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Old 06-12-2013, 07:50 AM   #21
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But it would be said with fear of who is claimed.

Which is hypocrisy.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

When I buy a round of drinks at the bar -

People be claiming me!
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:14 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Ta'neeszahnii Techno View Post
This is similar to what @lbgood would say: Indian by Injection
Doesn't work -
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:28 AM   #23
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On the other side I could ask - what is a true German? - Not me -
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:42 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Spiritflight View Post
On the other side I could ask - what is a true German? - Not me -
Arrrgh!

Why can't people just be proud of who and what they are???

Sorry Spiritflight. I'm not angry, just frustrated.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:51 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Spiritflight View Post
On the other side I could ask - what is a true German? - Not me -
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:15 PM   #26
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On the other side I could ask - what is a true German? - Not me -
The bigger question is...Is there any one "type" that is the true (insert tribe/race/nationality/etc.)?

My answer to that would be no. Identity can't be reduced to any one thing or type, it is more existential than that. No offense, but I would argue that you are a true German. Your experience as a German woman is no more or less valid or authentic than the people in Bavaria in their lederhosen or the poshest circles in Berlin.

I'm only partially observant, but woe betide the person who tells me I'm not truly Jewish because I eat pork and shellfish. From the ultra-orthodox Hasid in Jerusalem to the most secular, athiest Jewish lawyer in L.A. - we're all "true Jews."

I think that is true, no matter what the identity.
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:50 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by neling4 View Post
Arrrgh!

Why can't people just be proud of who and what they are???

Sorry Spiritflight. I'm not angry, just frustrated.
Right - no nationality needed. It's the individual that counts and many individuals or better say people, that are alike (feeling - thinking - knowing etc. in the right way) belong to the same kind.
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:52 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ta'neeszahnii Techno View Post
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
So it is - nice.
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:36 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by RDNKJ View Post
The bigger question is...Is there any one "type" that is the true (insert tribe/race/nationality/etc.)?

My answer to that would be no. Identity can't be reduced to any one thing or type, it is more existential than that. No offense, but I would argue that you are a true German. Your experience as a German woman is no more or less valid or authentic than the people in Bavaria in their lederhosen or the poshest circles in Berlin.

I'm only partially observant, but woe betide the person who tells me I'm not truly Jewish because I eat pork and shellfish. From the ultra-orthodox Hasid in Jerusalem to the most secular, athiest Jewish lawyer in L.A. - we're all "true Jews."

I think that is true, no matter what the identity.
Please excuse me that I say - born german - papers say it - but if my ancestors would have stayed where they came from, I would have been russian born. The questions I asked - I just feel neutral about them questions. Either one feels alike or same with certain groups of people and more belonging to their ways - based to what one has experienced - or not. So if you're born to a nationality and do not connect with them since earliest childhood and it always stays that way, then (if you can afford to financially) may move on to find those people on this planet you think you can connect with better.

My mother was befriended with a jewish writer. I can connect with many people that are free spirits, that sounds strange... hmmm... I mean people that get on well with each other no matter where they come from or which culture or nationallity they have.

Ofc - maybe I could connect to germans as well - in a way the upbringing lays a path but it rarely happened - can't remember that I ever felt home within german community.

Being someone just on papers is not the real thing. You are who you are and feel home with. I don't feel offended easily by anyone - only when attacked physically. I am just me like a bird in the wind flying alone which is good. I love being ~alone~ but not 365 days a year. With alone I mean - even though being with many people around you - there can be no connection. And in real life the best connection I ever felt with any kind of people is this one I am having with my real life NDN friends. Not all ofc - people are like this and that. I better stop writing b4 I get lost in my own words.

The question was - what is a true indian - as in NDN - would those people who got adopted out into non NDN Families would still feel the connection to their true roots? I would say yes - they may learn life in a different way rather than having been raised within NDN community - but there is something within the people which is different. I know what it is and then I also found out - they - those I met - are like me and I am not NDN. I never had that feeling with any other people. Diggin' deep into the past... having a feature alike people are having. I do not think my biological roots come from any germanic tribes. A mix of ancient nomadic tribes maybe.

