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Old 09-23-2002, 08:02 PM   #21
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What? I can't believe what I'm hearing.

You are totally clueless. Do you really think that all there was in North America was a bunch of idiots who wondered around doing nothing except surviving off of what they could scring up. Because this is what your suggesting. If I recal correctly the pilgrims were dying of starvation and were saved by Indians who taught them how to, What is the word? Oh yea! GROW (as in agriculture) food.

There were numerous tribes (millions of people) who were settled in cities such as Pueblos of which agriculture was their main source of food. Our technology and philosophy was in my opinion just as advanced if not more advanced than Europeans. Even though it may seem simple to you our way of living was engenious compared to yours. We lived the simple lives we did because we were smarter than Europeans not because we were less advanced.

I guess the Aztecs 360 day calander, engenious architecture (as in temples, cities, canals, irrigation, etc...), farms (as in agriculture), written language (Spaniars burned thousands of years worth of scrolls) isn' quite as civilized as your filthy disease wridden European cities where people threw there waste right in the street and didn't believe in bathing (White imigrants mocked us for bathing, they said it was unhealthy). I wonder why there were diseases in Europe, but not here.

I guess the wampum belts used in Iriquio tradition to record things doesn't count as writing. I guess democracy isn't a civilized way of doing things. I guess a dictatorship where one man tells everone what to do and forbids them to believe how they want to believe is civilized.

I can see where you had the right to take our land, murder our families (women and little babies), rape our wives and daughters, fobid our language song and dance. I understand how right you were to deprive us of our dignity. I understand now. We are savages. We are savages because we are not two faced, lying, gold digging, back stabbers who are only about ourselves. We are savages because we don't think we are the supreme race and everyone else is not quite human (even when Indians were christianized and settled they were still shipped out, remember the Trail of tears and the five CIvILIZED tribes), we are savages because we understand that we come from the earth and that it must be taken care of in order for us to servive, we are savages because we take baths, we are savages because we are friendly and try to help others out, we are savages because we didn't invent devices of mass destruction, we are savages because we didn't try to anhialate those who we had conflicts with ( when we did battle we did it to prove a point not to kill, in most battles of 40 or 50 people maybe one or two people would lose their lives), we are savages because we lived simple and happy without the daily stress we have today, we are savages because we didn't drink intoxicating drinks and wake up in our own vomit, we are savages because we didn't believe in hitting our children and breaking their spirit, we are savages because we don't kill everything in sight.

I challenge you to find one (only one) United States treaty with an American Nation that gave that nation anything. They weren't treaties they were altimatums. This country is supposedly founded on honor, freedom, integrity, and justice. This is the biggest crock of sh1t I have ever heard. The US has no shivalry, honor or integrity. I gaurantee if other nations no longer had any military power that the US would violate the hell out of their treaties. They don't honor ours because they don't have to. European culture is modeled to dominate , destroy, back stab, and cross everyone at any chance it gets. Please don't take it personal, but the whole Christianity thing is what 99% of it boils down to. The very first book Genesis says it all. Women were created for man, animals were created for man, etc... was created just for man (even though man is made out of the exact same thing as a deer or a bird, no better no worse). In the whole book the Jews are refered to as the chosen people, meaning that they are better than everyone else. That ideology passed on to the Christians and guess what its here today.
Indians were pagan Gentils not quite human, they didn't believe the same as whites so it was the white's duty to get rid of them. It's amazing how the bible can be used to cover up sins that it itself condemns (murder, rape, etc....).


I'm beggining to see clearly which culture is uncivilized. The fact of the matter is that the true savages came accross the ocean on boats.

*I don't want anyone to take this personal, native or not, Christian or not, I am not a prejudice person in the least and I have no problem with anyone believing the way they want to believe. I appologize for getting off topic, but I just wanted to offer a new perspective on things that you may not have seen.

