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Old 10-30-2014, 01:06 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green5 View Post
I imagined the Native American philosophy as:

1. Hospital means technology
2. Technology means factories
3. Factories mean destroying the planet
4. We all die somehow, dying early is not a problem
5. We will practice spiritual and natural healing and self-develop in this direction where miracles are certainly possible.
6. We will not sacrifice the planet earth for nothing.

If this was not the Native American philosophy, I will leave Native Americans.

I also suspect that you were assimilated (because it was not easy certainly )... I hope you were not.

Are you Native? If so, why would you leave your culture?
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Old 10-30-2014, 01:08 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
I want to say one more thing... (Really OLC, we're so surprised that you want to rant on.)

Natural does not mean safe. Ricin is a natural product. Plants are skilled biochemists. They have a wonderfully tuned ability to produce just the biologically active enatomers. And they are not making these chemicals for our benefit; often they are defensive substances to protect against predation. Remember, despite being naturally derived, a chemical made by a plant is the same as the one made in a lab and is equally dangerous.

The traditional knowledge of an herbalist encompasses detailed knowledge of those factors which influence concentration of biologically active species with in the plant. They also know where to harvest such plants, important information since some herbs used in traditional medicine can concentrate toxic elements in the soil and must be gathered from safe ground. Further, they learn to control the extraction of chemicals from the plants, controlling dosage.

Proper care and respect needs to be used when harvesting and preparing herbal medicines. Without the guidance of a traditionally trained practitioner, one takes the same risk self-prescribing from the Native pharmacy as from the corner drugstore.

Bravo!! The elderberries I use for the syrup HAVE to be cooked. They cannot be consumed raw because they contain a cynaide derivative. That's just one example of how herbs can go wrong. I just buy the herbs I want from a reputable online dealer.
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Old 10-30-2014, 04:52 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by subeeds View Post
Bravo!! The elderberries I use for the syrup HAVE to be cooked. They cannot be consumed raw because they contain a cynaide derivative.

Yes, the cyanogenic glycoside sambunigrin ((2S)-(beta-D-Glucopyranosyloxy)(phenyl)acetonitrile) and the alkaloid sambucine -- a purgative. The emulsin released from damaged cells in the plant during cooking breaks down the sambunigrin to form hydrocyanic acid, which is volatile and driven off by heating. Pretty much the same thing that goes on with amygdalin in chokecherry processing.
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Old 10-30-2014, 06:37 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by subeeds View Post
Are you Native? If so, why would you leave your culture?
No I am not native.
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Old 10-30-2014, 07:49 AM   #25
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I would like to ask my question again:

I am from Turkey. I admired and imagined the Native American philosophy as:

1. Hospital means technology
2. Technology means factories
3. Factories mean destroying the planet
4. We all die somehow, dying early is not a problem
5. We will practice spiritual and natural healing and self-develop in this direction where miracles are certainly possible.
6. We will not sacrifice the planet earth for nothing.

Is this true?
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Old 10-30-2014, 07:55 AM   #26
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I answered your question several posts ago. I did so in an itemized list. Others have also chimed in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by green5 View Post
I would like to ask my question again:

I am from Turkey. I admired and imagined the Native American philosophy as:

1. Hospital means technology
2. Technology means factories
3. Factories mean destroying the planet
4. We all die somehow, dying early is not a problem
5. We will practice spiritual and natural healing and self-develop in this direction where miracles are certainly possible.
6. We will not sacrifice the planet earth for nothing.

Is this true?
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Old 10-30-2014, 07:57 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green5 View Post
I would like to ask my question again:

I am from Turkey. I admired and imagined the Native American philosophy as:

1. Hospital means technology
2. Technology means factories
3. Factories mean destroying the planet
4. We all die somehow, dying early is not a problem
5. We will practice spiritual and natural healing and self-develop in this direction where miracles are certainly possible.
6. We will not sacrifice the planet earth for nothing.