It's not important, only interesting.
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:50 PM   #30
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OKay, I'm gonna get in trouble. Here goes.

Spirit...

Has it ever occurred to you maybe it's your anglo pushiness and determination to be accepted into the Native world...that gets you pushed away?

Those anglos that are accepted, are welcomed because of their calm ways who only accept and not demand. Joe Liles comes to mind. Worked putting on a powwow at the School of Science and Math in North Carolina. Worked his butt off, and humbly accepted all the appreciation given to him. Never once did I hear him say he was NDN at heart and didn't belong to his own kind, yet he was accepted into the Native community with respectful arms. Heck, you could say Joe is a true NDN in a white man's body.

I'm sure many on here can repeat this story. We all know many Joe Liles.

I was once told by a preacher, "Black is not a color, but an attitude...and James, I have reason to believe you are black". Did it mean I was Black at heart? No. Did it mean I wanted to be accepted by the black community? No. It meant my way of thinking was like that of a 'Black man'. I always thought my way of thinking was because of my upbringing. Not what I perceived as to what I wanted.

True Indian? I'm not sure you can describe a 'true Indian'. First Nations say they are true Indians, Plains Indians say they are 'true indians, Tarahumra, Yaqui and Huichol say they are 'true Indian. The Aztecs, Mayans, the Ona, the Puelche, the Tuyuca and Totora Indians of Central and South America say they are true Indians.

Are we to argue with them as being True Indians. Never.

Will we dispute anglos who more 'feels comfortable' with the Indigenous People than they do with their 'own' kind? Always.

You see. Those same people have given themselves the acceptance to be something they are not.

We've seen that all our lives.
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

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Old 06-14-2013, 03:20 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
Will we dispute anglos who more 'feels comfortable' with the Indigenous People than they do with their 'own' kind? Always.

You see. Those same people have given themselves the acceptance to be something they are not.

We've seen that all our lives.
I don't buy that, here is why: LINK

Not even Native blood makes you "Indian" to those with poor definitions.

What we've seen all of our lives is an internally heightened defensiveness in holding onto ways of life that do not exist anymore -- except in isolated vacuums -- because we equate growth with passing judgment on our ancestors. In sum, we've FAILED to give ourselves acceptance to allow inclusion as a form of life because of fear that it makes us less Native.

I call b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t.

I believe it is 100% possible for an Anglo to be more "Indian" than me if you define us in a closeted, backward and romanticized manner. (Woundedbear wants to wear a breechcloth to Wal*Mart in Miami, OK. If that's your definition, he's more "Indian" than all of us!)

In my opinion, if you do things the way I was taught and do them, you are what I am. The key is that the only way you'll be able to accomplish that is by learning how I did. (You're not going to get that by feeling you are something, you have to BE something.) And if you are something, you don't really care how someone else defines it.

1. I'm not threatened by Anglos, they can't steal what is within me.
2. If an Indian is threatened by Anglos, they need to look inward.
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Old 06-14-2013, 07:49 AM   #32
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Oh dear, my head may have to explode. I find myself agreeing with Joe's Dad and Zeke, simultaneously.


In the process of conquest and colonization, the ability to fix the boundaries our own cultural and social norms were severely damaged. Our institutions were attacked and normal modes of transmission of culture disrupted or broken. External definitions -- heathen, barbarian, blood quanta, noble savage, primitive, etc -- of "Indianess" were imposed. As a natural consequence, we have become excruciatingly sensitive to assault on these borders and obsessed with the us vs. them dialectic.

The irony (should you choose to view it so favorably) of this is that, in addition to some communities normalizing some really hideously damaging and dysfunctional behaviors, we have internalized some of the dominant culture's essentialist views of Native cultures. In our desperate attempts to counter the overwhelming negatives in the imposed definitions, we have seized upon rare elements of the good in these alien views. And we have rightly and wrongly enshrined those elements of the old ways that have survived attack. After all this trauma, we are -- as Zeke points out -- queasy about the risks inherent in personal and community self-definition. And understandably chary about inclusiveness.

