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kneegrow_native 09-10-2002 06:33 PM

Duck and Dive
 
I was wondering what people thought of the use of duck and dive songs.

Recently I have seen duck and dives used an awful lot for Chicken Dance. I thought that the chicken dance paid homage the prairie chicken and that the duck and dives tells the story of battles (for example some elders have said the battle of Whitebird). If that is true, then the dance and song would not seem appropriate for each other.

I know that it is a good song that moves the people and gets the dancers going, but it seems that it should be reserved more men's traditional, or warriors and veterans dances.

Just my opinion. I would love to hear from everybody else.

[email protected] 09-10-2002 08:33 PM

Duck and Dive
 
You are right Knee-Grow Native, Prarie Chicken Dance songs have their own songs, separate from Duck and Dive songs. The combining of Duck and Dive with Prarie Chicken Dance competitions is a "new" trend. Sadly, our modern pow-wows will justify the Duck and Dives use in these contests as acceptable in their modern day interpretation. I remember when the Crow Hop type of songs started appearing in the Womens Fancy Shawl Dance and how mixed feelings were then. Many strongly objected to their use. However, again, modern interpretation and large audiences and money blind what is proper in tradition and today it is commonplace to hear Crow Hop type songs in Womens fancy Shawl Dance contests. I tell you if we could turn back our clocks back to when more elders were around we would not see half the things that are done at our pow-wows today because the elders would object strongly! That is fact!

luvstraightdancrs 09-10-2002 10:26 PM

They do the same thing with Horse Stealing and Trot songs.

It's usually the emcee that messes up, says let's have a horse stealing song then instructs the drum to sing a trot. Wish they could all get it straight!!!!!

Maybe Emcee 101 needs to be taught somewheres!!!!!!!

Crowboi 09-11-2002 04:28 PM

Duck and Dive
 
Shoot whatchyall talkin about? Duck and Dive originated from the Crows of Montana....I hear other tribes talkin about how they created it and shyt...its all bull! Crowz created the dance and the songs so dont be tryin to claim it!!! About the Crow Warriors dodging bullets from the calvary while counting coup and stealing horses!!!! Go to CROW FAIR and you might learn all about it!!!!PEACE!!! Oh yea, chicken dancers and dance the song kick a$$!!!!!! Dont be acting all traditional when you know money powwows are all seemingly contemporary!!!!!

Crowboi from Montana!!!!!!!
4 life and full blood

fafafancy 09-11-2002 04:40 PM

Go crowboi, go crowboi, go!!

Crowboi 09-11-2002 04:47 PM

As some of the Crow Style dancers call it...

"Dodge the bullet"

Yall crow stylerz know what I should be talkin about!

kneegrow_native 09-11-2002 05:36 PM

I didn't start this to argue over what tribe made the first duck and dive. More than a few tribes have laid claim to creating the dance. However the song that is predominately used where I live has it's origins from a particular battle. I was expressing my opinion about the correct use of the style.

I have asked people about the origins of these songs. Whether it be from Crow country or any other place the reply has been the same. The song depicts battle. What does the chicken dance depict?

So are we to throw tradition to the wind?

I got an idea, lets start making women's traditional get down on a knee and to a sneak up. Or better yet, lets really throw tradition out the door and permit drugs and alcohol on the arena. Damn, homie, I thought ya knew.

Ya know CrowBoi, at the pow-wow whether it be for money or not, there are still customs that we follow. Money isn't a good enough reason to throw traditions out the window. Is that something that you are prepared to do? Sounds like it.

Some of these dances were made for a specific reason for specific dances. When you use them for the wrong reason you run the risk of getting yourself embarrassed at a pow-wow.




[B]

Siale 09-11-2002 05:42 PM

Aiight...

Crow dancers, like the Chicken dancers, also imitate the prairie chicken. So if Crow stylerz can dance duck & dive, how come Chicken dancers can't?

