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Old 10-27-2014, 09:10 AM   #1
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Life without hospitals

Hi,

I suspect that native american lifestyle without technology was the correct one.

I just wonder how they did without hospitals.

I know that animals also live without hospitals nor technology totally in respect with nature and happily. So hospitals are probably not necessary.

How native americans before holocaust lived without hospitals?

Thanks,
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Old 10-27-2014, 10:00 AM   #2
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The notion that American Indians lived without technology is entirely false. They invented, engineered, and farmed like everyone else in the world did. The technology may be primitive in today's standards or maybe in contrast to the developments in Europe and Asia. Look at the bow and arrow, simple machine that is essentially a stick with a length of sinew tied to the ends. It actually isn't that simple. First of all people had to experiment with different woods to find the species with the right balance of rigidity, flexibility and shape memory (ability to return to the relaxed state after the arrow is fired). Secondly they had to invent a way to make sinew not biodegrade so it can be used to string a bow. Speaking about making sinew last a long time - people also managed to figure out how to tan hides using the animal's brain. Canoes also took some engineering as not every type of wood can be carved into a canoe. Look at what the Mayan tribes built for some of the best examples of American Indian technology - some of which rival and exceed what the Egyptians built.

Everything we have today is built on advances that have been developing for millennia. Computers are based on calculators that were based on adding machines that were based on the Abacus that was based on something else. Simple put technology is part of human evolution.

The idea that animals live without hospitals and so therefore hospitals are not necessary is just plain silly. Hospitals are just another example of technological evolution. Medical science is why we are living longer and surviving from stuff that would otherwise kill us slowly and painfully. Imagine you are walking around the desert and you see a cute little rattle snake and decide to pet it, chances are the snake won't like this and will bite you thus injecting venom into your hand. If you call 911 from your cell phone you can receive life saving medical treatment and be good as new again in a few weeks. Now same scenario except you took a time machine back to the days before the settlers and conquistadors landed. You pet the rattle snake and it bites you. This time you have no cell phone and no hospital, what do you do? You die, that's what you do and if you managed to survive the bite the necrosis and gangrene will eventually do you in. With hospitals that's not so much of a problem any more.

So how did ancient people's here live without hospitals? Well we can't fully say for sure but I'd be willing to bet if an injury happened either you lived with it and any disability from it for the rest of your life or you died. Don't get me wrong here, American Indian people did develop medical technology to treat wounds and broken bones and minor diseases. Yes there were diseases in the Americas before the Europeans arrived. Bacteria, fungi, and parasites are opportunistic and will feed on whatever doesn't kill them in the process. Viruses are most likely leftover genetic material the co-evolved with life for some reason or other and are found just about anywhere life is. As a biologist once said "everything is looking for a source of carbon and you just happen to be on the menu". Did American Indian people have what we today would define as a "hospital"? Probably not, but they for the sake of survival they for sure had people within the tribes and clans that knew how to treat injuries and disease.

One final thought. This idea that hospitals and vaccines are bad is coming back to haunt us. Diseases that were all but eradicated are making a come back amongst the morons who think vaccines are poison. Nature will eventually weed those people out. Survival of the fittest is the rule of nature whether we like it or not.
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Old 10-27-2014, 01:57 PM   #3
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Wow Toolbox, very well put. Now, I could be wrong here, but I believe life expectancy as longer prior to settlers/conquistadors landing, right? But yes, there were already medicines and ways to heal, hence the terms "Medicine Woman" and "Healers" ... I actually prefer a lot of the "old" remedies rather than the pharmaceuticals that are offered today (for minor things such as sinus head ache, sun burn, etc).
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Old 10-27-2014, 02:38 PM   #4
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You are all full of it ! Life was hard. 35-50 was old. One source : Don't Blame Columbus for All the Indians' Ills - New York Times

We may not have had the diseases , but life in general was very hard. The slightest mistake could kill you. You all are dreaming if you think life back then was so much better. You all never look at the entire picture , only what you want to see !
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Old 10-27-2014, 03:57 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeenaBear View Post
Wow Toolbox, very well put. Now, I could be wrong here, but I believe life expectancy as longer prior to settlers/conquistadors landing, right? But yes, there were already medicines and ways to heal, hence the terms "Medicine Woman" and "Healers" ... I actually prefer a lot of the "old" remedies rather than the pharmaceuticals that are offered today (for minor things such as sinus head ache, sun burn, etc).
Life expectancy is something hard to calculate on a group of people that didn't log such events in a meaningful way.