After decades of relentless negative dominant culture stereotyping of our cultures, we've recast the dynamic as Native good, non-Native bad. We have eagerly put on some of Rousseau's discarded clothes. Conveniently ignoring for the moment that this is another romantic borrowing from an alien worldview. Should we then be surprised that some of the disaffected within the dominant culture should seize upon this and long to become the virtuous us?

Now to those who proclaim a Native heart: Can't you see where claiming inclusion is an imposition of colonial privilege? We have always included and enculturated outsiders. But we have made that decision. When you are claiming that you are Indian at heart, you are attacking our power to define our communities, by making yourself the gatekeeper. Why should you have that right? I can't just define myself as a member of a particular Native community by virtue of a few bits of DNA. I have to earn that acceptance. Why shouldn't you?


JD, how's that for typing like a white woman? Or worse an aging academic, LOL.

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Old 06-14-2013, 08:27 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
I don't buy that, here is why: LINK

Not even Native blood makes you "Indian" to those with poor definitions.

What we've seen all of our lives is an internally heightened defensiveness in holding onto ways of life that do not exist anymore -- except in isolated vacuums -- because we equate growth with passing judgment on our ancestors. In sum, we've FAILED to give ourselves acceptance to allow inclusion as a form of life because of fear that it makes us less Native.

I call b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t.

I believe it is 100% possible for an Anglo to be more "Indian" than me if you define us in a closeted, backward and romanticized manner. (Woundedbear wants to wear a breechcloth to Wal*Mart in Miami, OK. If that's your definition, he's more "Indian" than all of us!)

In my opinion, if you do things the way I was taught and do them, you are what I am. The key is that the only way you'll be able to accomplish that is by learning how I did. (You're not going to get that by feeling you are something, you have to BE something.) And if you are something, you don't really care how someone else defines it.

1. I'm not threatened by Anglos, they can't steal what is within me.
2. If an Indian is threatened by Anglos, they need to look inward.
I'll accept your perspective.

So by your definition, because you drink some form of expensive liquor and smoke whatever kind of cigars, like blonde women and say 'to wit', you are a white man more than some white men?

Or, are you Indian playing white man?

I forgot to ask you, Zeke...

Am I calling b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t on your calling b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t? lol
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__________________


Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman

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Old 06-14-2013, 08:40 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Oh dear, my head may have to explode. I find myself agreeing with Joe's Dad and Zeke, simultaneously.


In the process of conquest and colonization, the ability to fix the boundaries our own cultural and social norms were severely damaged. Our institutions were attacked and normal modes of transmission of culture disrupted or broken. External definitions -- heathen, barbarian, blood quanta, noble savage, primitive, etc -- of "Indianess" were imposed. As a natural consequence, we have become excruciatingly sensitive to assault on these borders and obsessed with the us vs. them dialectic.

The irony (should you choose to view it so favorably) of this is that, in addition to some communities normalizing some really hideously damaging and dysfunctional behaviors, we have internalized some of the dominant culture's essentialist views of Native cultures. In our desperate attempts to counter the overwhelming negatives in the imposed definitions, we have seized upon rare elements of the good in these alien views. And we have rightly and wrongly enshrined those elements of the old ways that have survived attack. After all this trauma, we are -- as Zeke points out -- queasy about the risks inherent in personal and community self-definition. And understandably chary about inclusiveness.

After decades of relentless negative dominant culture stereotyping of our cultures, we've recast the dynamic as Native good, non-Native bad. We have eagerly put on some of Rousseau's discarded clothes. Conveniently ignoring for the moment that this is another romantic borrowing from an alien worldview. Should we then be surprised that some of the disaffected within the dominant culture should seize upon this and long to become the virtuous us?

Now to those who proclaim a Native heart: Can't you see where claiming inclusion is an imposition of colonial privilege? We have always included and enculturated outsiders. But we have made that decision. When you are claiming that you are Indian at heart, you are attacking our power to define our communities, by making yourself the gatekeeper. Why should you have that right? I can't just define myself as a member of a particular Native community by virtue of a few bits of DNA. I have to earn that acceptance. Why shouldn't you?


