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Old 10-03-2014, 04:38 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by gilisi View Post
To clarify...by tone I am referring to the fact that you suggest we don't know our own histories...You accused us of lumping all mexicans on the same big bad bandwagon, but if you had read, many of us didn't do that.

i did read back. and i do see that most did not jump on the bandwagon. but i also see at time many did.
however, i do realize that not everyone realizes when they are doing so.
side comments, that maybe had no ill intention, can be misinterpreted as being anti mexican , or jumping on bandwagons and such things.

looking back i can see where something someone said could be taken wrong. Even things i said.

Like i used the word THEY. WIthout saying who "they" were.

ehh. I tell my kids never to just say THEY and their I go.

AT this point though , before things get out of hand , i ask my kids "what do you mean THEY?"

on another note, when we come from different areas, we say stuff different. I always found this cause so many problems.

there are natives who talk like chicanos, some who talk like 'black' people, someon like white people, some like texans, some like rednecks, some like professors, etc.

every time i see people meet who talk different , theres alwasy a couple who have friction.
until they get to know each other.

seen it too many times.

Last edited by koyoteh; 10-03-2014 at 05:05 PM..
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Old 10-03-2014, 06:49 PM   #122
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Maybe reference these threads to other Mexicans before everyon goes half cocked.....then maybe they can see there is some understanding
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Old 10-04-2014, 12:45 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by koyoteh View Post
i do not know you JOES DAD. but this aztlan bashing , is taking place across forumsn and across social websites and being done by a few individuals.

and all without one ounce of proof on their part.

even their enemies provide proof for their claims even if the proof is incorrect at times, they still do it.

Tha aztlan story is native. No matter who it comes from. The danzantes in mexico have it too. being a associated with them then you know this and you know the story is native. and you know the Mexica Movement has nothing to do with aztlan and the danzantes traditions surrounding the story.

yet you do not defend the native story and allow the bashing to go on and contribute to the bashing instead disrespect your native associates ancestors.

I know that the concheros do not promote warrior mentality but dang man. Help the natives out and defend their ancestors when they get bashed. and if some people are having misunderstandings shed light on those misunderstandings. from all sides of the table.

and if there are fakes out there misusing native stories, call them out while defending the ones who use it correctly.

i could only imagine that you might be one of the ones helping to contribute to the bashing in the other sites too.
which is a sad thing when elders of other nations gangbang on other natives ancestors.
You don't listen. You just spew nothings from your mouth.

I know where my father's family is from. I knew my great grandmother. My grandmother would tell me stories of where she came from. She said my grandfather fought alongside Zapata. I can only repeat what she told me.

I know my mother's family. She was born in a small town north of Tucson and east of Globe. She would tell me stories of when she was a little girl. I knew my grandmother and aunts and uncle on my mother's side.

I'm going to write this so you can perhaps understand what I am saying.

I know where I come from. I know my family and the stories they told me. I know my cultures. BOTH of them.

Now...

You se quien soy. Yo se donde vengo. Conosco mi familia. Yo se donde vienen. Conosco mi cultura de los dos lados.

I don't need to depend on Lakotas (no insult to the Lakota Oyate) to tell me I'm Indian. My family told me.

I don't need somebody spewing Atzlan to know who I am. My family told me.

To this day, I have never denied, or been embarrassed, of who I am and where I came from.

To say, or even imagine, that I would go to a site and bash my own kind is just plain assenine. How fvcking stupid can you get.

I honestly believe you don't know who you are because your family never told you. You're grasping at air, you use someone's else's culture to make you feel like you belong. You talk of atzlan as if you know the migration route the people took. And yes, I've talked to people who still speak nahuac. They KNOW their story. I don't think you have the credentials to talk of things as you do.

Like Wanjica the One asked. What is your tribe. Who is your family. Where do they come from.

When you have those answers, then you can sit at the table.
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Old 10-04-2014, 12:48 AM   #124
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And no. I don't follow the Mexica Movement. I have no idea what their ideals are and personally don't care. I don't have to live in a world that thinks the United States Government is going to 'hand us our land back and go back to europe'. Talk about living in lalaland.

