Register Groups Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Like Tree1Likes

Forum Home - Go Back > PowWows.com Forum Archives > Archives The True Origin Of Thanksgiving The True Origin Of Thanksgiving

LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-18-2001, 07:22 PM   #41
spiritwoman
Guest
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Posts: n/a
Quoting History--Get Your 'facts' straight

Before any of you start using the Irish, Irish-Americans, IRA, etc. as examples or for comparative purposes for God's sake get your history accurate! I appreciate Kelly was trying to make a point, but the statements made are as flawed as DontWannaArgues comment about the IRA. My adopted family are proud Irish-Americans. I researched my Da's genealogy for a number of years and became very familiar with the history and politics surrounding the Irish Diaspora. If we were going to get into a discussion about the Irish and comparing them to anybody it would be to the Palestinians, not Native Americans. So let's not compare apples and oranges.

For starters...
Quote:
No, they were not all but wiped out. No, they were not forced to leave their land and live in a manner foreign to them, per se.
Whether they ended up on convict or coffin ships and transported off to Australia or America, the Irish were, indeed, forced to leave their land and live in a manner they were unaccustomed to..
The Famine can be viewed as a politically-motivated tool wielded by the English Crown to force the predominantly Catholic Ireland into submission and penury. If starvation didn't kill them, the resulting epidemics from the filthy conditions they were forced to live in completed the job begun by the Crown. We aren't talking 'hundreds' of fatalities here, we are talking of 'thousands'.


Quote:
Kelly used the Irish as an example. If the Irish are so forgiving, why is there an Irish Republican Army? Why are there bomblasts in England attributed to the IRA?
This response isn't even germane to Kelly's comments. 'Forgiving'? I don't think that was her point. You move on, you don't necessarily forgive. In Northern Ireland, in places like Armagh and Derry, where cities have been divided like Berlin was in Germany, Catholic and Protestant alike try and survive side by side. Yet, on a daily basis, in these very enclaves, the past has not been forgotten. Neighbors kill neighbors. Children kill children. The latest is a rash of sexual assaults and murders on young Catholic girls--the innocents in this whole mess. The Easter Uprising was this same century, it was the culmination of years of Catholic oppression that gave birth to a number of organizations, including the Irish Republican Army, an underground branch of Sinn Fein. Think PLO and Hezbollah or Hamas... The Irish Republican Army is a symptom of a people exhausted from years of oppression. But it does not represent the people of Ireland and more pertinent to Kelly's comments which DWA is responding to, does not represent Irish-Americans.
I'll climb off my soapbox now. It just gripes me to see history distorted. It's bad enough as it is.
  Share with Facebook
Old 10-18-2001, 08:33 PM   #42
Tiny Tot Dancer
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
lngfthr has a reputation beyond reputelngfthr has a reputation beyond reputelngfthr has a reputation beyond reputelngfthr has a reputation beyond reputelngfthr has a reputation beyond reputelngfthr has a reputation beyond reputelngfthr has a reputation beyond reputelngfthr has a reputation beyond reputelngfthr has a reputation beyond reputelngfthr has a reputation beyond reputelngfthr has a reputation beyond reputelngfthr has a reputation beyond reputelngfthr has a reputation beyond reputelngfthr has a reputation beyond reputelngfthr has a reputation beyond reputelngfthr has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 82
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
What????

Tee and Kelly, what's with the psychologist comments?? They're not even the point!

Obviously, there are some people *ahem* leaving the building who would prefer to continue attributing victim mentalities to people of color while clinging to the concept of a superior white America to actually considering another perspective. Oh, well... win some, lose some.

And I'll tell you the overriding difference between Blacks, American Indians and the Irish. The Irish were WHITE.

That's all I got to say about that....hehehe
__________________
Not better. Not worse. Just different.
lngfthr is offline   Share with Facebook
Old 10-18-2001, 10:18 PM   #43
Pow Wow Girl
 
Tee's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Tee is infamous around these parts
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: California
Posts: 12
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Talking

NOT BETTER.....NOT WORSE.....JUST DIFFERENT !!
:p
Tee is offline   Share with Facebook
Old 10-18-2001, 11:28 PM   #44
CoyoteMama
Guest
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Posts: n/a
"no casinos erected there <b>to allow the victims to work their way out</b> of the financial stress they will be in due to this event" :Shocked

