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Old 08-31-2001, 08:03 PM   #21
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The comment about entering someones house without being invited is very interesting.

I do not know if TwoCents people do this or not but one long standing tradition of ours (Muscogee Creek/Seminole) is when you go to someones house you wait at the door and wait for permission to enter the home. The door could be wide open with peopel streaming in and out yet you wait until have permission.

TwoCents strikes me as the type who would wait at the door, thats my opinion. ALl the sarcasm about the church and, even though is light hearted, has a root that plainly shows how we feel about this issue.

Powwow is powwow, a celebration of nations, good times, good freinds, good laughs and good food. To many nations they have lost their traditions and powwow is all they have and maybe some small minor traditions. BUt this does not make it ceremony.

Ceremony is who we are, where we came from. who we were and where we are going. These things BELONG to the people/nations that these things were given to PERIOD. Who participates and who does not is up to them and not to the one who wants in on the action. I dont belive the comparison is apples/oranges, they are very much the same thing only some people refuse to see it for what it is. The underlying, unspoken premise of our words were very much in effect in those sarcastic posts, it was obvious to me. Was it obvious to anyone else?
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Old 08-31-2001, 09:40 PM   #22
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This has been a very good line to read.

And I am no scholar, and I now the many times I don't get my point across the way I want to but here it goes.

I don't think the word respect is such a bad word to use because. If you respect someone, then you must respect their right to say no. And thats a very powerful thing. I have gone to many dances and not danced. My friends would look at me and ask why I wasn't. They travel all over the country and even to Europe doing shows and competing. And when we go we have a great time because we're with good freinds. But some times I don't feel that it is appropriate to get out in the circle and dance. I have never been to a dance and asked to not dance. But if that ever happens, I will simply enjoy the dance from the side. I have been honored by my freinds many times to get up and dance with them, and this gives me the greatest feeling.
But as with any freind, sometimes we get into deep talks about many things. Most of the time it's about the ladies at the dances. But some times it's about the family and their customs or beliefs. And on sometimes we will come to things that they choose not to talk about. And that's were it ends, and we go on to something else. Sometimes my freind will come back to me later and we will talk about the subject that he chose not to talk about. But I think that respecting someone goes much deeper. In it alows a person to say no.
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Old 08-31-2001, 09:47 PM   #23
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For many there is a difference between ceremony, powwow, family event, etc.

Most (not all) powwows are adversited and open to the public. Some powwows are heavily marketed also. Now this brings up decisions for the committee and the MC. Are only NDNs the ones to dance? When the MC says "Intertribal - everybody dance" is that really all inclusive?

If you are at one this advertised, marketed and open to the public dances then you have to know that all kinds of people will be there. And if the MC calls for everybody to dance then you have to know that all kinds of people are going to accept the invitation.

Now most (not all) "ceremonies" are not advertised or open to the public. So if the public finds out some how and shows up then is up to the committee or family or whoever to make it known that it is a private event.

I realize that this in common sense, but some seem to forget that alot of dances are open to the public and at times an open invitation is giving for all people to participate. With the growth of dances and events and the heavy marketing we must see that we will have non-native people there.

Whatever the case may be, it is good to do your best to educate any that may be doing something wrong or inappropriate.
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Old 08-31-2001, 10:23 PM   #24
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Hey Two Cents!! :D

I hear you girl, I understand you....you go girl..... :D
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Old 08-31-2001, 10:27 PM   #25
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[ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: Sahnish ]
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Old 09-01-2001, 12:56 AM   #26
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Ill do you one better my brother(clipped latin speech pattern) I can refer you to the Center of Healing Prayerful Mother of our True Divine Highness Upon The Sacred Rock of Puritan Forgiving-dom Blessings Bequeethed Upon Round Yon Virginity School of Priestdom.
Its a $500 Seminar but you can be a REAL CERTIFIED PRIEST!!! Then you can bless your own beads!

Seriously though. I think its kinda of pretentious to look down upon any tribal group for THEIR right to choose who does and does not participate in their ceremonies. Ive been to ceremonies held by people of other nations. I helped where I could whether it was preparing meals or cutting wood, gathering things, assisting the elderly etc etc but I did not take it upon myself to presume that I could participate in what was being done. Its not my place for one and second its not my way. Even if asked to participate my first response would be no and thank them for the invitation. Theres an underlying, unspoken premise to being asked to particpate in ceremony that nonndn people dont get, its cultural and maybe youll learn it but after being around for a LONG time.

Maybe after spending a long time with the people, to where I could UNDERSTAND the whos, whys, and what fors and even the language, then MAYBE I would consider participating.

What is happening is people are given an inch and they want a mile..or should I say

We gave them an inch, they took 500,000 square miles.