I'm too old for those things.
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Old 10-04-2014, 12:58 AM   #125
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Old 10-05-2014, 10:35 PM   #126
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This blew up since my attention lapsed from it O.o
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Old 10-06-2014, 11:03 AM   #127
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well.....between the 3 treads i will admit i learned alittle something.......and i do think koyoteh learned a little about us himself
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Old 10-06-2014, 11:10 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
And no. I don't follow the Mexica Movement. I have no idea what their ideals are and personally don't care. I don't have to live in a world that thinks the United States Government is going to 'hand us our land back and go back to europe'. Talk about living in lalaland.

I'm too old for those things.
very interesting you say that....because i know f a faction of these mexica guys who advocate going to israel and fighting for palestine, and heard rumors of them going to russia to fight the ukraine and the "imperialistic U.S.GOVT".......i thought it was bullstein until i saw pics and videos...l.a. mexicas hangin out by tanks and all that.....hence why i call them DANGEROUS............and they want training and weapons to come home and take back the southwest.....insane.....the US will not give these up anymore than they will give manhattan island back...........my suggestion is though....if anybody wants to fight that fight they should leave other indians out of it and take it up with the US armed forces and see how far they get
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Old 10-06-2014, 11:14 AM   #129
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for the record....koyoteh did make it very clear that he does not belong or agree with any of these hate groups..............he told me that on fb and on pm and even touched the subject here on the forums........so while he does have intimate knowledge of these radical extremists....i dont think he is one of them or exactly tows their party line
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Old 10-06-2014, 11:02 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by milehighsalute View Post
very interesting you say that....because i know f a faction of these mexica guys who advocate going to israel and fighting for palestine, and heard rumors of them going to russia to fight the ukraine and the "imperialistic U.S.GOVT".......i thought it was bullstein until i saw pics and videos...l.a. mexicas hangin out by tanks and all that.....hence why i call them DANGEROUS............and they want training and weapons to come home and take back the southwest.....insane.....the US will not give these up anymore than they will give manhattan island back...........my suggestion is though....if anybody wants to fight that fight they should leave other indians out of it and take it up with the US armed forces and see how far they get
I think those pics and videos might've been faked or out of context, pretty out there. And even if it's true that must be a small group, that may very well die out there.|

And learning from eachother and building bridges is good in regards to you talking to koyoteh, couldn't bother to follow every thread that just popped up in my absence. :p
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Old 10-14-2014, 08:57 PM   #131
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luxury

to know a deep history of ones family...
to know history all the way back as far as the beginning of time.....
to know your tribe, your traditions , alll......
so many take for granted.
they are considered luxuries by a big chunk of native americaa who unfortunately family lines were ****ed with after the invasion.

so many disconnected. lost. due to war, slavery, forced relocation, rape, murder, and work.

i never argue the facts that many are lost and do not know much about who they are and where they came from.

but history did happen the way it happened. It created a lot of native holocaust victims.

I argue the way its dealt with.
I argue with the question "what do wedo about it?"

do you allow the disconnect to continue to grow?
do you allow the disconnected to continue to join the ranks of the govt system that continues its efforts to mess with natives and the cultures?

do you treat the disconnected and lost as part of the problem or a result of the problem?

do you treat the lost and disconnected as orphans and *******s and lepers?

OR do you compe together and bring them back to the fold?

privacy is good. It implies not being for or against any of the above as it is unrelated.

but for many they take a stand AGAINST the native holocaust descendants and bear no responsibility for any of the ancestors diecisions or predicaments or situations.

ONE thing many Mexicas fail to realiZze , is this. Whatever people thouhgt about them, or think about them, they had a big major respsonsibility. ANd for lack of a better word, LOST. Now its up to anyone claiming to be mexica to help restore the balance that existed, and learn from the mistakes their ancestors made. Cuase they lost cause they pissed everyone off. Yes i said it.

ONe thing about Mexica History, before they became theire own confederation, they did work for other tribes. THey did work for other tribes. YEs they did work for other tribes.

In other words, if anyone wants to claim mexica, and regain IDENTITY and DIGNITY, not some 'empire' , they need to offer themselves up to work for other tribes.
To be on the frontlines of natives issues as suppport. ONLY IF AND WHEN ASKED TO.

yes this has taken place. and does take place. but not by all the groups.