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Old 09-23-2002, 11:55 PM   #22
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Lumbee said it all! Can't believe that anyone would have the audacity and ignorance to even suggest that indengious people of this land were not civilized. There were cities that rivaled the size and complexity of those in Europe! And as it has been pointed out, biological warfare is well documented as a FACT in solving the Indian 'problem'!
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Old 09-24-2002, 12:33 AM   #23
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More than one reference has been made, that todays govt, was based on the govt of the Five Civilised Tribes!! They all VOTED on their Chiefs!! They were chosen men!! This is where the white Govt decided to base their Govt on, and evoled from there, the big difference? The Five Civilised Tribes, did not lie cheat and steal and murder to make their Govt ..... any treaties made were kept! So much for modern Govt .... they destroyed the Five Civilised Tribes, on principal alone!
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Old 09-24-2002, 01:48 AM   #24
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Wooohoooo!!!! You said it Lumbeedancer!!!
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Old 09-24-2002, 04:14 AM   #25
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Who thought the earth was flat, while the rest of the world knew it is round? Where was there a "dark age" when all of the "smart" people, rich enough to have plumbing, died off because that plumbing was made of lead pipes, leaving the uneducated peasants and their ignorant superstitions?
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Old 09-24-2002, 09:39 AM   #26
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Where does 90% of the worlds food groups come from?
The technology of seed selection by planting rather than the destructive form of tilling the soil. There are 2000 varieties of potatoes, thousands of different corn, tomatoes etc,

Beans, peppers, tomatoes, potatoes, yam, corn, squash, pumpkin, vanilla, chocolate, and the list goes on forever.

The whites had cabbage and grain..... not observant enough to vary their diet or figure out other plants to develop.

Farms here were miles long all carefully planted. The 3 sisters grew together to benefit each other in the growth and maintaining a rich and fertile soil.

White technology rips the soil to shreds and 2 years later the soil is no longer useful.

The population of north america was 10-20 million. The population of middle america was 40 million with another 40 million in south america and 8 million in the carribean. Populations that far and exceed what hunting and gathering can provide.
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Old 09-24-2002, 03:43 PM   #27
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Actually

I was thinking in terms of having the 'most advanced ag' in the world. I find that a little bit of a stretch. Considering the Egyptians had enormous populations thousands of years ago, supported by a very small fertile strip along a river. Not to mention SE Asia having rice fields as far as the eye could see. I didn't say there was no agriculture, just wondered how you were comparing to some of the other civilizations of the world.

Better clarification ?

D
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Old 09-24-2002, 05:05 PM   #28
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10 million people in the yucatan isnt enough or the 10 million plus people in the peruvian andes with the incas? or the 30 million around central mexico? Far greater populations were these than the egyptians.

According to the census of China around 1280's they had 50 million souls over a much more usefull land mass than central mexico. India again much more fertile land than central mexico as well.
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Old 09-24-2002, 06:13 PM   #29
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We did not farm the whole continent that is for sure. In fact some tribes didn't even farm at all. But there are some tribes who lived primarily off of agriculture. Their farming methods were very far advanced. They included irrigation and all. If you look at the Pueblos and Aztecs (which lived a realatively similar life to the so called advanced Egyptians) you will see that they lived in large cities. This would be impossible without a substantially large food base to thrive off of. If you look at the Mississipians (mound builders) you will see that they had a very advanced life style as well.

The fact of the matter is that it would not have mattered how quote un quote CIVILIZED or cultivated we may have been. The end result would have been the same. I believe the term is refered to as Manifest Destiny. The whites view of the world and other people would still have been the same. The Christian ideology would still have been there. As long as we weren't Christians or white we would have still been red pagan *******s in the way of Manifest Destiny.

If we wouldn't have been the warriors that we were there probably wouldn't be any of us here today. They would have just picked off our little farming a$$'s like they did the Buffalo. The persecution of Native people has been going on for hundreds of years and continues to this day. Do you know how many Native women have been sterilized without their concent, many of which are still alive to this day (yes these things do still happen). We are a weed to white America, a thorn in their side, when they see us their conscience drives them crazy. They want to get rid of us they can't stand looking us strait in the face. Thats why they all want to be Cherokee. So they can silence that little voice in their head. Keep telling yourself that there was nothing wrong with what you did to us. Keep telling yourself you had a right to do what you did. If you say it enough times you might believe it. Keep refering to our reservations by the latter term and not as concentration camps. America is doing the same thing to us that Hitler did to the Jews. They are just more discrete about it. We are in every aspect prisoners of war nothing else. Its like the refugee camps that all those Muslims were held in. They were'nt refugee camps or refugees they were concentration camps with fancy names to make them sound less harsh.