Its the same mind set today as 500 years ago.
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Old 09-01-2001, 08:07 PM   #27
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Well. Allow me to Broaden this subject, just alittle. I undestand "Non- Natives are getting a little upset about why they cant dance at CEREMONIES or dances. Are you aware of some CEREMONIES restricting Natives!? Out here in the Southwest part of the U.S. for Example: some Hopi dances are closed to every out sider. and sometimes too relations as well. They close down the whole REZ. The Apache Holy Ground dances are by invition only. some Apache Gahn dances are private.Even yaqui dances .WE as Natives out here understand very well the reasons why we are not invited.So just because we are card packing natives Doesnt mean we can just go to a dance any where anytime either,
If the Kiowa wish to close down the dances to invition or just invite others. We as Natives must understand that as well and respect their wish to dance.
So... its just not happening just to NON NATIVES! it happens to NATIVES as well .
As for Pow Wow dances i cant answer that. i have never seen someone refused . we have a very excepted NON-NATIVE that dances out here all the time! he is well respected. the young kids love him to death, they call him Uncle!.......
Oh as for you Catholics " Down on your knees and ask for gods blessing" and ten hail marys for .....aye ! I know that way too!....Peace be with you!
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Old 09-05-2001, 04:11 PM   #28
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bla bla bla bla just stick to the question.non indians are greedy the will take everything for them selves.they have done it since they came to this place.win have you ever seen a white man give evereything hes got away (never),when has a white man put on a dance using only his money never.sure i have seen white people bring one indian into there home and provide for him but in return that white man is getting knowledge from that individual and thats the only reason white people let them in.now all the INDIANS out there do you ask for things in return when people stay with you? it is a way of life that you must live every day.why should indians let whites dance when the just indian once a month? they dont live like indians every day.this is somthing you have to do to take part in these ceromonies or you miss the whole meaning behind them.now like i said before i am not going to tell anyone to live or say anything bad to you(or to your face anyway)and no it doesnt make for a better or worse dance.but in my mind if you trully want to do these dances or sing or whatever live it every day.i know its a good way to be but you have to live it every day.you cant go to oklahoma or where ever once month to understand what these dances mean the stories and history behind them.ya you can read some it in books but you dont understand tell you are danceing praying doing everything for a pupose not to get a head but to help other people. to make god smile at you and everything around you.dont go to tie on your new moccs so you can look better than someone else.go to know the meaning behind the dances learn why we do them.listen to whats going on help someone who needs it.i know i might be preaching a little bit but i want people to know these dances all dances have a pupose and for people to learn to respect it lo live that way of life that god intended if your gonna do it do it all the way not half azz ok!now im not saying white people disrespect in the arena but do have that same respect for everything you do?do you have respect for all your suroundings?or is it that one or twice your at some kind of indian doings?learn it,live it, love it! my famous last words
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Old 09-05-2001, 05:41 PM   #29
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two-cents, who are your folks, we set camp up at carnegie,ok to. but just to let you people know, I don't think non-indians should do this dance, because they don't follow the rules that come along with it. Not trying to be hateful or any thing like that.
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Old 09-05-2001, 07:47 PM   #30
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Hello, I'm back....and in a better mood today. :D

(Thanks Sahnish and Riverwind for your comments.)

First of all, Echohawk, I will PM you regarding your question.

Next, I think the original question was, "Does excluding non-Indians really make for a better powwow/ceremony?" I liked what Az Okie had to say because that was on my mind as well when I posted. Alot of ceremonies are very strict, and restricting participation in ceremonies to just members of the nation that the ceremony belongs to is common. We accept that without question, well at least most of us do. I think it has more to do with keeping the ceremony as close to it's purest form as possible, but that is just my opinion. It has been my experience at ceremonies where they let non-Indians participate, that they don't really understand everything that is going on, but they know enough to be there. I was at a ceremony up north and the non-Indians there were very distracting!! One guy had some kind of rattle which didn't belong at this particular ceremony, and we had to put up with the non-Indians being pushy towards the people to whom the ceremony belonged, and conducting themselves in ways that were very inappropriate to that ceremony. So from my own personal experiences, I find that it's a better ceremony that excludes non-Indians.

As for what Tom Iron Eagle stated, regarding advertising ceremonies or powwows, I don't know of any ceremonies that are advertised and open to the public. The ceremonies I have participated in are not advertised, and usually just community members and their relatives, friends, and visitors are there. Powwows of course are different, and if they are advertised as open to the public then of course one should expect that non-Indians are going to attend and participate in whatever capacity.

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Old 09-06-2001, 08:28 AM   #31
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Two-cents1 - No I am not Catholic. I didn't intend to rile you, sorry. I'm just confused as to how you can compare being Catholic to "Dances that exclude Non-Indians". What has that got to do with the price of tea in China? That's not a very good comparison. Any race/nationality can be Catholic. Have you been to any Catholic websites and used being Indian and Catholic as a comparison? I'm sorry, I guess I'm just a litle confused is all.

