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Old 10-15-2001, 01:53 AM   #21
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Yes, My name is Theresa and my friend's name is Kelly. We use the same computer (as we live in the same house). No Fakes Here.
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Old 10-15-2001, 03:17 AM   #22
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Good posting once again Riverwind... you said what I wanted to say only clearer and more understandable. Thanks!
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Old 10-15-2001, 05:07 AM   #23
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:D
I saw the movie SQUANTO !!! But the closing scene of the movie was the gathering to feast, as always !!! Thank you Thank you Thank you Riverwind!
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Old 10-15-2001, 06:33 PM   #24
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To Kelly:

Trying to explain things to someone like you is a waste of energy and good typing space.......well-spoken ignorance is the scariest because it fools the ignorant one into believing that she is intelligent.

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Old 10-17-2001, 01:11 PM   #25
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What I see in Kelly's essay is not so much ignorance as defensiveness. As a newspaper columnist, I've dealt with comments such as this for many, many years. Kelly represents that part of the white population who is just as much a victim of the harsh past as the Native people.

The people who admonish others to forget the past are those who cannot deal with the guilt of the past. They have not been allowed to heal, just as the people who were the victims of the past have not been allowed to heal. Another columnist, Leonard Pitts, Jr. (who is African American), wrote a pretty good essay on just this thing. Here's a short section:

Stop talking history, they say. Don't bring up my father's sins. Concentrate instead on all the things that are wrong in your community here and now.

As if those pathologies had come from nowhere, appeared fully formed one sudden day, had not earthly connection to eight generations of slavery and three more of Jim Crow.


Something Kelly - and others who may share her ideas - may want to think about is that the present IS the past. I didn't sign away my ancestor's land but I must live with the consequences of their actions. So must white people.

Telling the true story of Thanksgiving is not about blaming white people. It is about letting all of America grieve together for our tragic past. Would we tell the people who lost loved ones in the World Trade Center to "get over it"?! it's in the past?! pull yourselves up by your bootstraps?! No, we fly in psychologists from all over the U.S. to help them deal with the trauma and the grief. When were Indian people allowed to deal with the trauma and the grief?? Where were the psychologists?? All we got was people telling us to forget it and move on. How helpful is that?

Kelly has to do as much healing as anyone else. She has to realize that nobody is blaming her for the past just by telling a truth. She has to realize that a confession is far more cleansing to a soul than harboring a lie and masking it with contempt. And she must realize that only through healing our past can we move toward a better future.
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Old 10-17-2001, 01:27 PM   #26
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Lngfthr,

Very well said! Thank you.
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Old 10-17-2001, 03:24 PM   #27
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Dang lngftr, whatta reply!Awesome:) :) :)
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Old 10-17-2001, 10:18 PM   #28
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Kelly, here. NOT Theresa, and not some inciter.

I too thank the newspaper columnist who expressed my feelings so much better than I, and made me think so much deeper than I allowed myself to before. Clearly I am not THAT intelligent. But I am as tired of my people being blamed as you are of yours being told to shut up about it. I am saddened to know there is still such madness going on- Black Mesa, Micmac, experimental drugs, etc.

When I wrote of whites being the elite of the day, I didn't do so believing it was right or good. It simply seems to be the case. Whether by chance or merit, white people's culture is the predominant in this country. White government rules. Like Rome's empire and Egypt's, and all "great" societies throughout history, it came at a high cost not only to your people, but to others of many races and to our own.

You don't seek retribution. What do you seek? What can help your wounds heal? What can I do to help that happen? Some people read my post and saw me as some white jerk who had no compassion for the Indian people. That is not true. I did go off on tangents in a few places, as did Riverwind when he suggested I live in Disneyland. Emotions spark many misunderstandings, and not so well thought out words, as do conversations that take place from behind a computer screen where people's eyes and body postures and all the things that make communication complete are missing.

I have to go to a live chat now, but I will come back under my own sign in if possible, or always identify myself under Tee's name if not.

More than anything I do not want anger and misunderstanding to flourish. So I apologize if my previous words were taken harshly. They were not meant as such.

