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Old 03-26-2003, 12:42 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sweet Syilx
Mato, first of all, let me clarify, I did not learn everything I know about the Native American Church from a book! I read that book to give me insight on the legal battles the Church has faced in America because I am a law student. For the average person who is curious about the Church, it is a good starting point. Second of all, dont dare presume I dont have the right to talk about the Church my family belongs to. Who are you to tell me what I may speak of or not. I have not said anything untoward about the Church or the teachings of the Church itself. I suggest you think twice before you censor people. Remember, this is a thread open for discussion. People are curious and I merely suggested for those who do not have access to learn about it from a member first hand, they can at least start somewhere by picking up a book. Sheesh.

R.
What I said wasn't adressed to you! I don't know where you got that one at.. if you read the post to wakalapi I said the person deleted their posts and I quoted what they said... not you.. maybe you want to go and re read what I posted. Also, I never said a person cannot learn from a book.. what I said was
Quote:
And just as with any religion ... you cannot learn all that is needed to know from books
Hope that clears it up for you.;)
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Old 03-26-2003, 03:27 PM   #22
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Quote:
And just as with any religion ... you cannot learn all that is needed to know from books.
Well, technically :Chatter there is an exception. You are supposed to be able to learn everything there is to know about Christianity from the Bible, everything there is to know about Islam from the Q'uran, and everything that is really essential about Judaism from the Torah (Rabbi Hillel, O.B.M. said "...the rest is commentary...."). Of course, this is partly why Western culture has the prove-it-in-writing mentality and largely does not recognize NDN religions as truly being "religions", because we have our Elders' oral teachings instead of a monolithic, sacred text to whip out and prove every point we need to make.

I don't know why I threw that in, just had the urge.
:devil :devil :devil :devil :devil :devil
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Old 03-26-2003, 05:08 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wakalapi
Well, technically :Chatter there is an exception. You are supposed to be able to learn everything there is to know about Christianity from the Bible, everything there is to know about Islam from the Q'uran, and everything that is really essential about Judaism from the Torah (Rabbi Hillel, O.B.M. said "...the rest is commentary...."). Of course, this is partly why Western culture has the prove-it-in-writing mentality and largely does not recognize NDN religions as truly being "religions", because we have our Elders' oral teachings instead of a monolithic, sacred text to whip out and prove every point we need to make.
Didn't learn everything I needed to know from the bible.. etc & etc, and "technically" as our elders tell us we keep learning out whole lives so.... Don't think it is that cut and dried.. I don't have that "westen" mentallity :devil :Tongue

Seriously, I learned some sound wisdom but needed to learn how to put these things into practice... that doesn't come from a book but experience..

Quote:
I don't know why I threw that in, just had the urge.
:devil :devil :devil :devil :devil :devil
I know why.. :taunting:

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Old 03-26-2003, 08:12 PM   #24
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Just to be controversial in my severe boredom...

Quote:
Originally posted by Mato Winyan
Didn't learn everything I needed to know from the bible.. etc & etc, and "technically" as our elders tell us we keep learning out whole lives so.... Don't think it is that cut and dried.. I don't have that "westen" mentallity :devil :Tongue
With Christianity, it is that cut and dried. In their mindset, an absolute authority is required. Pastor's teachings are nothing unless it can be proven from the Bible. Unlike when our Elders speak, and we can trust that it comes from experience. No need to prove it. And technically you are way off to have chocolate and vanilla swirl when chocolate marble with raspberry topping is far superior (trust me on this)...

OK ==>> back to the topic at hand..

Here is some (hopefully useful) information on the Native America Church, their contact list. These are the folks to ask if there are questions about them:

http://www.utah-nac.org/nac_index.html
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Old 03-26-2003, 08:16 PM   #25
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What about My religion? Nobody ever listens to Me anymore.
*kicks dirt* :Cry :Cry
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Old 03-26-2003, 08:26 PM   #26
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where is this topic going????
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Old 03-26-2003, 10:42 PM   #27
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Originally posted by Allah
What about My religion? Nobody ever listens to Me anymore.
*kicks dirt* :Cry :Cry
I am sorry my diety brother that you feel this way. It makes me saddended in my heart chakra. We cannot serve others when we have our egos set before us as brillantly as the sunset on Mount Fuji.


And always remember my charmed one, for one to listen, there must be something said that needs to be heard. :flowers:
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Old 03-26-2003, 11:32 PM   #28
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Old 03-27-2003, 12:56 AM   #29
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Originally posted by Lord Krishna
I am sorry my diety brother that you feel this way. It makes me saddended in my heart chakra. We cannot serve others when we have our egos set before us as brillantly as the sunset on Mount Fuji.
Ah, My dear friend thank You for helping Me to keep things in perspective.

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And always remember my charmed one, for one to listen, there must be something said that needs to be heard. :flowers:
Details, details, details.... *sigh*
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Old 03-27-2003, 01:48 AM   #30
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I have attended NAC ceremonies since I was five years old. I have alot respect for grandfather peyote, the church and its teachings. The Commanche leader Quanah Parker brought the teachings of NAC to the Ute people as he was good friends with the Ute Leader Buckskin Charlie. ( peace was made B/W the tribes).