"the Indians were/and in some cases still are <b>treated badly?"</b>
<i>treated badly?</i> :Eyebrows <i>"treated badly" is when a waiter is rude to you at a restaurant. </i>

"As I come to learn more and more of the Indian truths I will teach them along side white truths [and black truths and all other truths]"
<i>teach Indian truths alongside white truths? what does that even mean ?</i> :Thinking <i>Except that other peoples' truth must be somehow qualified and separated from the "white truth"? </i>

"when you write your "truths" making an entire race responsible"
<i>ah, I see, so there's the qualifier again, " " this time, just so you're clear your truth isn't really valid compared to hers</i>

"relentless white bashing that goes on in this country from individuals of every other race in the book, while they take full advantage of all the bounty that white culture has imagined, created and helped to produce."
:JawDrop :Angry :Thinking

"all those horrible things happened to your ancestors. They did not, however, happen to you."
<i>does this person actually live in the USA?</i>

"there is no (legal) slavery in America, no limited opportunities to become educated, vote, or buy property based solely on race, no lack of information or communication thereof"
<i>does this person actually live in the USA?</i>

"I would have made it a more thoughtful piece rather than a straight, biased account of events that is based in nothing more than hearsay. And 400 year old hearsay at that." <i>aaarrrgghhh</i> :Mad

"I hope this post has come across better and more indicative of my original meaning." <i>uh... yeah</i>
  Share with Facebook
Old 10-18-2001, 11:56 PM   #45
Oldfart
 
Kiwehnzii's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Kiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond repute
Kiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond reputeKiwehnzii has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,893
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
I am not arguing. I wanted Kelly or someone ( thank you Spiritwoman) to elaborate on the past of the Irish. I do know at least one Irish man whose views of the past are not what the proud Brit wants to hear. Sound familiar?

Sorry to you of Irish descent for bringing up a subjects that obviously hurts. ( I didn't really - Kelly didn't finish what she had begun to say)

I am guilty of not researching. I only know about the Irish what is reported in the media and (shame on me) what I see in movies.

I wonder - do the Irish people know that much about the original people of North America. From movies? John Wayne etc.? If so, can you imagine what they think about the savagery of little ole us?
Kiwehnzii is offline   Share with Facebook
Old 10-19-2001, 11:23 AM   #46
spiritwoman
Guest
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Posts: n/a
Great thread!

DWA, thanks for being cool.

When we start letting the government and popular opinion muzzle us our world will become like so many drones and we are doomed. Just as the Brits need to be reminded of their less than humanitarian treatment of the Irish, and the indigenous persons of all the colonies they 'raped' and transformed into mini-Fleet Streets; the U.S. and its people need to be reminded that we don't live in a glass house. Sure, the truth may be unpleasant, but it needs to be said. I don't have any problem with people voicing their opinions and feelings because the same privilege is allowed their dissenters. I may not like what someone says, or agree with it, but it is your right to believe what you believe. I admit to a prevalent human condition--wanting to convince others they are wrong and bring them to my side of the table when we differ. But, in the end, I respect you more for standing up for what you believe.

And, DWA, I lived in the UK and Australia for several years. The first thing my new friends always brought up was actor John Wayne. Yes, unfortunately, to many overseas America is still the Cowboys vs. the Indians--the celluloid Indians, not the real living, breathing, feeling, thinking Indian. This is where Native media and performing arts play a big role in reversing this trend. I think it is important, wherever they perform that Native artists be viewed in a contemporary light. Q & A sessions with the audience are one way this can be accomplished. The first AIDT tape showing the troupe actually on tour which is shown on PBS is another excellent avenue to educate the non-NDN public. It is important in educating the non-NDN public that they see not the extreme element that tends to get the limelight--AIM, etc.--but YOU! It is exciting to see Native media improving. I wish the US had a network like Canada, I hope we see this become a reality in the next 5 to 10 years. We already have other ethnic networks on cable, but I am not aware of a nationally televised Native network or major programming. If I am wrong, I hope someone posts to the contrary.

Thanks for listening...
  Share with Facebook
Old 10-19-2001, 04:01 PM   #47
Junior Dancer
 
musespirit's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
musespirit is an unknown quantity at this point
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Indiana has my heart, Florida has my fat butt
Posts: 103
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Theresa I'm white, and I think you need to ditch Kelly. She's poison. Find some real friends. You deserve better.