Is this true?
No
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Old 10-30-2014, 08:15 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green5 View Post
I would like to ask my question again:

I am from Turkey. I admired and imagined the Native American philosophy as:

1. Hospital means technology
2. Technology means factories
3. Factories mean destroying the planet
4. We all die somehow, dying early is not a problem
5. We will practice spiritual and natural healing and self-develop in this direction where miracles are certainly possible.
6. We will not sacrifice the planet earth for nothing.

Is this true?
A simple spear for hunting is considered 'technology'.

Any kind of makeshift shelter could be defined as 'technology'.

How would you live without technology? No one can. Your questions don't follow common sense.

I have worked in surgical and cardiac critical care units, as well as in the E.R. Now I'm a pediatric nurse. I have seen people die too early, and even put them in bags. I have seen people live who really had no chance at all, and I have only been doing this for four years.

The point is... deal with the hand you are dealt. Your situation now, look at it. Use your imagination for realistic solutions to real problems.

If you are against "sacrificing the planet" then be sure you don't. Just don't forget that people are a part of it.
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Old 10-30-2014, 10:15 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gilisi View Post
A simple spear for hunting is considered 'technology'.

Any kind of makeshift shelter could be defined as 'technology'.

How would you live without technology? No one can. Your questions don't follow common sense.

I have worked in surgical and cardiac critical care units, as well as in the E.R. Now I'm a pediatric nurse. I have seen people die too early, and even put them in bags. I have seen people live who really had no chance at all, and I have only been doing this for four years.

The point is... deal with the hand you are dealt. Your situation now, look at it. Use your imagination for realistic solutions to real problems.

If you are against "sacrificing the planet" then be sure you don't. Just don't forget that people are a part of it.
The question is not how we define technology. The question is what kind of technology pollutes the planet. A spear for hunting does not pollute the planet. Medical devices pollute the planet because you need all kind of factories and electric cables all around the planet.

I have read a statement by a native american. I cannot find it on the Web now, it was something like this:

Before the white man came, we were very happy. We hunted all day and made love all night. It is crazy that white man imagined that they could invent a better system.

He did not mention any serious health problem nor a need for hospitals.

I know that in Turkey too in small villages, there is no electricity and people are healthier.

Finally, are you certain human can do better than the supreme being (or, the great spirit)? I really do not believe that human can do better. The health solutions should be in the nature already. But we did not research enough.

For example, you do not research on subconscious mind, subconscious telepathy etc.

The answer for a secure life should be in the nature.

We cannot do better than the supreme being.
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Old 10-30-2014, 10:20 AM   #30
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Quote:
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I admired and imagined the Native American philosophy....
The key word is imagined. This is romanticized nonsense. If you plan to leave us, because we haven't turned out to be what you wanted us to be... Well, you won't be the first. I suspect you won't be the last. Non-Indians like their imagined Indians much much better than us problematic, too human real Indians. I think this is why they especially like our safely dead ancestors. The dead Indians don't protest when they are forced into Rousseau's old clothes of the Noble Savage.


My people prayed and still pray: "That these people might live." They developed the best adaptive technology they could to live in their world. They were and are keen observers of their land, and conformed their technology to best respect the forces the they understood to be sustaining their lives. They engaged in large scale interventions with their environment, like burning off vast areas of grass to encourage the growth of tender fodder for their main prey animals, and to clean the underbrush to encourage certain berries, herbs and animals. (Heck of a carbon footprint, that.)

They studied animals and plants amassing knowledge to intervene in illness and injury. And I strongly suspect had you asked my great-great-grandmother who lost a sister, son and two brothers in one day from imported cholera if she'd have had any trouble with the use of a few bags of IV solution that might have saved their lives, she'd have said no. She'd have welcomed it.