Heres the problem, if not wanting their help, thats ok. there are many that do.
but to create animosity toward LOST CHILDREN who are trying to regain identity, dignity, self sufficiency, and spirituality in this corporate jungle, they will remember that and that creates hositility and indifference.
YES THIS HAS ALSO HAPPPENED.

to the point where some of these mexica hate groups have said **** it. why bother. This creates a big problem as you see it has.

It is these crazy mexica hate groups that end up spewing aztlan garbage. IT IS VITAL TO KNOW WHERE THE SO CALLED GARBAGE IS COMING FROM AND WHY AND HOW IT DEVELOPED.

i mean, if anyone is truly bothered by it, it would be then beneficial to undo it. BUT to undo it , you need to know abuot it.

just to call it garbage is ignorant.

if only the mexica nazis themselves new anything about aztlan they themselves would not be spewing garbage.

so i would suggest if anyone really truly does not like the mexica nazism/imperialism dogma.

then learn about the story. the history, as much as you can, and school them about themselves. ENLIGHTEN THEM, instead of destroying their dignity.
IF you enlighten them they will change. The individual members will change for the better, and instead NOT become hateful and indifferent.

These guys were created by the holocaust and then further molded by natives who rejected their existence. and triggered into action by and institution and cultures that would rather not deal with them at all. Of course they are going to be fed up at some point and be indifferent to everyone around them.

but again what to do about it?

part of the solution? or part of the problem?

I will say this, excpet for the one(s) who created Mexica Movement, most of these people that are complained about , are children. Yes children. EVen someone in their 20's is still very much a kid. Kids are easily manipulated and misled.
Its the duty of the older ones to help steer them in the right direction.

We all know this history though.
The peopple were messed with. THen they got old. And could no longer lead very well.
No not all. but many many many.

Last century birthed many native 'militant' groups. Many 'ethnic' militants groups. All of which were pretty much ran by kids with no guidance.

Do we let this continue?
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Old 10-14-2014, 09:08 PM   #132
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taken for granted

I and many others, in our time, and so still doing it, have gone to many reservations and communities as support groups. To help out a tribes elder, or family who needed help but could not find help from their own people.

They would describe to us the situations and scenarios of how and why no one in their tribes were interested in their old ways anymore or very few

this was like 20 years ago.
have things changed? maybe .

THe older ones from some of these tribes said their youth know who they are. they know where the come from. they were born and raised on the res and in the ways, yet they were not interested.
they said they needed to share their knowledge with others. pass it on. yet their youth were not interested.

whether it was right or wrong or an act of desperation, there were many chicanos at that time who were hungry to help.

we were not raised on a res, but we were raised to know that nothing is free. That its only right to help. SO many of us were asked to help and we did.

and i will say that once i was there, helping, i did see what the older people from their reservaations were talking about.
We ended up doing all the work, while all their people just partied.

well, i will say that after awhile we did figure out that maybe it wasn't a good idea to be there. maybe. So many of us stopped going. But we sawa what we saw.
many a native who knows everything about themselves yet take for granted what a blessing they have.

AGain, not all but many. ANd i imagine that in 20 years thngs have changed for the better.

Having had contact with disconnected natives, has been both good and bad.
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Old 10-14-2014, 09:20 PM   #133
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chicano aid

@milehighsalute

yeah man, many chicanos have helped other 'non-american' groups out there in the world.

this is no secret. SOme of the photos that are out there though are not all real. some are photoshpped to express sentiment.


many chicanos and other natives whether lost or not , express sentiments for all of the u.s.a's enemies.

Natives are not unified. Some side with the english/british descendants and their U.S.A. army, and some side with the Mexican Armies, and some with the french. Then many squabble over speaking english or spanish, or corporate interests. and go kill other native tribes in the americas, or other tribes in the middle east. This siding has been going on since day one of the invasion.


Yet some will not side with any of those. Instead forming their own groups, that yes are skillfully weaker, but skill level is not the point. The point is that at some point we all need to take care of ourselves and show some unity and it has to start someowhere somehow.

so then we GOt AIM, black panthers, Brown Berets. Laters we had other groups, that took it further learning from their mistakes. I will not name them, but they are now where near related to mexica movement.

Then yes, the old MM, sprouted. ANd some how , their dognma overshadows all the good efforts of all the other groups out there.

but theres also NYM . Taking it further.