Who should dance duck & dive then? Just because you're a Chicken dancer, does that mean you shouldn't go out and dodge sum bullets? Hmmmmm...........

Siale 09-11-2002 06:06 PM

I just asked mah boy what he thought of this subject....LOL....he's like, "Personally, I ain't got a problem with it as long as they're not dancing duck & dive during a chicken dance song." LoLz....

:Tongue :Tongue :Tongue :Tongue

kneegrow_native 09-11-2002 06:14 PM

Sure chicken dancers can be warriors. I never said they couldn't.

But during a chicken dance are these dancers supposed to be paying homage to the prairie chicken? If you are going to incorporate battle depiction into a chicken dance, then why not invite all the other warriors out as well.

I gotta admit I am picky about the uses of the duck and dives. I think that they are much abused songs. I think that they should be reserved for dances for the warriors, whether they dance chicken, crow, tradish, straigh, grass, fancy, etc.

luvstraightdancrs 09-12-2002 01:45 AM

Kneegrow native-----------Oklahoma straight dancers don't Duck and Dive......they don't chicken dance either-------It's not their dance.

Unless you are Crow - quit *****in'. Been to Crow Fair, saw the REAL Duck and Dive and Crow Style......Seen it in Oklahoma at times and believe me it's not the same. Chicken dance in Oklahoma seems to be different too.

Not complaining, like you......if you don't want to see it - don't watch.

Wakalapi 09-12-2002 02:18 AM

Quote:

I got an idea, lets start making women's traditional get down on a knee and to a sneak up.
Ya might be too late, sort of. Don't the fancy shawlers do something like a sneak-up and call it a "shake" ?

buckskin pantyhose 09-12-2002 11:20 AM

You got that right!
 
Siale.......YOU DA MAN.....or should i sa wo-MAN! hahaha! Couldn't have said it better myself.
Chicken dance is a style, just as Crow style, southern straight, northern contemporary, grass etc., and a lot of these STYLES dance sneak up, crow hop, chicken, trot, duck & dive, etc. I don't understand what the problem is with a chicken dancer doin' the duck & dive? Contemporary tradish dancers do the chicken, as well as the duck & dive, is that wrong? Doesn't make much sense to me! It's a style of dance that coincides with a category in todays powwows.
Yea, the chicken dancers do imitate the prairie chicken....but not all powwows host a category for Chicken only, haven't you seen them in northern tradish categories, is this wrong? should they not take part in the sneak up as well? Be easy kneegrow_native!

~Buckskinz

lsijohn 09-12-2002 02:03 PM

I also say let 'em duck n dive.

This may be a new "trend". But this may also be called evolution.

Way back in history this dance may have been done different..........but this is how the dance evolved, or changed. I wouldn't say that we are throwing tradition into the wind......

Why just pick out the prairie chicken dance if you want to pick on dance styles and how they've changed?? All of our dance categories have seen some change over the years!!

Siale 09-12-2002 04:45 PM

Re: Duck and Dive
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Crowboi
Dont be acting all traditional
Man...everyone on powwows.com should take that home w/dem...hahahaa;););)

Saponi4ever 09-16-2002 10:56 AM

I have to agree that dance and song styles have definitely changed over the years. Fifteen years ago most folks out here in the east had never seen the Jingle Dress dance, now its one of the more "popular" styles. I had never heard of a double beat crow hop until last year at Kinder. At Cherokee this year we drew a double beat crow hop for contest and had never sang one. We don't even have that type of song. We ended up singing our chicken song for a double beat crow hop, so go figure. It amazes me how dancers and singers are expected to know songs and dances of other tribes, if you haven't been exposed to it you just don't know. This past weekend a drum sang a double-beat crow hop for men's traditional. I saw some dancers out there doing the chicken dance. But it is all a part of the constant change and evolution of powwow. What's next a smoke dance song for men's and women's fancy?