JD, how's that for typing like a white woman? Or worse an aging academic, LOL.
Funny thing is...I understood your writing! Does than make me a white man? LOL I always try to break your writings DOWN to my intellectual level.

As I was reading, I saw the tree during ceremony, I saw the faces of the ancient ones at the cathedral in Mexico city, the dancers in their Cavalry hats and gloves during Grand Entry in Montana.

These are the things who define us as WHO we are, not what we are.

So yeah, maybe there is a defensiveness about a 'chary to inclusivness'.

What the heck is a chary??? hahahaa
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman
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Old 06-14-2013, 10:30 AM   #35
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Once upon a time ago, I had to teach a law class on Aboriginal law... now the irony was that the Aboriginal law that I was teaching was in fact, British common-law with a little bit of the Napoleon Civil code thrown in as those are the laws that Canadians have accepted to follow.

In one of my lectures, I asked the class to define what they thought was a legitimate Aboriginal person (now keep in mind all those of you that are not living under the Charter of Rights and Constitution of Canada that an Aboriginal person is classed as either, Status, Metis or Inuit).

Definitions ranged from DNA samples to ability to speak and communicate within the languages of the group, Some were defined by the family connections (and in order to understand that you'd pretty much have to understand the Indian Act and how it set out to destroy the family connections but that's a whole other discussion), other were defined at how Aboriginal someone looked - which is totally ironic here in Canada because... Aboriginal Peoples were never recognized as a visibleminority but rather as a distinct cultural group. Seems our very long history of fur trading and a la facon du pays marriages created an entire group of folks that took on the ways of the Europeans to please the masters of the Northwest and Hudson Bay Companies. The point is, there is no one definition nor is there one way to define us. Simply feeling it in your heart does not give you the collective consciousness of thousands of years of a people. What I feel in my heart, I predict, is nothing close to what you feel in your German heart. When I say "my child" in my language - that phrase comes with a tribe, a clan, a house and most of all a family - my child is all of the above. What I suspect you have in your heart is a yearning to be something that you think will make you happy. My happiness comes not from to whom I am related to, but to what I choose to do to increase my happiness and nurture my Id.

I sat on my Nation's Self Government negotiations and our biggest achievement was taking back the right to govern ourselves AND define who our members are. We tossed those cards away that the government issued and now we define ourselves... our clans are intact, our houses are growing with each new baby born and our people are getting stronger every day. I doubt you will ever feel within your heart what I feel when I stand on the land that my ancestors also stood upon knowing that I have given my people three more generations forward to also stand on the land.

As with any. "I feel it in my heart Indian", please by all means come and join us, but be prepared to work hard for there is much to do - we need critical mass in education, law, medicine, politics, environment, resource management, wildlife preservation and control, fishing and hunting management, housing design, all trade skills, engineers, sea management, arctic sovereignty and management, policy developers, linguists, economic development and sustainability, arts and communication.

If you simply want to sleep in a tipi and pretend you are back on the days of Sitting Bull, may I suggest you book a holiday in Blackfoot Crossing or Elk Island National Park and have at 'er.

In the meantime, I suggest you go off and read the book by Sylvia Van Kirk, "Many Tender Ties" and when you are done that.. try reading these:

Buffalohead, P.K. (1983). Farmers Warriors Traders: A Fresh Look at Ojibway Women. (Document No. 28). In, Minnesota History; The Quarterly of the Minnesota Historical Society. 48 (6) Saint Paul: Minnesota Historical Society, 1983. Pp.236-244. (HRAF Public Information: New Haven, Conn.: HRAF 2000. computer file).

The National Archives Learning Curve, (n.d.). Plains Indians. Retrieved Mar. 31, 2006, from [Spartacus Educational ... ] .