-Kelly
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Old 10-18-2001, 04:42 AM   #29
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Thumbs up The True Origin of Thanksgiving

Great research paper. Being brought up in the non-native world, I didn't get to hear the true history of our country.
I figure even if you did get a lot of negative feedback around campus -they read it.
I was told a small part of the true history last year around this same time. Yes it disappointed me to know the truth, yes it took the fun out of Thanksgiving, but that's okay because now I know the truth. This year I will be going to see my children and grandchildren up North at Thanksgiving time. And yes I will be eating turkey and dressing and adding many more pounds to my butt. BUT this year (with your permission) I will also have your research paper with me. This year my children, my grandchildren, my mother, my sister and all of her children will know the true origin of Thanksgiving. Thank you for sharing it. God Bless You

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Old 10-18-2001, 11:04 AM   #30
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I commend you lngfthr for your patience and your well-written post. Unfortunately, I posted at a time when I had run out of patience. Since I work in an education-related field, and since my university days are not very far behind me, I had all I could take of replies like Kelly's a long time ago. It's the same thing over and over, and if the ones who do this would only stop and think about what they are saying then maybe we would all be better off. Sometimes it's not just about being uniformed, or needing to heal, some people just do not think very deeply about things, and no matter what their intentions are, they come off sounding ignorant and insensitive, and most times disrespectful. I remember one girl in one of my ethics classes went off in a class about how terrible the men were that got drafted and sent to Vietnam....she said they didn't have to go do all the things they did and kill innocent people, that they had a choice. There happened to be a wife of a disabled Vietnam Vet in that class who really took offense to that, and when she said her piece to that girl, the girl's response was, "Well no one put a gun to their head and told them they had to go!" This is the same girl who went off just like Kelly did about the same subject......I automatically associate people who say the same things that Kelly did with this girl, and the countless others like her, who use the same tired old arguments, don't think before they speak, offend alot of people and then come back and say they were uniformed and that their emotions got the better of them. That is my own personal hang-up, but it keeps being reinforced when I read drivel like what Kelly wrote.

What kills me is that we, as Indian people, are always expected to keep quiet about our history with the US....we are labeled as whiners or whatever when we try to correct inaccuracies in how history is portrayed....it's like the truth doesn't matter because people just don't want to think about anything anymore unless it is positive and "makes them feel good." The Holocaust is studied at length in alot of history classes, all the atrocities are documented in great detail, but the ONLY reason they are studied like they are is because someone else besides the US committed all these atrocities. Many of the same things that were done to Jewish people were done to Indians here, but no one wants to talk about them or document them because they say it doesn't matter now because that happened in the past.

Sorry this was off the subject slightly, but I needed to give some background on why I feel the way I do. Hopefully I can re-read lngfthr's post and re-learn patience. I'm glad you said what you did lngfthr.....very thoughtful.

Two-cents

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Old 10-18-2001, 11:06 AM   #31
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Cool

What I want to know is do we have any avatar's with a white pointy hood because we got some people that could use it.

That would just be my humble opinion......
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Old 10-18-2001, 12:30 PM   #32
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"Kelly" speaking:

OK, Here's my response to that: (Change pronouns as needed)

First of all, his reference to the Sept. 11th tragedy is not relevant. That incident is different mainly because it's current. It's not what was done too many years ago for anyone to actually remember like the original Thanksgiving. Also, nothing has even been attempted as restitution yet from those guilty for the 9-11 events; nothing has been given to repay the damage: no manner of compensation, no special hunting privileges, no free homes or land (however low-valued or restricted), no casinos erected there to allow the victims to work their way out of the financial stress they will be in due to this event (forgive me for that last one, I just had to throw it in). None of this has occurred yet (or possibly will ever).

Next, no psychologists were available at that time to help with the emotional well-being of anyone, Indian or otherwise, neither were they around at the time of white people's own oppression... But here's an example of what I mean by getting over it: the Irish Americans had no one to hold their hand and dry their tears when they were treated almost as badly as the Indians. No, they were not all but wiped out. No, they were not forced to leave their land and live in a manner foreign to them, per se. Were they segregated as poor, white undesirables? Yes. Were they forced to work for grossly insufficient pay (often tricked out of it for being none the wiser), and live in squalor? Yes. Were they abused psychologically and physically? Yes. Did they wallow in it for generation after generation? No. They got over it. They realized the system sucked and they worked through it and within it to ultimately put an Irish Catholic man in the White House. Does anyone deny that Irish people in America were treated badly? No. Did I deny that the Indians were/and in some cases still are treated badly? No. I'm simply saying that those who are still wallowing in it instead of proactively working toward a solution are a big part of the problem. No one forgets the past, but some leave it there. If you make it an excuse for your present and future, you will always be stuck in a holding pattern, crying over spilt milk. Eventually the milk will spoil, harden, crust, flake and leave a stain. Will you have stood there watching it happen, crying, until there became nothing you could do to ever fix it? Because that's where we are in this. Everyone forever stained by spilt milk; no one willing to lay a new floor to fix it.