We must conform to their ways, forget who we are, and stop making them feel guilty. We can't live as one with the land our ancestors have dwelled on for thousands of years. We cant live where our grandmothers, grandfathers, great grandmothers and great-grandfathers lived and are burried. Hell we can't even practice our beliefs in the privacy of our own home.

We as native people had no problem sharing the land with whites. We nievely welcomed, aided, and tried to befriend the racist cut throats. We made treaties with them as sovereign nations. They stabbed us in the back every chance they got and forced us out of sovereignty. Making us turn in our hunting weapons and rely on food rations that they controlled. Telling us to farm knowing damn well that they placed us on unfertile land. There are still traditional native people out there who know the ways of their anscestors. It is not to late for freedom.

Would you like me to let you in on a little secret my friend? And answer a question that your government can't seem to find the answer to. What do Indians want? What would get them off of our backs? The answer is quite simple. LEAVE US ALONE. 99% of the problems we have are caused by your meddling. We just want to be set free and allowed to be Indian.


-Those small pox blankets were given to Natives intentionally to kill them and get them out of the way. That is the bottom line, it is a fact (as in non-fiction). It was not only citizens but soldiers that did this trechory. It was indeed in every since Biological warfare. Or should I say murder of innocent men, their wives and their children.
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Old 09-25-2002, 02:02 PM   #30
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" America is doing the same thing to us that Hitler did to the Jews. "

Just the opposite actually!! Hitler was a big admirer of Pres Jackson and the way he treated the Cherokee and other NDN's, he even wrote about it in his diary, (published!) He thought so much about it, that he thought about who he could do the same thing to, and decided his Grandmother's people the Jew's would be a good example! So that is exactly what he did! Must have really hated the lady who raised him after his mother left, and his father died! Many of the American Soldiers that helped round up the Natives were part Native themselves!! There is still some controversy that Pres Jackson himself had some Native blood in him. Let alone that a couple of his favorite, and most trusted men were Cherokee, he betrayed them all!! This is the man who became a role model to Hitler!
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Old 09-25-2002, 03:10 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tsiniti
More than one reference has been made, that todays govt, was based on the govt of the Five Civilised Tribes!! They all VOTED on their Chiefs!! They were chosen men!! This is where the white Govt decided to base their Govt on, and evoled from there, the big difference? The Five Civilised Tribes, did not lie cheat and steal and murder to make their Govt ..... any treaties made were kept! So much for modern Govt .... they destroyed the Five Civilised Tribes, on principal alone!
Now are you talking about "the five civilized tribes" or the original 5 nations of the Iroquois? There's a difference.
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Old 09-25-2002, 03:47 PM   #32
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Tsiniti

Those are some very good observations.

So basically the whole coutry are a bunch of hippocrits. They talk about how Hitler did this and did that to the Jews and how terrible it was, when the fact of the matter is that they taught him, by example, how to do it. WOW!!

I would like to point out that presidents usually do what is in the best interests of the general population. Jackson may have been the one to do the dirty work, but you best believe its what the whole country wanted.

How can Americans sit there and talk so bad about Hitler and what he did when they have been doing it for centuries on a much higher scale, and continue to do it to this day. I'm not exactly sure , but I believe that there were approxomately six million Jews murdered in WWII. How many Natives have been murdered by the US? I know it is several times larger than that.

I don't think there is any surprise that Jackson stabbed everyone in the back. As I stated above that is European policy. That is what good Christian people do to to poor Red Devils. It is only natural that Hitler would admire his white brothers ingeniouse methods of genocide. He was probably banging his head against the wall saying to himself "Why didn't I think of that".