Canada, Indian and Inuit Affairs Program, Research Branch. (1979). A Demographic Profile of Registered Indian Women. Ottawa: Research Branch, Indian and Inuit Affairs Program

Estes, C. P. (1995). Women Who Run With the Wolves; Myths and Stories of the Wild Woman Archetype. Ballantine Books: New York

Fisk, J. (1990). Native women in reserve politics: strategies and struggles. Journal of Legal Pluralism 30: pp121-37.

Fournier, S. & Crey, E. (2000). “We can heal”: aboriginal children today. In L.F. Klein & L. A. Ackerman (Eds.), Women and Power in Native North America (pp.303-330). University of Oklahoma Press, Norman.

Fox, T. & Long, D. (2000) Struggles within the circle: Violence, healing and health on a First Nations reserve. In D.Long and O. Dickason (Eds.), Visions of the Heart (pp.271-297) Harcourt Canada Ltd.

Hare, J. & Barman, J. (2000). Aboriginal education: is there a way ahead? In L.F. Klein & L. A. Ackerman (Eds.), Women and Power in Native North America (pp. 331-359). University of Oklahoma Press, Norman.

Kehoe, A.B. (1995). Blackfoot persons. In L. F. Klein & L. A. Ackerman (Eds.), Women And Power in Native North America (pp.113-125). University of Oklahoma Press, Norman.

LaRoque, E. (1994). Violence in Aboriginal Communities. National Clearinghouse on Family Violence: Ottawa, 1994.

Peters, E. (2000). Aboriginal People in Urban Areas. In L.F. Klein & L. A. Ackerman (Eds.), Women and Power in Native North America (pp.237-270). University of Okalahoma Press, Norman.

The Native American Women's Health Education Resource Center. (n.d). Lake Andes, SD. 57356-0572

Voyageur, C. J. (2000). Contemporary Aboriginal women in Canada. In D.Long &

O.P. Dickason (Ed.), Visions of the Heart; Canadian Aboriginal Issues (pp. 81-106). Nelson; Thompson Canada


Then when you are done those, try these:
Canadian Indian Policy

and when you think you might be able to hold up your end of the debate about what is a true Indian other than some ridiculous assumption that all you have to do is feel it in your heart.. then you might try these sources of information:

http://firstnationcitizenship.afn.ca...n_Identity.pdf

http://cinema2.arts.ubc.ca/units/can...dian(Lutz).pdf

http://www.oba.org/en/pdf/sec_news_sept11_c3_palm.pdf


So after reading these... still think you have any reason to ask those of us who know what and who we are.. to define ourselves even further so that you might find a way to enmesh yourself into our communities because you don't like being German...?


In addtion, please feel free to red the Land Claim Agreement that governs me... see yourself anywhere in it?

http://www.eco.gov.yk.ca/pdf/umbrellafinalagreement.pdf
or my Haida roots... http://www.haidanation.ca/Pages/Spla...of%20Claim.pdf
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:13 PM   #36
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I'll accept your perspective.

So by your definition, because you drink some form of expensive liquor and smoke whatever kind of cigars, like blonde women and say 'to wit', you are a white man more than some white men?
Yes.

If that's how you define a white man.

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Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
Funny thing is...I understood your [OLChemist] writing! Does than make me a white man?
Yes, at least in part.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:38 PM   #37
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As with any. "I feel it in my heart Indian", please by all means come and join us, but be prepared to work hard for there is much to do - we need critical mass in education, law, medicine, politics, environment, resource management, wildlife preservation and control, fishing and hunting management, housing design, all trade skills, engineers, sea management, arctic sovereignty and management, policy developers, linguists, economic development and sustainability, arts and communication.

If you simply want to sleep in a tipi and pretend you are back on the days of Sitting Bull, may I suggest you book a holiday in Blackfoot Crossing or Elk Island National Park and have at 'er.
Here's the secret: This applies to EVERYONE.

Far too many Natives want only the second paragraph or spend their lives being wannabe hunters and/or Federal table scrap hyenas because they fear the first one.

1. Those people knowingly harm us.
2. If you knowingly harm us, you're not part of us.
3. I don't care if you're a CDIB PURE blood going back to infinity.

But hey, I have unusual ideas about what is a "true Indian."
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:21 PM   #38
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