So, what sort of recompense can I, as a white person, give for the sins of my people? I can shout from the cyber (and actual) hilltops," Whites treated Indians - Blacks, Asians, Hispanics and Middle Easterners - like second class, sub-human beings. Some of my people still do. It was and is wrong. I, as a single representative of these people, am sorry for the sins of our fathers. I do not do what they did. I will not do what they have done. I will continue to teach our children that what was done was and is wrong. As I come to learn more and more of the Indian truths I will teach them along side white truths [and black truths and all other truths]." I have done and still do all these things and mean them with all sincerity, but somehow, it's still just not quite enough, is it? Again, I ask, What could be done to repay you as individuals and as a people for our transgressions? Any ideas?

I put it to you, that when you write your "truths" making an entire race responsible- past present and future -for the indecent acts of INDIVIDUALS, you keep the flow of hatred, distrust and misunderstanding in full force. You label the trangressors "white" as if every single white person on the planet was to blame, then, now and forever. You label the victims "red" as if every single red person (or anyone other than white) on the planet was a victim, then, now and forever.

Yes, I am defensive. I tire of the relentless white bashing that goes on in this country from individuals of every other race in the book, while they take full advantage of all the bounty that white culture has imagined, created and helped to produce. I also hate hearing it done by white individuals speaking of other races. I look at the cycle of one life, my own life, and expand it out a thousand generations. As many generations have had good times, bad times, and all sorts of times in between, as I, individually, have had. But, I do not focus on blaming any one group or circumstance for the cycles of my life. I just take the good with the bad and try to remain focused on my own goals throughout. I have lived in my car and bathed in the sinks of public restrooms. I have owned property, jewels and all the material items I could ever desire. When things were bad, I worked to improve them. When things were good, I enjoyed and was thankful for them. It was what it was; it is what it is. Whatever happened, happened. Whatever happens, happens. Whatever will happen, will happen. But I can not wallow in past "bad times". For instance, I will not hate or blame every person with an English-American name because some of them beat and mercilessly harrassed my grandfather with a German-American name during World War II, as he fought at their side. He does not wallow in the hurt, nor assign blame to the entire body of people who happen to have the same heritage as those who hurt him. Why do so many people do this? of EVERY race?

In my heart I am ashamed of the evil acts of some of my people's ancestors. I am as proud of the decent acts of my people's ancestors. I have never been afraid to admit the worst or the best- in any race. I am not ignorant. I am not even the intelligent-ignorant person I was called. I am simply tired. Tired of all the bullsh*t. You, who live today, were not there when all those horrible things happened to your ancestors. They did not, however, happen to you. God willing, they will not. If you must bring their pain into your life today, use it to caution yourself against all unkindness and indecency, not just that of some whites. Be suspicious of all bad people, not just those particular whites which were bad. And be careful in discerning which are which.

It was said that we all have to live with the consequences of all of our ancestor's actions. But why? Why do we have to give the past any more power than it's already had?

I am grateful to live in a time when there is no (legal) slavery in America, no limited opportunities to become educated, vote, or buy property based solely on race, no lack of information or communication thereof. I will not say that some racial differences in opportunity don't still exist. But I will say that they can be overcome with some thought, planning, flexibility and effort - and most of all, desire to do so.

Had I written the essay that started this all, I would have included some of those sentiments. I would have made it a more thoughtful piece rather than a straight, biased account of events that is based in nothing more than hearsay. And 400 year old hearsay at that. I would not have left it as, "White hurt red. White is bad. Red is to be pitied. White is to be disdained, " because that's how it came across to this white person. I do not doubt that everything in it was possibly true, but I am sick of it being shoved in the world's face so much, so often and so adamantly that no one ever gets past it, white, red, or otherwise.

I realize in re-reading my first post that I was as guilty of race-labeling as the rest of us. I write this in full admission of that knowledge, realizing and believing it was wrong, and I apologize to any I've offended by that first writing.

I hope this post has come across better and more indicative of my original meaning.



Kelly
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Old 10-18-2001, 02:02 PM   #33
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I will probably regret posting this, but here goes.

Another "White" perspective...

After reading, I copied the essay that started this thread, and sent it out to many people that I frequently e-mail. I took it for what it was: facts and figures of several moments in the history of this country, and a worthwhile lesson in what happens when people forego all else in favor of belief. It was very sad to read. Sad to see how a group of Puritans, who believed so deeply in their god that they left England to escape persecution, only to turn around and do exactly what had been done to them when they interacted with the Indians. The Puritans were hypocrites and the Indians suffered for no reason. The essay was truthful, valuable in its effort to debunk mythology, *and* it stuck to pointing the finger where it belonged.

To see this thread descend into the typical blanketing of white vs. red is saddening too. Once again I am stuck seeing both sides of the argument. Riverwind spoke out about the past, and many took it as a blanket statement about all whites! Why? He didn't say all whites did this. I could ask what makes some people jump to the defensive, but I think Lngfthr gave a pretty good answer.

So why do I say I see both sides?

