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Old 09-25-2002, 10:30 AM   #41
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Now would that be recycled paper and soy ink? And is the crystal included? :p
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Old 09-25-2002, 10:46 AM   #42
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Well who is your wife man? Tell us? COme on Cleetis, Come one!!!!! TELL ME TELL ME TELL ME TELL ME TELL ME TELL ME!!!!!!

Why not? Huh? huh? why not? How come you won't tell?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA.....Whoooo Damn that was winded. I got a head rush.

STICK BALL MAN. Lets settle it in Stick Ball!!! That is the Proper Traditional Way of the Cherokee!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.....Well it is. No weapons? A ball stick isn't a weapon Singerdad......WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!?!

Any Chanllengers?
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Old 09-25-2002, 11:31 AM   #43
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okay then explain to me how
three groups of people,
one in the north of GA (of course cherokees) one in the middle of the state (get this Creeks)
adn then one almost to the border of FLA (Cherokee again)

read again,
yes these groups may have been together for a few years, great, what education or cultural activities besides getting money and saying so and so was a chief of the tribe, makes them a tribe????

they were state recognized by tacking a bill to recognize them to a bill that was already passed......?
so that makes them state recognized, which means other school systems in GA now have to cut their money for education to go to schools where these yahoos enroll their kids, then money for hud or housing assitance now goes to these yahoos....
so they are taking away from others now that they are recognized.
not saying some of these people do not have indian blood, jsut saying their blood is extremly low?

And Now if you are saying my family is a sellout for staying in the mountains saying they are cherokee and staying on their homeland, ytou are wrong , you have no idea what my great grandfather went through, you never even asked him,and no you can't b/c he has passed away,
it is not our problem, that your family in the years gone by, married outside of the tribe and increased your family's chances to stay on property adn claim white heritage, deal with it, it is your family.
I know my heritage, i know where my blood comes from, great research your family, learn who you are, but don't whine about, my ggg gma denied her heritage, that was then
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Old 09-25-2002, 12:24 PM   #44
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deltadawn Im cheyenne and can get anything I want bc I am federally recognized.

I wish you people would actually read before making remarks from obviously reading only half a sentence of what I said.

My family didnt marry outside of any tribe I dont know where in the hell anyone got that from.

I said the ones that went to oklahoma were sellouts.
not the ones in the mountains.

man you people cant read....
besides I was being an *** bc most of you deserve it.

half the federal cherokee nation doesnt have enough "ndn" blood in their veins to fill up a teaspoon and yet these federals are criticizing others who in many circumstances have a great deal more ndn blood. I think thats pretty damn funny.

So I got ignorant with alot of you bc your showing how ignorant your really are.
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Old 09-25-2002, 12:43 PM   #45
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Well, Gache, I think we're arguing oranges and apples again here. I never said federally recognized Indians were better than state recognized Indians. They may be all fine people as human beings and I'm not questioning their blood quantum either. My contention is merely that by seeking state recognition, they are hurting other tribes. As POLITICAL entities - which is what tribes are first and foremost - they should be more responsible. They should look for other ways to establish recognition (preferably by going to the other Cherokee tribes themselves!) before going to the state. Going to the state undermines any type of sovereignty we have and makes it harder for tribes to deal with arrogant states (South Dakota is a prime example; Jacques can tell you all the horror stories!).

As far as sovereignty goes, we've gone there before too and agreed to disagree. It's true that we don't have sovereignty in the same sense that the U.S. or a foreign nation has sovereignty BUT I don't believe that means that we aren't sovereign at all. It merely means that we have a UNIQUE type of sovereignty manifested in our shared history; we can't even compare it to any other place because nobody has the shared history Indian Nations and the U.S. have.