Americans these days (people like T_Dave) are so arrogant. They have that Christianity and Manifest Destiny ideology so engrained in their heads that they don't even realize that that they are wrong half the time, they think they are doing what is right (in Dave's case saying what is right). They live in their little happy go lucky white worlds clueless to what the truth is. They are unwiiling to accept that they were wrong and try to belittle us by making smart as little remarks like T-Dave has done. Dave!! keep telling yourself that, eventually your bound to convince yourself to believe it.
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Old 09-25-2002, 05:07 PM   #33
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Well lumbeedancer I love your passion and its nice to see.

6 million jews were killed in wwII out of a total population of 18 million jews. That represents a slaughter of 1/3 of the population 33%

Im going to use 10 million indians in the US pre columbus.
1 million indians when the US declared independence

250000 indians at the turn of the century in 1900.

That represents at 97.5% genocide rate versus 33.3% for the jews
Or since the US independence that represents a 75% genocide rate versus 33% of the jews.

Can anyone tell me what that means?

Also lumbeedancer your kinda mixing christianity with alot of things that arent christian.

The presidents of the US were masons for the most part. They are a group descended from Druid cults in Scotland not christianity.
Hitler was heavily into the occult not christianity, A satanist
so was most of his inner circle.

They pushed the ancient german religion in their propaganda not christianity.

Whites are more a product of roman culture than judeo-christian teachings which are eastern proverbial cultures not the greco-roman rationalism and reason cultures.
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Old 09-25-2002, 05:51 PM   #34
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Quote:
The presidents of the US were masons for the most part. They are a group descended from Druid cults in Scotland not christianity.
huh? lol... the masons had nothing to do with druids. That's like saying that new age crystal swingers are "descended" from the native tribal religions that they appropriate, distort, and misuse.

And one more thing, there is not and has never been any such thing as "druid cults". The druids were a specific class of people, a role, in Celtic tribes - namely, the shamen, judges and historians. "Druid" is not a religion, it's an avocation.
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Old 09-25-2002, 06:31 PM   #35
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I'm sure your probably right that Hitler may not have been a Christian, but I hardly think that Andrew Jackson was a druid. I am pretty sure that he was a Christian and 99.9999999% of the American population that supported his Indian conquests were'nt druids either., they were Christians as well.

What?????? 97%!!!!!! That is outragious.

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one..... two..... the hell with it!!!!:Eyepopper :guns: :8: :5:
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Old 09-25-2002, 06:48 PM   #36
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sorry didnt mean to butt in

when I went to school all the school books said the reason for expansetion was Manifest Destiny (ie. a GOD given right) ,this would mean America had a God given right to expand ,so I think christianity did play a big part in the way NDN people who were not christian were delt with. My God is bigger than your God so I have the right to do with you as I please.



maybe just showing my ignorance or lack of good schooling
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Old 09-25-2002, 10:02 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blackbear


Now are you talking about "the five civilized tribes" or the original 5 nations of the Iroquois? There's a difference.
(red faced) I probably meant the 5 nations, they ae older arn't they ..... still it was the Native American Govt that the whites learned from ..... (I remember stuying that in school!!)

I agree, Hitler was into AntiChrist!! He even tried to see himself as the AntiChrist itself!!! But then he was kind of sick in the head (more ways than one!!)
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Old 09-26-2002, 12:20 AM   #38
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Biological warfare was completely unintentional, you meant that to be sarcastic, right??? Or are you that naive??
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Old 09-26-2002, 09:40 AM   #39
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Well zeph your technically correct about the office of the druid in those celt cultural groups. However most today do generally just call them druid religions for the lack of something better.

However the druids are not that distant of a culture and the masons amazingly appeared just as the druids disappeared at the same time. When christianity took over the british isles.
So I'll stick by that. There is alot of other reasons but its a whole nother conversation.

As far as most white people being christian that is far from the truth. In the old days less than 18% of america professed to be christian. In fact very few of the founding fathers professed christianity either. Most american presidents are not christian either they just go to get the christian vote.
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Old 09-26-2002, 02:46 PM   #40
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right, well I'll just call you "moron" for lack of something better then.
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