I'm white, and of the German variety. This is my "nature." My family first set foot in the states in the mid 1800's (and strangely, that is when all branches of my family came to the USA). It would seem most were fleeing the persecution of the Baronage in Germany at the time, but I haven't been able to gather much information on that yet. My family had no connection to the first settlers, and maybe that's why I take no offence.

I was also raised as a member of a Comanche family. This is my "nurture," the part that governs my responses and makes me who I am. I know of the hardships that my family faced in their past, and of the issues they face every day. I am always there when they need me because, blood or not, they are my family. I get angry and frustrated, but most of all, knowing their past and seeing what it does to them makes me sad. I can empathize, and I can't hold it against any Indian who harbors resentment for non-indians.

On this board, I have been accused of being closed-minded, being of the whites only perspective, and I've been known to get a bit disgruntled when I, too, am covered under the "all whites are bad blanket." But, hey, life goes on.

It comes down to semantics. You take what you will from comments made on this board. You will continue to argue because no two people will get the same thing from what is written.

All in all, this post is probably pointless, but hey, I'm young. I'm still allowed to be silly and pointless sometimes.

Thanks for reading my blather if you got this far.
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Old 10-18-2001, 02:19 PM   #34
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Hey, twocents1, don't even worry about it. I know exactly where you're coming from. Any given response depends on where we are at that day/time and with the issue in general. Everyone had a good response in that they spoke what they felt.

Kelly, I feel like you do need to think a little harder about the past and how it affects the present. You also need to research a little more about race in America and the dynamics that have created situations that we have today. Learn about grieving and change and study group behavior and you will see that not is all as it seems. There are definite patterns and reasons for behavior far beyond the negative ones you attribute to people of color.

If you are truly interested in learning, I would be happy to help.
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Old 10-18-2001, 03:21 PM   #35
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While I had a few minutes, I wanted to clarify the comments regarding the WTC reference. In fact, the reference is very relevant.

We could all agree that it is a traumatic event and that it has changed us all in some way or another (e.g. made us feel less safe, more hostile toward Muslims/Afghanistan/whatever, reminded us of being American, etc.). In the same way, Native American people went through some very traumatic events repeatedly throughout their lifetime (warfare, boarding schools, termination, land allotment, etc.) and that affected them in various ways.

Now, today, we know that we must deal with trauma and so we send in psychologists from all over the U.S. to help the victims of the WTC disaster deal with the trauma and grieve. Certainly we didn't have modern-day psychologists back then (are you deliberately being obtuse?), but Native American people did have established ways of dealing with grief and trauma (ceremonies, spiritual advisors, community gatherings). Guess what? These ways were banned . So what's the result? Unhealthy coping, resentment, anger, depression and all the rest of that good stuff. In addition, these coping mechanisms affected the children and the grandchildren and on down the line. Don't we all learn how to behave from our families? Even if we don't always understand why we do things, don't we do them anyway (open presents Christmas Day instead of Christmas eve)?

I hope this has clarified. I don't want to go into too much detail because it gets hard to read long posts. Little food for thought at a time is the way to go. I encourage you to really stop and think about it before responding (as opposed to reacting).
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Old 10-18-2001, 03:24 PM   #36
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The past is just the past?

Kelly used the Irish as an example. If the Irish are so forgiving, why is there an Irish Republican Army? Why are there bomblasts in England attributed to the IRA?

Kelly - please explain.
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Old 10-18-2001, 03:57 PM   #37
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I was speaking of the Irish in America and how they were viewed/treated upon arrival. View my comments as they apply to America only.

As to lngfthr's response...don't get me started on psychologists.

Elvis has just left the building - for real. (save your applause till the door actually hits me in the ***, please...)
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Old 10-18-2001, 04:08 PM   #38
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Kiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond repute
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Kelly, please don't cop-out. Using that only in America thing don't work. Everyone has a past. The Irish will never forget their past.
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Old 10-18-2001, 06:38 PM   #39
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Lngfthr:
You are being EXTREMELY unfair to Kelly. (This is Theresa "Tee" by the way). on her long post (above).
You were not listening to what you read in her post, clearly.
Read what is below:

Part of Kelly's Post:
"Next, no psychologists were available at that time to help with the emotional well-being of anyone, Indian or otherwise, neither were they around at the time of white people's own oppression..."

You responded on your (Lngfthr) post with this:
"Now, today, we know that we must deal with trauma and so we send in psychologists from all over the U.S. to help the victims of the WTC disaster deal with the trauma and grieve. Certainly we didn't have modern-day psychologists back then (are you deliberately being obtuse?),"
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Old 10-18-2001, 06:40 PM   #40
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DONTWANNAARGUE, You need to change your name to WANNAARGUE??
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