As far as sell-outs, I think we'll again have to agree to disagree. There are obviously two different perspectives and which you adhere to will depend on what your own ancestors did. Obviously, I believe that because mine stuck to their guns and put up with a lot of persecution in order to keep their own beliefs and live their lives as Indians, they are definitely not sell-outs. However, I can see why someone who comes from the other perspective would think the same about their own (even though I don't agree :devil ). So...nothing we can do there but agree to disagree.
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Old 09-25-2002, 12:49 PM   #46
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I just want to know one thing. What about other state recognized tribes besided Cherokees that are seeking or have sought state recoginition. What do you think of them? Same ?different? Less bitter because they don't try to say they are Cherokees in any way? Same bitterness?
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Old 09-25-2002, 01:33 PM   #47
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"They should look for other ways to establish recognition (preferably by going to the other Cherokee tribes themselves!) before going to the state. "

Ok now lets suppose for just a minute, that there are no records, except by word of mouth? No birth certificates, and no family bibles? How then do some of these Cherokee's, or other natives PROVE that they are indeed Native, simply because of family history passed down by word of mouth? There are many area's right here in the good ol' USA, that have many illiterate people! They can not read or write, and neither could their parents, all they have are the word of mouth stories! Right in Arkansas, and even in Tennessee, and North Carolina, as well as Georgia, there are still Cherokee, are you aware that part of the war against Cherokee was because they were one of the LARGEST Tribes in the US? I did not say the largest, but one of! The white man was afraid, and the Cherokee were by rights afraid of the white man!

You say they can ask to join a Federally recognised Tribe, but they can't because unless an ancestor is on some roll, they are not welcome! There are more Cherokee existed then, and even now than were ever on ANY roll! Yes I happen to be enrolled, and all the glory, but I also have relatives, with even more blood quantom than I do who are not, can cannot be because thier ancestor was not enrolled! Does this make them any less Cherokee? I don't think so!

There is a thread about Unity, I think this argument is a good example of that, and why there will never be any unity, too many people assume with out those cards, you are not worth the effort to look at. Without that Federal recognition, you are nothing, and never will be! I'm sorry but I think this thought is way too arrogant! There will come a day, when all, yes ALL of the Natives of this land will stand up to be counted, and the Federally Recognized Tribes will be embarressed by their size! It is too egotisical to even begin to think we are the only ones who have the right to call ourselves, the only RIGHT NDN's.

Whether they are Cherokee or otherwise! We just happen to be one of the most outspoken Tribes is all.
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Old 09-25-2002, 01:40 PM   #48
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Well my ancestors journeys(the northern cheyenne) are generally well known.

I see your points lngfthr and though I don't completely agree with them I think they are logical and well thought out.

I know there are fake tribes out there heck every skin has met at least 100 of them. Those make me sick.

My biggest issue is nations like haliwa-saponi, lumbee, chickahominy, pequot, penobscot, abenaki, other va tribes and so on who many of these people are obvious skins and yet have no recourse but state recognition. I know the pequot for example have been successful in achieving federal recognition however some like the chickahominy who I have been with many times and have many dark skinned "ndn look" folks are getting screwed by the government(what's new) . They arent blue eyed blond haired wannabees trying to make a tribe to get moneys....

We should treat them no less of a skin as any other federals,
Folks everyone of our ancestors went thru miserable times trying to survive anyway they can. I said what I said bc I saw so much criticism of non-federals that I took it the other way to the extreme so many of you would realize how horrible you sounded to the non-federals.
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Old 09-25-2002, 01:49 PM   #49
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its all about money, the federal indians dont want to let go of their 3rd rate health care, 25th rate housing, stone age education, and 1800's commodities bc they grew dependent on it.
Now the ones who got money from businesses started by their nation dont want to share it bc they became white.

That is the reason my cards were thrown in the yellowstone river 8 years ago. I wont participate in the BS. I won't enroll my son or daughter bc its all BS.
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Old 09-25-2002, 02:08 PM   #50
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I do not care what color someone skin looks like, it depends on your approach to the whole thing. There are people out there whose first words are ,my ggggma was........
it is never I AM......(pick a tribe).
I am Cherokee/catawba, not enrolled with catawbas though but close enough blood to be so.

now I also have english, scot/irish and german blood, but i am not running up to the first cottney speaking person saying my gggpa was from yorkshire and try to talk with an english accent.....
I am who i am, and no one can tell me different,

my point is that people shoudl be happy with who they are and where their blood comes from, don't give me the song and dance about my ggggma was full blood and she decided that we were white so we wouldn't get kicked off our land.
so when someone(Not you gache) this is in general terms, never pointed words at anyone on here...
says they are native, good,:) but when they start off saying so and so in our family has native blood..... same story heard before.
and that makes them native, okay, so are you then denying your other blood?????

either people know who they are and where they came from or they don't, just b/c my fmaily enrolled theirselves adn us kids, not my fault, they did it not me, i enrolled my kids to keep our blood lines intact, and yes my sons have more blood than I do
I am proud of my native heritage , just as proud of my european side too, that is who I am
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Old 09-25-2002, 03:41 PM   #51
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I think we are saying the same thing using different words.