Tigerlily 09-16-2002 12:47 PM

oh no - don't say that- LOL

I am a fancy shawl dancer and I had a dream one time that judges called for a third song and it was a smoke dance. Maybe I should say it was a nightmare because I didn't know how to do it in my dream and I don't know how to do it now. I told my mom about it and she said I guess you better learn because you never know WHAT they are going to do nowadays! we laughed good about that one!

ok- back to duck and dive

Crowboi 09-16-2002 05:56 PM

So let me get this straight. You say people be claimin the duck and dive? Ahh man...thats a hoot!!! I aint never EVER seen it done anywhere else but CROW UNTIL lately!!! I seen it done at tribes with the golden age mens northern traditional and White Lodge being at Crow Fair all the time sang it like the crowz! Good job boyz! But anyway, let me ask this then!! If a certain song for a certain category is wrong then should there be someone to blame, i.e., arena director, committee, MC, or the drum? I mean cmon, you people talk about how traditional you are en shyt, if you cant even determine the proper song for the proper category then why heck are yall even speakin...over here at Crow we dance strictly to straight songs, crow hop(original), duck and dive and the stomp song, for women its straight, crow hop, and maybe sometimes a round dance.......I aint puttin no tribe down or nuttin like that but its just that it bothers the heck out of me that peepz be all talkin and aint got no papers to back dat a$$ up!!!!...lol! Anyway, next time you attend your local powwow, go up to one of the head staff and maybe put in your opinion. Maybe they just dont know!!! And oh yea, maybe yall should learn more about your history from an in-depth perspective rather than other people as-a-matter-of-fact opinions!!!!!! Laterz and peace out, see yall at Denver March!!!!!


madashell:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :D :Mad :Mad

Crowboi 09-16-2002 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kneegrow_native
[B]I didn't start this to argue over what tribe made the first duck and dive. More than a few tribes have laid claim to creating the dance. However the song that is predominately used where I live has it's origins from a particular battle. I was expressing my opinion about the correct use of the style.

I have asked people about the origins of these songs. Whether it be from Crow country or any other place the reply has been the same. The song depicts battle. What does the chicken dance depict?

So are we to throw tradition to the wind?

I got an idea, lets start making women's traditional get down on a knee and to a sneak up. Or better yet, lets really throw tradition out the door and permit drugs and alcohol on the arena. Damn, homie, I thought ya knew.

Ya know CrowBoi, at the pow-wow whether it be for money or not, there are still customs that we follow. Money isn't a good enough reason to throw traditions out the window. Is that something that you are prepared to do? Sounds like it.

Some of these dances were made for a specific reason for specific dances. When you use them for the wrong reason you run the risk of getting yourself embarrassed at a pow-wow.


shhoooooot im more probably more traditional than you are because you sure sound like an urban native. All urban natives sound the same, acting all traditional when you dont even practice the traditions that you supposed to learn. I grew up with my family on the Crow Rez, I aint ever live outside my rez and its a whole lot easier for me to learn my ways, from my father(who deceased), to my brothers, and from my uncles and grandfathers, so who are you to say im not traditional? I mean cmon man! look at the powwow, its a MIXTURE of tribes relating together as one by dancing the same styles together for enjoyment and for happiness. I see a crow, i see a blackfeet, i see a sioux, i see a northern cheyenne, i see an arikara, and so on and so forth at a powwow dancing the same style of dance and all for that feeling of being together and having a good time!!! Ill never throw my tradition away for anything in the world because it is where I get my freedom of an inidividual!! Well anyway, I feel sorry for you since you may never learn or learn from other peepz opinions. I SAY at powwows, let the chicken dancers dance the duck and dive. Let the crow style dancers dance the chicken song and let the grass dancers dance a crow hop(foot slide as some claim). Well im outty so if you need to post some more opinions on my opinion, feel free to do so. Later nativez and maybe the powwow force be with you!!!


no stoppin this crow hoppin!!!!




Crowboi 09-16-2002 06:14 PM

meanwhile, back in the bat cave


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