....Seems the first two groups ignored the Constitution and the court corrected them !

At least that's how I see it !
Didn't Democrats blame Republicans for being the tax mongrols? lol


Much of this hullabaloo came because of my statement of, "Socialism here we come..." The fact is I said HERE WE COME, NOT HERE WE ARE!, the problem with the word socialism is a two way street, just as MANY republican are using it with no clue as to what they are saying, so many Democrats are refusing to hear what was said, and insert what they thought was said.

History, much like karma, is a beeyotch, a continuous cycle that spins round and round no matter WHO is in office. The saying that we are doomed to repeat history if we don't learn from it is VERY misleading, the fact is, we will always repeat it, look how many people are STILL in an uproar because a BLACK man is in office. How man hundreds of years old is that issue?

OK, I'll spare the history lesson, let's just assume everyone knows or at least will research how socialism comes about, if you don't know first and foremost it's the removal of freedom. Personal choice, and right, see a lot of people scream "RIGHT" not priveledge, but what they do not understand, it is still your "RIGHT" to decline health insurance, just as it is your "RIGHT" to obtain it. Now does that mean the big bad Democrats are removing our rights? The answer is YES, but so are Republicans. Patriot Act, although, I feel safer knowing that the government can tap into phone conversations to stop terrorist attacks, as they have since the institution of this bill, it's still, a complete and total invasion of our privacy and a violation of our constitutional right. So for those of you who scream about the Patriot act, why are you not screaming just as loud for a healthcare bill, that the "MAJORITY" didn't want,(and remember democracies are a body governed by majority rules, not pass the bill so we can see what is in it) that demands that you have insurance or get TAXED? Kinda hypocritical don't ya think? All I'm saying is, if you're gonna call a spade a spade, call ALL the spades a spade, not just just the republicans, or just the democrat ones.

I still think it's a BAD bill and it has no place in it, for 2 major reasons
1. State insurances are already in affect for people who do not have insurance, if we WOULD keep the politicians hands out of them we might see people being able to use them again, but thanks to Clinton Welfare reform, that has become like asking an elephant to jump through a cheerio.

2. And probably the most important factor of why I'm against it. How the H3LL can someone who earns 6 figures a year, that doesn't really have to be at work everyday to collect his salary or even participate in his/her job, (Yea, Nay or Abstain), has had a silver spoon upbringing, college paid for, with a law degree, and has NEVER gone a day in their lives without insurance, especially the ones who've made this a career and have the BEST medical insurance the American people can buy for them, know about not having insurance or the poor. Oh cause someone did research? Pfffffffffffffffffffffffft, come here and I'll show you were you can stick that research.

Anyway, rant over I guess.
Good discussion everyone

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Old 07-02-2012, 01:00 PM   #36
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No double edge sword since the freedom internet is protected under free speech. As for the internet bills they are designed to protect corporations from pirates but most of the pirates are not in the US and their servers are located in foreign countries. It's already against the law to obtain copyrighted materials illegally, get caught and the fines are massive.
Hey Toolbox, the first thing they go after is your freedom of speech.

It hasn't passed and probably wont but the legislation was there as is always:
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/...ti-cursing-law

Check to see what constitutes disorderly conduct in Penn:
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/...rrest-survives

I remember when I was growing up, (immature as it may have been and of course insensitive, but the two big buzz words of my day was Dude and Gay. Dude was the way you addressed someone, and gay was what we used to explain how stupid something was, neither the proper definition of the words. But then again, they don't don't mean the same thing today as they did then either. Anyway, back then someone said or did something that was just dumb and they were met with, "Dude! that's so gay!" Saying that today could get you brought up on charges of hate speech.
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Old 07-02-2012, 03:59 PM   #37
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instead of just repeating the same crap over and over.....start a new thread.
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:30 AM   #38
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All in all fantastic discussion everyone. Great points by all. The best part so far is that this has been a friendly debate, and not one mean thing said to any other members here - unlike other threads of varying topics.
Until now.
LOL
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:40 AM   #39
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Until now.
LOL
You talking about @CandaePrincess post above?

She didn't direct it at anyone so I'm assuming it was those of us who just kept going on and on... LOL
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:44 AM   #40
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You talking about @CandaePrincess post above?

She didn't direct it at anyone so I'm assuming it was those of us who just kept going on and on... LOL
Just being the smart___ as usual, that's all.
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