I totally agree with what your saying. My issue is with legitimate indian communities in this country that are out there like the chickahominy that are not accepted and often ridiculed by other federals for not legitimate.

Im also kinda tired of the rolls. There was an accepted application on the western cherokee with 1/4096 blood line. Yet that person gets to go to a person who is 1/2 who is not enrolled and say your not enrolled so your not an indian... That to me is a big fat joke...

I mean there either is a place for those people or there isnt.

anyway were talking about things like this while hardly anyone speaks their language anymore or is even half aware of their culture bc their too busy snagging someone at a 49 and getting drunk.
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Old 09-25-2002, 03:55 PM   #52
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yes sounds like it

but like you said it is no one's place to say someone is not native b/c they are not on a roll somewhere....

they may be full blood and just don't care about enrollment

the trouble with state recognized tribes , is the yahoos that exploit native culture not all of the state tribes exploit the culture but help to bring it to attention of others, which is great, but the exploiters are the ones giving others a bad rap.....

I'm glad to see people able to come together untied as a tribe of sorts and work things out, but there is way to much bickering about who is and who isn't native

like said before, either you are or you aren't... no two ways around it
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Old 09-25-2002, 04:39 PM   #53
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There are Metis in the states now,there are some with sites on the web. I was asked to join, I don't know if they call it a tribe or what. All I had to do to do this was tell them I was of "mixed decent" and give them $25 dollars. I asked what would be the reason why people would want to join, which some have, and was told that I would get a card then, and I could hold that card in addition to any others. I asked what benefit that would be to have it and what I came away with was, I would get a card with my name on it, that cost $25.
uh, yeah, so what's your point here? that there's as many fake metis groups as there are fake cherokee groups? The actual Metis are a genuine people with a genuine culture and heritage. Maybe it's one of these fake groups that has confused people like Ayita.
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Old 09-25-2002, 04:40 PM   #54
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How then do some of these Cherokee's, or other natives PROVE that they are indeed Native...?
Quote:
many of these people are obvious skins and yet have no recourse but state recognition.
The issue here as I see it is that these tribes want to be "recognized" as Native. My only point was that they are looking for recognition in the WRONG place (the states). But, somehow, y'all read that federally recognized tribes think we're better than others in that...? I've argued many times before that I believe an Indian person is one who is culturally Indian (kinda like Tooter and deltadawn have been saying). So I agree that a "card" isn't any indication of how Native someone is. But I thought the point of this thread was state recognition and all that entails.

I'll admit, I'm not that familiar with these tribes' quests to be recognized. Maybe it is all just a political conspiracy by the BIA against them. I don't know. But I wonder why then - if these tribes don't want benefits and don't care about cards and all that - do they seek recognition at all? Why not just organize themselves into a tribe and live that way? Why go to the states and hurt other tribes in the process? Or, as I've been saying, why not go to the other tribes themselves and seek recognition?

There has to be a better way than going to the states.
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Old 09-25-2002, 04:42 PM   #55
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Cool

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penobscot... who many of these people are obvious skins and yet have no recourse but state recognition
The Penobscot are federally recognized (along with the Passamaquoddy, the only other federally recognized tribe in Maine). They are also the only tribes that I am aware of who have had representatives included in the Maine state legislature since the formation of that state.

I know that was just a simple error on your part, Gache, and you weren't trying to tick me off there! :D
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Old 09-25-2002, 04:48 PM   #56
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Red face Speaking of UNITY....

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I'm glad to see people able to come together untied as a tribe of sorts
Bad spellers of the world, UNTIE!