It is not my place to inform you all about the NAC, if you are to know then it will come to you in someway. But I will say that it is a very powerful ceremony and way of life that you commit too.
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Old 03-27-2003, 03:34 AM   #31
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Re: Just to be controversial in my severe boredom...

Quote:
Originally posted by Wakalapi
With Christianity, it is that cut and dried. In their mindset, an absolute authority is required. Pastor's teachings are nothing unless it can be proven from the Bible.
Well this is only half true. Yes, unless it can be found in the bible it means nothing...for the most part. But the Bible is still taught to the masses by the interpreter. Nothing in it is that cut and dried. They have study groups in churches to talk about what is in the bible and how best to determine what the message is truly saying. Also if it was that cut and dried..there would'nt be so many different factions of christianity that follow the same bible now would there? It would be one big church of the take it literally...not Catholism, Pentecostal, Baptist, Lutheran, etc...etc...
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Old 03-27-2003, 03:56 AM   #32
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Re: Just to be controversial in my severe boredom...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wakalapi
And technically you are way off to have chocolate and vanilla swirl when chocolate marble with raspberry topping is far superior (trust me on this)...

So then what you are saying ??....let me get this right...your ice cream or your manner in which you eat it is far superior to the way in which I eat it??:Thinking

Trust you?? TRUST YOU???? You eat flowers for pete sakes...how can I trust THAT???

:taunting::Chatter :p :Tongue
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Old 03-27-2003, 03:09 PM   #33
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Oh yes ... chocolate raspberry is far superior but the manner in which you eat it matters not, as long as you use a spoon that is least 50% steel, manufactured on a Saturday afternoon, with scrolly things on the handle. Your spoon may use a fluted shank as long as you play flute music while you have your Second help you by dishing up the ice cream and administer the raspberries.

FLOWERS ARE GOOD FOR YOU!
*offers a nasturtium salad with cucumber dressing*
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Old 03-27-2003, 03:27 PM   #34
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Re: Re: Just to be controversial in my severe boredom...

Quote:
Originally posted by Blackbear
Well this is only half true. Yes, unless it can be found in the bible it means nothing...for the most part. But the Bible is still taught to the masses by the interpreter. Nothing in it is that cut and dried. They have study groups in churches to talk about what is in the bible and how best to determine what the message is truly saying. Also if it was that cut and dried..there would'nt be so many different factions of christianity that follow the same bible now would there? It would be one big church of the take it literally...not Catholism, Pentecostal, Baptist, Lutheran, etc...etc...
This is precisely Christianity's problem, not in theology but in practical application. The Bible was not intended to be taught to the masses by an interpreter, but that is how the Roman "Catholic" Church fought for control over its subjects for centuries and even forbid laymen from even reading the Bible for themselves. The Bible, in its own words, was meant for an ordinary person to read, understand and follow with only a divine person called the Holy Spirit as a teacher. But with translation after translation after translation, and church after church "injecting" their predetermined beliefs into each translation, it is mankind that has made this impossible. The Bible then throws out cute little phrases like "with God all things are possible" just to try some cheap argument-winners, but a sacred scripture under the protection of an interactive God wanting it to remain perfect would never have been changed. According to the Bible, God took the life of anyone who touched the Ark of the Covenant. Apparently, the exact wording and teachings of the Bible is not as important. So the result, in practical application, is competing clergy who use the one particular set of "scriptures" as a wrench to control society. They do not teach Christianity, rather they distract their followers from it. So be it.

Thank goodness we have groups like the Native American Church, the Indian Shaker Church, and old-style traditionalists who still see faith for what it is.
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Old 03-27-2003, 11:52 PM   #35
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thanks for your comments

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Old 03-28-2003, 12:16 AM   #36
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:rofl2:

Good Un'!!!! :clap:
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Old 03-28-2003, 03:36 AM   #37
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Hmm..so what you are saying is basically...the message ok...the messanger not ok? LOL I'm too tired to think of a response tonight..but if you are bored with it all..then I probably should'nt even bother huh? LOL
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Old 03-28-2003, 08:08 PM   #38
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Yeah and we're just takin' up room so people with relevant posts can't squeeze in anyways. Ayeee...

Sorry people!

OOPS ==>> I mean: Sorry , (COMMA) people!
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Old 04-01-2003, 09:18 PM   #39
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hey tsint????why is the native american church a contradiction???
My Brother always says that our ancestors didn't belive in the "white man's God" niether does he ..... so having a "Native American Church" seems to him to be a contridiction in terms ....

his opinion, not mine .... (I don't know enough about that particular religion/church to form an opinion other than to each his own, don't force me to believe your way, I won't force you to believe mine ....)
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INDIAN, AMERICAN INDIAN OR NATIVE? bluewolf Archives 32 07-03-2000 04:07 PM

    

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