Hay Riverwind, You sound like you got your sh*t together. Keep up the good work. Maybe you'll be the countries next Red Martin Luther King. Your people need a voice God knows the media doesn't help.

Last edited by musespirit; 10-20-2001 at 11:13 AM..
musespirit is offline   Share with Facebook
Old 10-20-2001, 03:37 AM   #48
Pow Wow Visitor
 
mymistyeyes's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
mymistyeyes is an unknown quantity at this point
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: California
Posts: 5
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
here here muse!!!!

IF I MAY, I WOULD LIKE TO QUOTE THE ONE, THE ONLY, " WHOAA99"
YOU HAD THE RIGHT IDEA KELLY, BUT WORDED IT WRONG!!!
WHITES ARE NOT, AND WERE NOT JUST PREDOMINATE RACE! AS
WHOAA99 CALLES IT AS THE DOMINATE SOCIETY(I NEED SP CHK IN A MEAN WAY!).
I WOULD LIKE TO PASS ON ADVICE THAT WAS GIVEN TO ME BY THE SAME PERSON I QUOTED!
:Chatter
kELLY & TEE, TAKE THE TIME TO GO BACK AND READ THIS THREAD, WITH ONE CHANGE HOW EVER! WHEN YOU READ YOUR REPLYS, PRETEND THAT WHAT YOU WROTE IS FROM ME, AND ALL THE RESPONCES ARE DIRRECTED AT ME ALSO. PLEASE, JUST TO SEE IF YOUR FEELINGS ABOUT WHAT IS BEING SAID REMAINS THE SAME!!!!!

THERE IS SOMETHING TO BE SAID ABOUT THICK SKIN;)
__________________
smile with me today ! I'll see
you in tomorrow, and we can laugh
at all our yesterdays.......
mymistyeyes is offline   Share with Facebook
Old 10-20-2001, 02:32 PM   #49
Pow Wow Visitor
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
NDNRevolution is an unknown quantity at this point
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Powwow Trail
Posts: 2
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Exclamation

To me Thanksgiving is another day of mourning for the American Indian people. We must press the fact that this so called day of togetherness was the beginning of a holocaust of our people...a genocide of upon a loving and giving people. The pilgrims would not have survived this land without us and yet how did they repay us? They stick us on reservations of their choosing and try to make us forget our traditions. Even through it all, have we not been nice to our oppressors threw this 500 years of survival? It is time that the Indian people to stay strong and stop trying to just survive. It is time for us to start living through our cultural traditions and beliefs no matter what or who tries to stop us.

It is also time for all of these shameful misrepresentation of our indian people to come to an end. It is time that we educate the American public and let them know that we still exist. Let them know that our people still see the mistreatment today only in a different if not worse way.

It is time to show respect to all people and stop the oppression.

Mitaku Oyasin

Last edited by NDNRevolution; 10-20-2001 at 02:35 PM..
NDNRevolution is offline   Share with Facebook
Old 10-20-2001, 07:20 PM   #50
Guakia Taino Yahabo
 
Tvskekee's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Tvskekee has a reputation beyond reputeTvskekee has a reputation beyond reputeTvskekee has a reputation beyond reputeTvskekee has a reputation beyond reputeTvskekee has a reputation beyond reputeTvskekee has a reputation beyond reputeTvskekee has a reputation beyond reputeTvskekee has a reputation beyond reputeTvskekee has a reputation beyond reputeTvskekee has a reputation beyond reputeTvskekee has a reputation beyond reputeTvskekee has a reputation beyond reputeTvskekee has a reputation beyond reputeTvskekee has a reputation beyond reputeTvskekee has a reputation beyond reputeTvskekee has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 71
Credits: 323.00
Savings: 0.00
I have been sitting here reading the varied responses to my post. I really didnt expect it go as indepth as it has but it has shown us one thing that cannot be disputed. Our way of thiking is vastly different from non native peoples way of thinking. This has been the obstacle that has kept progress from becoming. Once we sit down and realize that we see things through different eyes and hear things through different ears then we can begin to tackle that barrier of misunderstanding.

I was pretty much accused of being racist for writing a "biased" paper. On one hand the paper was one sided because it was looking at the events of American history through our eyes. The history we grew up with in school is not our history and it is not through our eyes. It is exactly what it is called. HISTORY- or better yet HIS-STORY.