Whats killing ndn people today isn't the existence of hospitals and pharmaceuticals it's a lack of access to those things amongst other troubles and socioeconomic issues. Those issues include alcoholism, drug use, crime, little access to quality food, a poor education system, deteriorated family structures, and housing to name a few. Those issues are similar to those living in poverty in cities and rural areas throughout the country.

Frybread, we all love it, but it is one of the worst things you could eat at almost 700 or more calories of empty calories, sugars and fat. It's made with commodity ingredients that are super cheap and a piece of frybread is filling. Eat it frequently over a lifetime and you're going to be faced with a lot of health problems, like heart disease, that will probably be the death of you. That's an example of a combination of the issues in the previous paragraph.

Some of those old remedies work well, in fact willow bark contains something similar to aspirin. Technology allowed scientist to synthesize it and mass produce it. Aloe is all natural and is great on sun burns and other skin ailments. Atropine is derived from the Deadly Nightshade (Atropa Belladonna) and has several medically important uses, although if you consume it without medical training you will most certainly die. There are also a ton of bull poop natural remedies that don't work and some are downright dangerous.
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:26 PM   #6
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It's all gravy till someone needs a triple bypass.

Or a cancer removed

Or an appendectomy

to name a few
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:35 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
Life expectancy is something hard to calculate on a group of people that didn't log such events in a meaningful way.

Whats killing ndn people today isn't the existence of hospitals and pharmaceuticals it's a lack of access to those things amongst other troubles and socioeconomic issues. Those issues include alcoholism, drug use, crime, little access to quality food, a poor education system, deteriorated family structures, and housing to name a few. Those issues are similar to those living in poverty in cities and rural areas throughout the country.

Frybread, we all love it, but it is one of the worst things you could eat at almost 700 or more calories of empty calories, sugars and fat. It's made with commodity ingredients that are super cheap and a piece of frybread is filling. Eat it frequently over a lifetime and you're going to be faced with a lot of health problems, like heart disease, that will probably be the death of you. That's an example of a combination of the issues in the previous paragraph.

Some of those old remedies work well, in fact willow bark contains something similar to aspirin. Technology allowed scientist to synthesize it and mass produce it. Aloe is all natural and is great on sun burns and other skin ailments. Atropine is derived from the Deadly Nightshade (Atropa Belladonna) and has several medically important uses, although if you consume it without medical training you will most certainly die. There are also a ton of bull poop natural remedies that don't work and some are downright dangerous.
I like this discussion.

Herbology has gained ground as a respected science in the medical field today, as well as in med school curriculum; albeit in some countries more than others.

Aloe for example has natural enzymes only present while the plant is fresh cut that renders it far less useful by the time it has been turned into an over the counter med.

It's extremely effective for treating burns. I'm excited about many of the studies underway right now on the medicinal properties of many foods.
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Old 10-28-2014, 12:57 AM   #8
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I was taking echinacea before it was cool. LOL! My Grandfather grew it-along with a ton of other stuff-and if I was at his house and he thought I was coming down with something, it would be echinacea tea and honey until he thought I was better. I use a lot of herbal stuff rather than OTC meds if I can. Ginger and lemon tea is great for knocking out a sore throat, and the elderberry syrup I make and take all winter keeps me from coming down with colds or the flu.
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Old 10-29-2014, 03:07 AM   #9
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You are a native?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
The notion that American Indians lived without technology is entirely false. They invented, engineered, and farmed like everyone else in the world did. The technology may be primitive in today's standards or maybe in contrast to the developments in Europe and Asia. Look at the bow and arrow, simple machine that is essentially a stick with a length of sinew tied to the ends. It actually isn't that simple. First of all people had to experiment with different woods to find the species with the right balance of rigidity, flexibility and shape memory (ability to return to the relaxed state after the arrow is fired). Secondly they had to invent a way to make sinew not biodegrade so it can be used to string a bow. Speaking about making sinew last a long time - people also managed to figure out how to tan hides using the animal's brain. Canoes also took some engineering as not every type of wood can be carved into a canoe. Look at what the Mayan tribes built for some of the best examples of American Indian technology - some of which rival and exceed what the Egyptians built.

Everything we have today is built on advances that have been developing for millennia. Computers are based on calculators that were based on adding machines that were based on the Abacus that was based on something else. Simple put technology is part of human evolution.

