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Old 12-09-2017, 02:45 PM   #41
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I'm sorry if i offend you, that's the last thing i would do.I want to make friends here, not enemies.

Yes, i'm a non-native and i read any book i can about the Natives.I do have the greatest respect for you, guys.
Many apologies for talking nonsense.
Dude. Best advise you can be given is, LISTEN.

We don't know every tribe's history. We don't try to tell other tribe's their history. Sit back, relax and learn.
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Old 12-09-2017, 07:17 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
I'm not nice. Look at what you wrote. tribal memebers talked about stuff in a teepee??? what makes you think 'tribal members' live in a teepee?

Smoking a 'peace pipe'? Describe a peace pipe.

This is the kind of nonsense talk a non-native says when they read a book. This is the kind of nonsense talk where people think Indians still run around in leather and fringe.

I'm going to my teepee now.
I don't think tribal members live in a teepee.They did that in the past and what's wrong with that.They lived in harmony with nature.

About the peace pipe. I tought it was the same as a sacred pipe.Your people used to smoke that before negotiatons with the enemy.I made a mistake.My apologies.
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Old 12-10-2017, 06:39 AM   #43
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Chalako, I'm a former college professor and try for the teachable moment. Bear with me though this.

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I don't think tribal members live in a teepee.They did that in the past and what's wrong with that....
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Originally Posted by Chalako View Post
...Your people used to smoke that before negotiatons with the enemy....
You're missing to point of JD's advice -- LISTEN. This does not mean argue with what you're told. This does not mean defend your perspective. This does not mean prove you're right.

In many of our cultures, the dominant culture mode of debate is rude. In many of our traditional cultures, you respectfully listen to all points of view. You weigh them. You give yourself time to hear all the points. Then you discard or take to heart, as you see fit.

Now me, being perfectly comfortable with debate, I'm going to argue with you, LOL.

Frequently, when Native people confront misrepresentations of our cultures, we end up being told by book reading experts we're wrong. And by extension ignorant of our own cultures. Can you see how presumptuous that is? Our cultures aren't in books. And just because someone might or might not have certain details right, that doesn't mean they're grasping the whole picture.


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They lived in harmony with nature.
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Originally Posted by Chalako View Post
About the peace pipe. I tought it was the same as a sacred pipe.Your people used to smoke that before negotiatons with the enemy.I made a mistake.My apologies.
From my point of view, you're coming perilously close to trafficking in stereotypes -- albeit it positive rather than negative ones. The problem with stereotypes is that they over simplify matter, glossing over many details, hiding key facts. "Living in harmony with nature" and "peace pipe" are red flag expressions for many Native people.
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Old 12-10-2017, 08:08 AM   #44
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Joe's Dad and OlChemist, thanks for the answer.I'm a bit of a romantic soul who thinks that the past was better then the present.It's stupid, i know.
I will try to listen in the future.

May i ask one more question?

Why is "Living in harmony with nature" a red flag expression.If people would do it now, the world would be a better place.
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:33 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Chalako View Post
Joe's Dad and OlChemist, thanks for the answer.I'm a bit of a romantic soul who thinks that the past was better then the present.It's stupid, i know.
I will try to listen in the future.

May i ask one more question?

Why is "Living in harmony with nature" a red flag expression.If people would do it now, the world would be a better place.

Greetings and welcome to powwows.calm ! The reason that's a "red flag" is that expression is a stereotypical belief and nowhere near the truth ! Our ancestors fought tooth and nail just to survive with nature ! We dealt with animals , the weather , other tribes. There was very little "harmonious life" as you believe. Life was good but it took so much work our ancestors had relatively short life spans ! Having to hunt every bit of meat , searching out roots and vegetables and berries , then trying to store them so we didn't starve in the winter. The idea that we lived "at one with nature" is a farce ! Heck , I saw the other day where a hunter,up in Montana , got eaten by a grizzly bear ! And this is modern times , with modern weapons and the bear still ate him. Think how it was when all we had was a bow and a knife ??? And 10x the bears back then.(just 1 example) When game was scarce we went hungry !One small miscalculation and you died ! Pretty "harmonious" ! Better read some more books ! Try to find some that tell the real stories about life !
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:51 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Chalako View Post
I'm a bit of a romantic soul who thinks that the past was better then the present.
This is not a surprising revelation, LOL :)

I do wonder if people who tell me things like this -- over the internet, typed on their cell phone or computer -- have really thought about the implications of living in the past. In my experience, they have blissfully turned a blind eye to outhouses, tetanus and dysentery. My grandfather told me his grandmother's stories of virgin field epidemics. The second hand tales of the deaths of 4 close family members in one day from cholera will make one a big fan of modern sewage and water treatment.