I agree that if you attend a public pow-wow and inter-tribals are called, I'd bet most Indians would have no qualms about non-Indians participating. All I'm saying that if you're non-Indian and you're not invited then you shouldn't get your underwear in a wad over it. After all it is our culture and one of only a few things that have not been taken away from us completely just yet.
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Old 09-07-2001, 04:40 PM   #32
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The comparison to the Catholic Church was not originally intended to compare with excluding non-Indians from ceremonies or powwows. That comparison came up after Rainbow's posted and shook her virtual finger at me, and since more non-Indians are familiar with organized religion than our ceremonies, I wrote what I did trying to get people to see the correlation....trying to illustrate why it is wrong for people to think that they should be able to participate just because they like and admire our culture so much. Most people see the sense in the comparison (as indicated by the posts that followed, heavy with sarcasm as they were), and if you don't, like I said, I'm not going to bother explaining it any further. I think the recovering/practicing Catholics on the board can see it very clearly, so maybe you have to be Catholic to get it.

BTW, I much prefer the annual celebrations (not ceremonies, but celebrations) that are in Indian communities....they seem to have a very low, if non-existent, population of outrageous wannabees. No questionable whistles or "fanning up" drums, no "brushing up drums" or whatever they do in out of the way places. These celebrations/powwows don't exclude non-Indians from participating(remember Sahnish, when MTV's "Road Rules" was at Mandaree?), but outrageous acting non-Indians don't usually show up at Hwy 2 powwows and those are the ones I prefer.

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Old 09-07-2001, 05:06 PM   #33
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Just to add alittle juice to the Catholic fire. I know a very respected full blood Osage woman who goes to both NAC and Catholic church. She told me she like to cover her bases. :D
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Old 09-08-2001, 01:27 AM   #34
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[ September 08, 2001: Message edited by: Sahnish ]
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Old 09-08-2001, 01:32 AM   #35
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sahnish:
[QB]Hey two cents;
I was watching them tape that MTV show at Mandaree. Acutally some of my relative's helped hook them out with outfits etc. Speaking of Highway 2, I was up there checking out Poplar Indian days over Labor Day week end. Dusty as ever and smoky from the fire at Glacier, but like you say it is hard to beat them ol' down home celebrations, where every one knows everybody, you know what to expect and you don't get suprised to often, except from the winners. lol Was Cass Lakes labor day pow wow traditional this year? I had heard that it was going to be.
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Old 09-08-2001, 11:57 PM   #36
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So was that naming ceremony real? They seemed to like it. Wasnt one of them NDN? I remember it about 5 years ago.
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Old 09-09-2001, 07:06 PM   #37
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Sahnish, I didn't hear about any of the big guns going to Cass Lake this year, so I'm assuming it was traditional. Alot that usually go there ended up at Black River Falls, WI. I haven't been to Poplar Indian Days in a few years, so you're gonna make me depressed if you tell me anymore good stuff like that! Except tell me if there were alot of dancers, or just the usual that attend.

As for Road Rules at Mandaree, I was there and I remember them all dancing in Grand Entry, and whose outfits they wore. I talked to a few people up there and I don't recall all the stuff the cast did while they were up there, so I don't know about any ceremony. Sahnish might know, but I never got to catch the final product on TV.....could've saw myself!!!!

Sahnish, be sure to give us a full report on Tribes.....wanted to go, but have to work!

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Old 09-10-2001, 12:06 AM   #38
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I have it on tape somewhere.

Yeah, a guy did a naming ceremony and gave them all 'indian names' the only one i remember was 'two-feathers'. the rest were some hokie names too.(no offence to anyone actually named two feathers)i knew a guy who named himself two feathers tho.

So what were you wearing? I check it out when i find the tape.
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Old 09-10-2001, 04:52 PM   #39
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Tell you what I was wearing? What?! And ruin what shreds of my anonymity that remain? You must be mad..... :D .......(LOL!). Actually, I saw a little clip of myself in there a long time ago.....so I'm not going to tell you what I was weariing!

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Old 09-18-2001, 06:02 PM   #40
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Why are the indians my heroes?
Well after so many massacres,thefts of land ,racist attacks....they still hold their hand open in frienship.
In WW1 they went fighting in europe ...only to come back sometimes to no land at all[it had been stolen ]
And yet when the call came they went again to WW2 some winning the war with their native languages only to come back to a place where their children were beaten for talking that same language
In Korea,they were there,in Vietnam also [although some had some problems of conscious there]
And so on .So you see when some of them tell me that i cant dance or that i am not allowed in , I dont make a fuss i sit in the back willingly and grateful.
I must add that during 11 years in the reservation ,i was never cold,hungry,or without a roof .Every time i needed help ,i found some .Can an indian lost in the white man world say the same thing?
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I am ready to tell you my secret now,I see dumb people,.I see them everywhere.They dont know they're dumb,they only see what they want to see.That weird feeling which make the hair on your neck stand up....thats them!
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