The idea that animals live without hospitals and so therefore hospitals are not necessary is just plain silly. Hospitals are just another example of technological evolution. Medical science is why we are living longer and surviving from stuff that would otherwise kill us slowly and painfully. Imagine you are walking around the desert and you see a cute little rattle snake and decide to pet it, chances are the snake won't like this and will bite you thus injecting venom into your hand. If you call 911 from your cell phone you can receive life saving medical treatment and be good as new again in a few weeks. Now same scenario except you took a time machine back to the days before the settlers and conquistadors landed. You pet the rattle snake and it bites you. This time you have no cell phone and no hospital, what do you do? You die, that's what you do and if you managed to survive the bite the necrosis and gangrene will eventually do you in. With hospitals that's not so much of a problem any more.

So how did ancient people's here live without hospitals? Well we can't fully say for sure but I'd be willing to bet if an injury happened either you lived with it and any disability from it for the rest of your life or you died. Don't get me wrong here, American Indian people did develop medical technology to treat wounds and broken bones and minor diseases. Yes there were diseases in the Americas before the Europeans arrived. Bacteria, fungi, and parasites are opportunistic and will feed on whatever doesn't kill them in the process. Viruses are most likely leftover genetic material the co-evolved with life for some reason or other and are found just about anywhere life is. As a biologist once said "everything is looking for a source of carbon and you just happen to be on the menu". Did American Indian people have what we today would define as a "hospital"? Probably not, but they for the sake of survival they for sure had people within the tribes and clans that knew how to treat injuries and disease.

One final thought. This idea that hospitals and vaccines are bad is coming back to haunt us. Diseases that were all but eradicated are making a come back amongst the morons who think vaccines are poison. Nature will eventually weed those people out. Survival of the fittest is the rule of nature whether we like it or not.
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Old 10-29-2014, 05:19 AM   #10
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(Warning gross-oversimplification alert. You want the whole spiel, read Guns, Germs and Steel.)

I caution you against assuming that at the time of contact we were all the Hollyweird, plains Indian hunter-gathers. At contact many, if not most people, in the New World were settled agriculturalists, living in towns and cities. Many of these cities were larger and more sophisticated than those in Europe. At the time of contact, the level of technological development between the New and Old Worlds -- in some areas -- wasn't that different. Many within the New World lived lives that wouldn't have been all that different from those of farm-folk in much of Europe.

One big difference was the Old World had many more species that were docile enough to domesticate. This gave a huge labor saving advantage. And that little zoonosis thing. Living cheek to jowl in the filth of domesticated animals gives an excellent chance to disease to jump species, creating an selective pressure that developed immunities. Domesticated animals allowed faster travel between bio-diverse regions, spreading more disease.

This made the people from the Old World unknowning biological weapons of mass destruction. The post-contact societies of the New World are also post-apocalyptic. Despite whether you're a high counter or low counter of pre-Columbian population, the New World was emptied of most of its indigenous population rapidly. It is hard to actually assess what technology was lost.

It is also easy to forget most of the medical advances that extend our lives today were made post-contact. In the early years of the post-Columbian exchange, the medical technologies of Native people and Europeans weren't all that different. We all relied on plants to synthesize biologically active molecules. We had significant edge on cleanliness, since we didn't believe bathing was actually bad for you. By and large our healer's didn't bleed already weakened patients to correct "imbalances of the humours." In some areas we practiced fairly sophisticated surgical interventions:
Inca surgeons
But prior to 1942 -- yes, nineteen-forty-two -- a simple cut or puncture, in any culture or society, could led to a painful death.

All in all, most of us will take post antibiotic, post vaccination, post public water and sewage works societies. Those who claim otherwise are underestimating just how easy it is to sicken and die.
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Old 10-29-2014, 05:32 AM   #11
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I want to say one more thing... (Really OLC, we're so surprised that you want to rant on.)

Natural does not mean safe. Ricin is a natural product. Plants are skilled biochemists. They have a wonderfully tuned ability to produce just the biologically active enatomers. And they are not making these chemicals for our benefit; often they are defensive substances to protect against predation. Remember, despite being naturally derived, a chemical made by a plant is the same as the one made in a lab and is equally dangerous.

The traditional knowledge of an herbalist encompasses detailed knowledge of those factors which influence concentration of biologically active species with in the plant. They also know where to harvest such plants, important information since some herbs used in traditional medicine can concentrate toxic elements in the soil and must be gathered from safe ground. Further, they learn to control the extraction of chemicals from the plants, controlling dosage.

Proper care and respect needs to be used when harvesting and preparing herbal medicines. Without the guidance of a traditionally trained practitioner, one takes the same risk self-prescribing from the Native pharmacy as from the corner drugstore.
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Old 10-29-2014, 06:35 AM   #12
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I imagined the Native American philosophy as:

1. Hospital means technology
2. Technology means factories
3. Factories mean destroying the planet
4. We all die somehow, dying early is not a problem
5. We will practice spiritual and natural healing and self-develop in this direction where miracles are certainly possible.
6. We will not sacrifice the planet earth for nothing.