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Why is "Living in harmony with nature" a red flag expression.If people would do it now, the world would be a better place.
You need to understand, you're not the first non-Indian enamored with Indians that I -- or most any other Native person -- has met. Almost universally, they cling to a romantic ideal of mystical, eco-hippy in buckskin, walking with their pet wolf and singing with the trees. Their idea of a Native person is often part Gandhi, part Timothy Leary, part Rousseau/Dryden's Noble Savage. No matter the mix, it isn't a real person.

When confronted with a too real, too human, contradictory Native person, they are disappointed. After the initial shock, they have two choices: their conception of Native people is wrong, or the Native person is flawed. Nobody likes to admit they're wrong, so the Native must be at fault. Heck, they must not even be "really" Native. They must be a disgrace to their ancestors.

Here's a prototype of that conversation:

Life without hospitals

The phrase "Living in harmony with nature" tends to be spoken by folks who hold this kind of romanticized image. To me, it is a warning that very likely I will fail to met this person's expectations and it will not come out well.

Before you tell me to give the speaker the benefit of the doubt, please consider how many times Native people confront stereotypes and the consequences on a daily basis. I'm a fair skinned mixed blood woman, with all the credentials and trappings one would expect of a research scientist. I can choose to close my mouth and pass, as it were. Thus, I don't get subjected to the experience anywhere near as often as someone whose phenotype fits the dominant culture expectations of Native appearance. But, it still happens on a near daily basis. And when I do open my mouth -- something for which, you may have noticed, I have a propensity -- I can watch non-Indian folks try to fit me in their mental box labelled "I for Indian" and fail. Worse, I've seen my little nieces and nephews experience the same thing and seen them struggle with being judged inauthentic, in a world were being Indian is hard enough.

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Old 12-11-2017, 12:44 PM   #47
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Wow, that's a lot to think about.I knew it was a hard life and it did'nt get any better when the whites came.

I'm not gonna debate over it because my english writing is'nt very good.I would like to talk about it face to face with you, guys.But that's not gonna happend.

I can say life over here was'nt that good either let's say 500 years agoo.Living in filthy city's with diseases as "the plague" also known as" the black death", cholera and many more.And whe also starved to death sometimes.

So, if i could choose i would prefere your life back then.Ofcourse now it's much better and i like the luxury of the modern life but still........
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Old 12-11-2017, 02:29 PM   #48
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So, if i could choose i would prefere your life back then.
What people don't seem to realize is back in 1491, many people in the Americas were settled town and city dwellers. Life in those communities would have been familiar to the farm-folk of much of Europe. Except that the New World lacked species docile and large enough for domestication as beasts of burden, so man power still ruled the farm. (And by and large we believed regular bathing was a good thing, as opposed Europeans of the era who only changed clothes occasionally throughout year.) But People in both worlds lived lives of hard hard work. Farming was and is still one of the most dangerous occupations.

But, I suspect that the life of commoner working on a farm and herding llama in the Andes or of a valuable man working his corn and squash in the fields below Mishongnovi is NOT what you had in mind. Based on the imagery you invoked in your early posts, I bet you fancy life as a Oglala or Cheyenne hunter and warrior. Let's look at that life in the back then before the European reintroduced the horse to the Americas.

You walked -- everywhere. You carried your weapons, clothes, family home, food stores, and other belongings on your back and the backs of your women, children and dogs. The powerful Arikara, Ponca, Omaha, Pawnee, Mandan and Hidatsa hadn't yet been decimated by introduced disease. They held the fertile river bottoms with fields and fortified earth lodge villages. They competed with you for the buffalo and other game, which you hunted on foot with stone and wood tools. They would more than occasionally make you regret crossing their lands in search of resources.

The sick and weak died in childhood. Old age came early. The old died when they became arthritic or otherwise infirm, sometimes by their own hand for the good of their kin. You had few opportunities for mistakes as you learned, as they were usually fatal. This was life without a safety net.

You would spend every minute not seeking or processing food and defending your kin, making the tools for your survival. You had no boss or clock, but you had to submit yourself to good of the tiyospaye, in a way that I doubt the modern western person would find easy or pleasant.
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Old 12-11-2017, 02:34 PM   #49
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... because my english writing is'nt very good....
After re-reading my last two posts, my English writing isn't too good either, LOL.