Talk about chicanos helping out some of the native struggles in mexico, and theres thousands of phots out there to show how that is being done. Its no secret.

i have to wonder though, how much is real and how much is fabricated?

and how many groups are the people real groups and how many are actually govt groups created to split the community?

been done before. That why we have crips and bloods now.

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Old 10-14-2014, 09:26 PM   #134
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And no. I don't follow the Mexica Movement. I have no idea what their ideals are and personally don't care. I don't have to live in a world that thinks the United States Government is going to 'hand us our land back and go back to europe'. Talk about living in lalaland.

I'm too old for those things.
a lot of the complaints you have , the issues , are rooted in that group. if you don't care, i don't think you would be saying the things you do.

they are the ones saying what you just said is living in la la land.

no, the rest of us have a different approach to 'taking things back" and a whole different definition about what that means.

and YES the definition of what non- mexican movement people mean is more along the lines of some of the better things you said.
Knowing who you are.
finding you family connections. Going way back as far as we can to be able to say who we are.
THats more about what Non-Mexica Movement people mean.

BUt for us it isn't so easy a thing to do.
Some of us go back only 500 years or so and then hit a blank area where **** happened. We know what happened.
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Old 10-14-2014, 09:35 PM   #135
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Okay that's just great. Good for you! Your jibberishness is winning you converts! WB can learn a thing or two from you...



I'm gonna make some popcorn soon as I figure out how to work this popcorn maker.
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Old 10-14-2014, 09:37 PM   #136
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You don't listen. You just spew nothings from your mouth.

I know where my father's family is from. I knew my great grandmother. My grandmother would tell me stories of where she came from. She said my grandfather fought alongside Zapata. I can only repeat what she told me.

I know my mother's family. She was born in a small town north of Tucson and east of Globe. She would tell me stories of when she was a little girl. I knew my grandmother and aunts and uncle on my mother's side.

I'm going to write this so you can perhaps understand what I am saying.

I know where I come from. I know my family and the stories they told me. I know my cultures. BOTH of them.

Now...

You se quien soy. Yo se donde vengo. Conosco mi familia. Yo se donde vienen. Conosco mi cultura de los dos lados.

I don't need to depend on Lakotas (no insult to the Lakota Oyate) to tell me I'm Indian. My family told me.

I don't need somebody spewing Atzlan to know who I am. My family told me.

To this day, I have never denied, or been embarrassed, of who I am and where I came from.

To say, or even imagine, that I would go to a site and bash my own kind is just plain assenine. How fvcking stupid can you get.

I honestly believe you don't know who you are because your family never told you. You're grasping at air, you use someone's else's culture to make you feel like you belong. You talk of atzlan as if you know the migration route the people took. And yes, I've talked to people who still speak nahuac. They KNOW their story. I don't think you have the credentials to talk of things as you do.

Like Wanjica the One asked. What is your tribe. Who is your family. Where do they come from.

When you have those answers, then you can sit at the table.
its good to know who you are.
what a luxury.
thats nice.
Others don't have it so well. I support them and all of us to find that out.
Its a whole nutha experience being born not knowing those things. a whole other experience to not even know where to begin.
a whole nuthat experience to wake up one day and realize that everything you were born into was a lie.
And for natives who were born into it, to not knowing the experience of these things first hand, and putting the lost descendants down for their being born unknowing. FOr putting lost descdants down for making efforts to learn who they are.

theres something arrogant in that. something a bit conceited.

I have seen many many natives across the country have no respect for their elders. THey say there are elders and there are old people.
I have fought this idea for a very long time, but they are right.

Theres a reason native youth are/were disillusioned by the own elders. Not all, but some.

From alcohol abuse, to domestic abuse, to drugs, to rape and molestation. WE can't go anywhere in native land without running into these types of stories.

i am from a generation that wanted to undo these damages. but when old people do their best to tear down the younger ones, i am understanding why a lot of natives say "there are elders, and there are old people".

i don't know you in person. Maybe you are a very different person in person, and not somene who likes to make insults as a form of evidence.

anyone can make insults. but not everyone can make sense.
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Old 10-14-2014, 09:42 PM   #137
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anyone can make insults. but not everyone can make sense.

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Old 10-14-2014, 09:49 PM   #138
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because it keeps coming up

ok. when anyone brings up who i am , or who they are, it makes no sense.