If this was not the Native American philosophy, I will leave Native Americans.

I also suspect that you were assimilated (because it was not easy certainly )... I hope you were not.
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Old 10-29-2014, 07:00 AM   #13
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You are a native?
Yes
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Old 10-29-2014, 07:04 AM   #14
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What's wrong with technology? It's part of evolution and part of being an intelligent species.

1 - Hospital means saving lives.
2 - Factories make stuff. Where do you think the computer or phone you have was assembled and the parts that comprise it are made?
3 - Factories can be bad but only if the government allows them to pollute rather than manage waste and energy. In the US we have the EPA whereas in China they dump whatever the heck they want. In fact there is a river in China that is a brilliant shade of blue as it is polluted with dyes used in clothing manufacturing, especially the blue dye used in denim.
4 - Dying early is a problem. We have evolved to fight off disease and injuries and we developed technology to help us win the fight. Just as other intelligent creatures, like chimps, have used tools to kill things.
5 - Spiritual healing is something that technology can't help because it's metaphysical but relying on it to heal physical injuries is just silly. Miracles can happen but to place all your eggs in that basket is foolish.
6 - That's what the "Green Technology" industry is all about. We have realized that the current methods of making things and how we convert energy (yes, energy is converted not created) is harmful and we are developing newer technologies that won't destroy the planet.

Your statement:
Quote:
If this was not the Native American philosophy, I will leave Native Americans.
This comes off as saying that you are using a romanticized and Hollywood view of American Indians. It sounds as if you are taking the "Noble Savage" view that we are all hardcore environmentalists hippies. The reality is that we can be just as good or bad as anyone else.

I try to do my part by turning off lights, unplugging chargers and things not in use, recycling everything, and I take a train to and from work everyday rather than drive my truck. I also salvage parts from circuit boards to use in other projects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by green5 View Post
I imagined the Native American philosophy as:

1. Hospital means technology
2. Technology means factories
3. Factories mean destroying the planet
4. We all die somehow, dying early is not a problem
5. We will practice spiritual and natural healing and self-develop in this direction where miracles are certainly possible.
6. We will not sacrifice the planet earth for nothing.

If this was not the Native American philosophy, I will leave Native Americans.

I also suspect that you were assimilated (because it was not easy certainly )... I hope you were not.
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Last edited by Toolbox; 10-29-2014 at 10:17 AM..
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Old 10-29-2014, 07:17 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green5 View Post
I imagined the Native American philosophy as:

1. Hospital means technology
2. Technology means factories
3. Factories mean destroying the planet
4. We all die somehow, dying early is not a problem
5. We will practice spiritual and natural healing and self-develop in this direction where miracles are certainly possible.
6. We will not sacrifice the planet earth for nothing.

If this was not the Native American philosophy, I will leave Native Americans.

I also suspect that you were assimilated (because it was not easy certainly )... I hope you were not.
1.Dying early is a problem.

2.Dying early is a problem.

3........
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Old 10-29-2014, 07:18 AM   #16
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You are a native?
He's from the Melmac tribe. They eat cats.
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Old 10-29-2014, 07:33 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green5 View Post
I imagined the Native American philosophy as:

1. Hospital means technology
2. Technology means factories
3. Factories mean destroying the planet
4. We all die somehow, dying early is not a problem
5. We will practice spiritual and natural healing and self-develop in this direction where miracles are certainly possible.
6. We will not sacrifice the planet earth for nothing.

If this was not the Native American philosophy, I will leave Native Americans.

I also suspect that you were assimilated (because it was not easy certainly )... I hope you were not.
Are you Native? What people?
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Old 10-29-2014, 09:52 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gilisi View Post
He's from the Melmac tribe. They eat cats.
Here's me:
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Old 10-29-2014, 10:18 AM   #19
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Ok I edited my previous post (number 14) now that I'm at my computer.
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Old 10-29-2014, 11:30 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green5 View Post
I imagined the Native American philosophy as:

1. Hospital means technology
2. Technology means factories
3. Factories mean destroying the planet
4. We all die somehow, dying early is not a problem
5. We will practice spiritual and natural healing and self-develop in this direction where miracles are certainly possible.
6. We will not sacrifice the planet earth for nothing.

If this was not the Native American philosophy, I will leave Native Americans.

I also suspect that you were assimilated (because it was not easy certainly )... I hope you were not.
You're not from around here, are you?
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