The old days weren't a utopia. (If you have any doubts on that, come to South Dakota in January and trot outside the ol' tipi in a howling blizzard to urinate. I suspect you'll rethink that technology thing, real fast.) Does industrialization have problems? Of course. Does it have blessings? Absolutely. Can we learn to manage it? I'd like to believe so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by green5 View Post
I know that in Turkey too in small villages, there is no electricity and people are healthier.
How much of that is a result of sick ones dying off? Evolutionary biologists call that selective pressure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by green5 View Post
I have read a statement by a native american. I cannot find it on the Web now, it was something like this:

Before the white man came, we were very happy. We hunted all day and made love all night. It is crazy that white man imagined that they could invent a better system.

He did not mention any serious health problem nor a need for hospitals.
That was a pithy one-line for some nosy white-guy, not a well reasoned synopsis of pre-contact conditions. Also please note a worldview difference. Hunting in most of Europe was a recreational activity of the land owning elites. In the our societies it was the deadly serious business of survival. And knowing my peoples' fondness for sexual continence for social and religious reasons, I rather doubt the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by green5 View Post
We cannot do better than the supreme being.
Who gave us hands and the brains to use them.

Last edited by OLChemist; 10-30-2014 at 10:40 AM.. Reason: Additions and spelling.
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Old 10-30-2014, 10:32 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
The key word is imagined. This is romanticized nonsense. If you plan to leave us, because we haven't turned out to be what you wanted us to be... Well, you won't be the first. I suspect you won't be the last. Non-Indians like their imagined Indians much much better than us problematic, too human real Indians. I think this is why the especially like our safely dead ancestors. The dead Indians don't protest when they are forced into Rousseau's old clothes of the Noble Savage.


My people prayed and still pray: "That these people might live." They developed the best adaptive technology they could to live in their world. They were and are keen observers of their land, and conformed their technology to best respect the forces the they understood to be sustaining their lives. They engaged in large scale interventions with their environment, like burning off vast areas of grass to encourage the growth of tender fonder for their main prey animals, and to clean the underbrush to encourage certain berries, herbs and animals.

They studied animals and plants amassing knowledge to intervene in illness and injury. And I strongly suspect had you asked my great-great-grandmother who lost a sister, son and two brothers in one day from imported cholera if she'd have had any trouble with the use of a few bags of IV solution that might have save their lives, she'd have said no. She'd have welcomed it.

But the old days weren't a utopia. (If you have any doubts on that, come to South Dakota in January and trot outside the ol' tipi in a howling blizzard to urinate. I suspect you'll rethink that technology thing, real fast.) Does industrialization have problems? Of course. Does it have blessings? Absolutely. Can we learn to manage it? I'd like to believe so.
We become cancer or lose our minds because of technology. We do not die one way or another? All we need is sedatives and I believe that this is present in the nature.

The quote I talked about:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_p408wBgvVF...went-wrong.jpg
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Old 10-30-2014, 10:38 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
The key word is imagined. This is romanticized nonsense. If you plan to leave us, because we haven't turned out to be what you wanted us to be... Well, you won't be the first. I suspect you won't be the last. Non-Indians like their imagined Indians much much better than us problematic, too human real Indians. I think this is why they especially like our safely dead ancestors. The dead Indians don't protest when they are forced into Rousseau's old clothes of the Noble Savage.


My people prayed and still pray: "That these people might live." They developed the best adaptive technology they could to live in their world. They were and are keen observers of their land, and conformed their technology to best respect the forces the they understood to be sustaining their lives. They engaged in large scale interventions with their environment, like burning off vast areas of grass to encourage the growth of tender fodder for their main prey animals, and to clean the underbrush to encourage certain berries, herbs and animals. (Heck of a carbon footprint, that.)

They studied animals and plants amassing knowledge to intervene in illness and injury. And I strongly suspect had you asked my great-great-grandmother who lost a sister, son and two brothers in one day from imported cholera if she'd have had any trouble with the use of a few bags of IV solution that might have save their lives, she'd have said no. She'd have welcomed it.