I dont hate white people or any other race, we are all part of that sacred hoop that the Giver of Breath made, we all have our downfalls, weaknesses, and strengths which make us no better then the other. It is our intentions and they way we live our lives that exemplify who we are as a people and how we heal from the past so our future generations can learn from our own mistakes.

I appluad Kelly for stepping up to voice her opinion and to speak out to what she truly believes. I also applaud her for stepping down and apologizing in a way, although my intent was NOT to bring white people to their knees to shove the sins of their forefathers in their face. All I wanted to do was share a side of the story that is never heard adn more then likely never will be. I get together for thanksgiving and eat until I burts( no excuse needed for an ndn to eat, especially if its free:) and there are many things to be thankful for but those days of thanksgiving are every day, celebrated through prayer and then intensified through ceremony, whether its a sweat or through our annual thanksgiving "celebrations" such as Green Corn. Maybe it is a sad thing that some people only set aside one day out of the whole year to express thier thanks, thats not for me to judge though so Im not going to try to change that.

To tell a lie is easier and to add onto those lies is ever easier then the first lie but to tell the truth once is harder then a creating web of lies. And many times that one truth can shatter the strongest of lies into nothing. We just want people to know that there is another side to the story, there is a deeper, darker side to the great American history which we are taught and by ignoring that we ignore the truth. So many people made mistakes, this country made mistakes, 376 treaties that we kept our word on and not once was the governments end of the deal ever kept on any of those. And through all of the abuse, lies, baording schools, assimilation programs, murders, rapes and more lies we lost almost everythign we had but there is one thing that noone can take from our people and that is our spirit. YOu can try to beat it out of us, choke it out of us, rape it out of us, abuse it out of us but it is the one thing that we have held onto this whole time and what has kept us going strong through all of these things.

I want to see people heal, I want to see people know and experience the truth. I want people to understand that no matter how pigmentally challenged or how black as night you are we are all still one race of beings in spirit. Maybe it will take a whole hell of alot more then a few papers to get there. I dont know, but I do know that I will never give up on my own, whether they are Lakota, Cheyenne, Micmac, Inuit, etc etc This is my family, this has been my family for thousands of years adn this will be the family of my grandchildren. What we do now effects them and the choice we make now effects the lives they will live. SO if we can get the truth out there, if we can get the briefcase warriors fighting to get our land back in the courts and all the other people fighting to keep what is ours: our language, our traditions, our customs, our dances then we have begun to win the battle. One fight at a time, piece by piece we will claim victory in the end in the most honorable of ways...without a drop of blood being spilt.
__________________
A Warrior without character is nothing more than a brute.

I have lots of freinds, you just cant see them:)
Tvskekee is offline   Share with Facebook
Old 10-21-2001, 12:00 AM   #51
Pow Wow Visitor
 
Abump's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Abump is an unknown quantity at this point
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Posts: 3
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Thumbs up

Riverwind....................Gialakasla for your amazing, conscious, thought provoking, writing that you have shared with us all. (I used to be T'sakis but somehow (?)i changed to Abump)
Abump is offline   Share with Facebook
Old 10-21-2001, 03:25 AM   #52
Pow Wow Visitor
 
mymistyeyes's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
mymistyeyes is an unknown quantity at this point
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: California
Posts: 5
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
jriverwind

:NoNo
I hope within you, is the courage to side step what ever
may come from posting your paper for the world to view!!!
I hope as time goes on, people will learn to lisiten, instead
of deny anothers view.
Thank you,
Riverwind
__________________
smile with me today ! I'll see
you in tomorrow, and we can laugh
at all our yesterdays.......
mymistyeyes is offline   Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Origin of Fancy Shawl??? GoodDay Fancy Shawl Dancing 10 05-23-2001 02:27 AM

    

Join the online community forum celebrating Native American Culture, Pow Wows, tribes, music, art, and history.

Join PowWows.com Today!

Your Guide to Native American Pow Wows Since 1996

Register For Free

Enjoy the benefits of being a member of PowWows.com!

Join our Native American online community focused on Pow Wow singing, dancing, crafts, Native American music, Native American videos, and more.

Add your Pow Wow to our Calendar

Share your photos and videos

Play games, enter contests, and much more!






New Threads

Pow Wow Calendar Search

 
Month: Year:

Location:
Facebook Profile Images

Videos

Featured Articles

Dance Styles

Crafts

Gallery