:Chatter

I'm kidding, deltadawn! Just thought I'd take advantage of your typo to inject a little levity here. Hehehehee.....
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Old 09-25-2002, 04:50 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by zeph


uh, yeah, so what's your point here? that there's as many fake metis groups as there are fake cherokee groups? The actual Metis are a genuine people with a genuine culture and heritage. Maybe it's one of these fake groups that has confused people like Ayita.
:Thumbs EGG~Zactlly!!! ;) :p
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Old 09-25-2002, 06:23 PM   #58
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I attended a hearing in the House Resources Cmte today (for another issue) and had a chance to hear comments on both the bill to slow down the process on federal recognition and the bill to grant federal recognition to the 6 VA tribes. In fact I am missing their reception now bc of work.

The members of the Cmte who were present were supportive of federal recog for the VA tribes and there were several tribal members there- at least 15- 20. I did not get a chance to hear the tribal testimony , but 2 congressmembers testifed on their behalf in the beginning. The only opposing testimony came from the BIA- go figure.

just an FYI
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Old 09-25-2002, 07:52 PM   #59
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by lngfthr


The issue here as I see it is that these tribes want to be "recognized" as Native. My only point was that they are looking for recognition in the WRONG place (the states). But, somehow, y'all read that federally recognized tribes think we're better than others in that...? I've argued many times before that I believe an Indian person is one who is culturally Indian (kinda like Tooter and deltadawn have been saying). So I agree that a "card" isn't any indication of how Native someone is. But I thought the point of this thread was state recognition and all that entails.

I'll admit, I'm not that familiar with these tribes' quests to be recognized. Maybe it is all just a political conspiracy by the BIA against them. I don't know. But I wonder why then - if these tribes don't want benefits and don't care about cards and all that - do they seek recognition at all? Why not just organize themselves into a tribe and live that way? Why go to the states and hurt other tribes in the process? Or, as I've been saying, why not go to the other tribes themselves and seek recognition?

There has to be a better way than going to the states.
[/QUOTE

My tribe is state recognized and has been for over a hundred years (nothing personal. but even before the EBCI) We have always been Indian people and never denied it even when it was unpopular to be Indian. In fact there were members of my tribe that went to Carlyle Indian school with everyone else.

We cannot go to other tribes and ask to be recognized by them (except for those individuals here with Tuscarora blood) because we are not a part of any other tribe we are our own people.
Our quest for federal recognition is with the United States Government.

In recent years we have managed to create a constitution, Supreme court, and a tribal coucil elected by enrolled members as in, not dues paying club members, but actual Indian people who's geneology goes back directly to the tribes base rolls (which date back to the 1800's). We are just as organized and Indian as any federally recognized tribe. It is just that we don't hold the same government to government relationship, of wich we should be intitled to. We could use the federal money that other tribes get justas much as they do, the people here need education and could use better housing just as much as everyone else.

The money is a nice perk, but that is not the key factor in why we should be recognized. We are Indian people Americas first people. A large majority of which are three quarters native or more. We were robbed, abused, murdered, and oppressed the same as everyone else. The United States owe's us compensation for what they have done and it is only right that we recieve it. We are a nation and it is only right that we be addressed as such. Personally I pay my own bills I could care less about a free check. What bothers me is people like some of you on here who act like you are better than me because I don't have a BIA card. My main desire for having a BIA card would be so I don't get stereotyped as a wannabe and have my people be insulted and called some sort of hobbyist club. I enjoy socializing with and befriending my native brothers and sisters, but sometimes it's hard because I don't have the super Indian card.

Anyone of you who accepts your casino checks, stays on the rolls, and brag about how good it is to be federally recognized have no right to say anything to other Indian people who are entitled to the same thing. If you are enrolled federally than obviously you don't think there is anything wrong with it so how can you say it is wrong for us to do the same thing that you are doing. I can understand where the anger comes from when it comes to wannabees, but we are not wannabees. Just because someone got screwed by the government a little more than you doesn't make them wannabees. I've been to Qualla and seen many of the natives there with very strong blood, but on the same note I have seen many with blond hair and blue eyes as well. My eyes are brown, My hair is brown, when you look at me you see an Indian. I have ten times the blood as some of those BIA card carrying individuals that I met up there. There is no way in hell that they are a better Indian than me.
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Old 09-25-2002, 10:11 PM   #60
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Take a bow Lumbeedancer!:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Well said, I could not have said it better!
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