But the old days weren't a utopia. (If you have any doubts on that, come to South Dakota in January and trot outside the ol' tipi in a howling blizzard to urinate. I suspect you'll rethink that technology thing, real fast.) Does industrialization have problems? Of course. Does it have blessings? Absolutely. Can we learn to manage it? I'd like to believe so.



How much of that is a result of sick ones dying off? Evolutionary biologists call that selective pressure.



That was a pithy one-line for some nosy white-guy, not a well reasoned synopsis of pre-contact conditions. Also please note a worldview difference. Hunting in most of Europe was a recreational activity of the land owning elites. In the our societies it was the deadly serious business of survival. And knowing my peoples' fondness for sexual continence for social and religious reasons, I rather doubt the other.



Who gave us hands and the brains to use them.
The brain is probably for doing research about supreme being. Not for inventing random technology.
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Old 10-30-2014, 11:05 AM   #33
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^that's me takin the high road
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Old 10-30-2014, 11:11 AM   #34
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Fascinante!

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Old 10-30-2014, 11:35 AM   #35
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^that's me takin the high road
I do not see which part is funny. (You appear like other americans that I met on the Web.)

I believe that dying early for saving the nature (i.e. not creating factories for technology) is acceptable. We die one way or another. At least, die for the nature.

The problem is pain and for this, nature has analgesic herbs probably.

I believe that this was the Native American way but it is probably lost today.

If you want to do use your brain, do research on subconscious telepathy. You need real intelligence.
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Old 10-30-2014, 11:59 AM   #36
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I do not see which part is funny. (You appear like other americans that I met on the Web.)

I believe that dying early for saving the nature (i.e. not creating factories for technology) is acceptable. We die one way or another. At least, die for the nature.

The problem is pain and for this, nature has analgesic herbs probably.

I believe that this was the Native American way but it is probably lost today.

If you want to do use your brain, do research on subconscious telepathy. You need real intelligence.
Good lookin out. I'll work on gaining real intelligence. Thanks!
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Old 10-30-2014, 12:29 PM   #37
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Congratulations for being the straw that broke this camel's back.

Your newspaper clipping is a yet another telling of an old Indian joke. As I said it is a pithy one-liner to put an uppity white man in his place. However, I'm sure you'll believe that before me since it has a picture of an old Indian with braids and a nice Indian sounding name. Much more convincing than the writings of a Native woman in her lab.

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I believe that this was the Native American way but it is probably lost today.
I just knew that this argument would end with us being declared inauthentic. You are from Turkey. You are not a Native person. But, I am. I know my people; I know what we believe. But, you as a non-Native person can tell me my ways are lost. Excuse me?

You don't know what we believe. You don't even seem to know we have many many different tribes with different cultures and different philosophies. All you want is for us to be your imagined Indians.

Why is it every time we disagree with a non-Indian, their ultimate rebuttal to our argument is to tell us we aren't real Indians and don't know our own ways? We tell Hobs that they are appropriating our culture, they tell us they are preserving it because we can't. We disagree with an armchair anthro's interpretation of our culture and they tell us we don't know our culture. We tell New Agers that these are our ways, not theirs, and they tell us we are disgraces to our ancestors. Non-Indians always have to assume ownership and make themselves the gatekeepers of truth and authenticity. Intellectual Columbuses!
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Old 10-30-2014, 12:47 PM   #38
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Old 10-30-2014, 01:00 PM   #39
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I know, right?

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Old 10-30-2014, 02:38 PM   #40
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I do not see which part is funny. (You appear like other americans that I met on the Web.)

I believe that dying early for saving the nature (i.e. not creating factories for technology) is acceptable. We die one way or another. At least, die for the nature.

The problem is pain and for this, nature has analgesic herbs probably.

I believe that this was the Native American way but it is probably lost today.

If you want to do use your brain, do research on subconscious telepathy. You need real intelligence.
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