NOt when the thread is about something specific that does not relate.

My family told me i am Yaqui. Also, on the other side, i been told more.

I dont' bring that up because it has nothing to do with a story that some call a myth.

If anyone wants to bring up who i am , in a thread about Aztlan, i ask you why?

NOw when i say i am yaqui, what does that mean? I didn't grow up in tucson if thats what anyone really wants to know. I didn't grow up speaking the language.
I found out more about my mexica side of things first. because it was here around me. I did not grow up in mexico city/tenochtitlan or any of the surrounding villages. I did not grow up in my granpas village in zacatecas, another 'mexica' people. Or growing up with my other grandpa that never shared he was mayan. Theres reasons why they never spoke. I do not condem them.
I also have a relative that fought in zapatas army. shooot, who doesn't. but again. lots of mexicans will not speak of these things.

i would argue that merely knowing your tribe and family is not enough. ITs a beginning.
but its not enough.
here's MY reason why.
A lot of tribes became christian or joined the foreigners armies and fully believe in their dogma.

since my situation of being born outside my homelands are a direct result of their foreign religion and armies, i am not seeing how me rushing 'home' is going to help.
At least thats how i used to see it when i was young.
Not anymore. but now i am without means to go 'home'.

No I stilll do not want to be 'traditional' if traditional means becoming white. becoming white meaning , becoming christian/catholic or patriotic. Thats not traditional. Sorry.

but thats not going to stop me from going back 'home' , and finiding the non christians out there.

Last edited by koyoteh; 10-14-2014 at 10:03 PM..
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Old 10-14-2014, 09:54 PM   #139
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@milehighsalute

yeah man, many chicanos have helped other 'non-american' groups out there in the world.

this is no secret. SOme of the photos that are out there though are not all real. some are photoshpped to express sentiment.


many chicanos and other natives whether lost or not , express sentiments for all of the u.s.a's enemies.

Natives are not unified. Some side with the english/british descendants and their U.S.A. army, and some side with the Mexican Armies, and some with the french. Then many squabble over speaking english or spanish, or corporate interests. and go kill other native tribes in the americas, or other tribes in the middle east. This siding has been going on since day one of the invasion.


Yet some will not side with any of those. Instead forming their own groups, that yes are skillfully weaker, but skill level is not the point. The point is that at some point we all need to take care of ourselves and show some unity and it has to start someowhere somehow.

so then we GOt AIM, black panthers, Brown Berets. Laters we had other groups, that took it further learning from their mistakes. I will not name them, but they are now where near related to mexica movement.

Then yes, the old MM, sprouted. ANd some how , their dognma overshadows all the good efforts of all the other groups out there.

but theres also NYM . Taking it further.


Talk about chicanos helping out some of the native struggles in mexico, and theres thousands of phots out there to show how that is being done. Its no secret.
ok.....i will name one......a mexica who fell in love with communism....studied it in school....moved to serbia as a journalist and now he and his buddy victor advocate other azlanistas to go get training fighting for russia......i am talking of one joaquin flores.....the syncretic studies guy...........now i do agree that russia is in the right and the US is backing up a very bad man, but telling other chicano US citizens it is their duty to go over and take arms, especially if the US gets more involved, to take arms against their fellow americans? thats treason if you ask me..............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs2U...ature=youtu.be

look at video at :58 mark......recognize victor? one of the main mexica dudes......they claim to be exporting alot more able chicano and INDIAN bodies.......this is why i said earlier they were DANGEROUS
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Old 10-14-2014, 10:08 PM   #140
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its good to critique

btw @Milehighsalute

i think its good to analyzed and critique groups rhetoric and stories. theres a lot of mininformation out there , and its not the fault of those who hear the rhetoric.

as someone who says they are yaqui AND also a descendant of 'mexica', it would also be our responsibility to know what the hell we are doing and what the hell our "own" people are saying.

Mexica Movement is putting out there misinformation. Others are hearing it and being influenced by it.

Some are influenced by it by joining it and supporting it, and others are influenced by reacting to it and believing 'we are all like that'.

sometimes i wonder if MM was a govt created group just to cause internal community strife and disunity.

Last edited by koyoteh; 10-14-2014 at 10:33 PM..
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