Thanks for keeping the discussion open :)

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Old 12-12-2017, 02:44 AM   #50
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Better read some more books ! Try to find some that tell the real stories about life !
Hello in another world.

May be some of the books which OL Chemist recommends in the threat books you may consider to read.

Perhaps OL Chemist may hint you to more books which are more in the direction of what has been said here already.

LOL, writing iun English if you are thinking in another language is demanding and I never get said th efull emaning especially if emotions, believe and other non material thoughts are involved.
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And wisdom to know the difference.
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Enjoying one moment at a time,
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Old 12-12-2017, 07:54 AM   #51
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Quote:
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I don't think tribal members live in a teepee.They did that in the past and what's wrong with that.They lived in harmony with nature.

About the peace pipe. I tought it was the same as a sacred pipe.Your people used to smoke that before negotiatons with the enemy.I made a mistake.My apologies.
You don't learn...

There are over 500 tribes on Turtle Island. Can you be tribal specific, In other words, can you specifically name the tribes that used tipis. An example: Can you show me a photo of a buffalo in Florida AND name the tribes. Was there buffalo where the longhouse was predominant? Did the Dine and Apache Nde use tipis? What was the geographic location of the Cherokee? What did they use for their tipis?

Do you know any stories of the origin of the pipe? What material was the bowl made of? Did the use rock, wood, etc. for the stem? Which of the over 500 tribes used a pipe?

Going back in my tipi.
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:05 AM   #52
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Wow, that's a lot to think about.I knew it was a hard life and it did'nt get any better when the whites came.

I'm not gonna debate over it because my english writing is'nt very good.I would like to talk about it face to face with you, guys.But that's not gonna happend.

I can say life over here was'nt that good either let's say 500 years agoo.Living in filthy city's with diseases as "the plague" also known as" the black death", cholera and many more.And whe also starved to death sometimes.

So, if i could choose i would prefere your life back then.Ofcourse now it's much better and i like the luxury of the modern life but still........
Do you wear lederhosen? And do you stand on the mountain, blow that long horn and yell, "Ricola!"?

That's what I envision when I see 'Belgium'.
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

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Old 12-12-2017, 10:43 AM   #53
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Do you wear lederhosen? And do you stand on the mountain, blow that long horn and yell, "Ricola!"?

That's what I envision when I see 'Belgium'.
That is evil.
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True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
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“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 12-12-2017, 11:04 AM   #54
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I am going to recommend a couple books by Native authors:

Anton Treuer, Everything You Wanted to Know About Indians But Were Afraid to Ask, Borealis Books, 2012.

Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz and Dina Gilio-Whitaker, "All the Real Indians Died Off": And 20 Other Myths About Native Americans, Beacon Press, 2016.

Thomas King, The Inconvenient Indian: A Curious Account of Native People in North America, University of Minnesota Press, 2013.
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:24 PM   #55
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I am going to recommend a couple books by Native authors:
as always when you recommend books.
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:55 PM   #56
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You don't learn...

There are over 500 tribes on Turtle Island. Can you be tribal specific, In other words, can you specifically name the tribes that used tipis. An example: Can you show me a photo of a buffalo in Florida AND name the tribes. Was there buffalo where the longhouse was predominant? Did the Dine and Apache Nde use tipis? What was the geographic location of the Cherokee? What did they use for their tipis?

Do you know any stories of the origin of the pipe? What material was the bowl made of? Did the use rock, wood, etc. for the stem? Which of the over 500 tribes used a pipe?

Going back in my tipi.
The Sioux and Cheyennes used tipi's and the Nez-perce and Comanches to, i believe.
There are no buffalo's in Florida and it belonged to the Seminoles.
The Apaches lived in wickiups and the Navajo's in adobe buildings.
The Cherokee lived near the Ohio river near Washington.

I don't know the origin of the pipe but the bowl was made of red clay, holy clay.I think they used wood for the stem.
I don't know how many tribes used a sacred pipe and who.I'm not an expert.Most likely the tribes that lived on the prairi.

That's all i can say so out of my head.
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:58 PM   #57
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I am going to recommend a couple books by Native authors:

Anton Treuer, Everything You Wanted to Know About Indians But Were Afraid to Ask, Borealis Books, 2012.

Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz and Dina Gilio-Whitaker, "All the Real Indians Died Off": And 20 Other Myths About Native Americans, Beacon Press, 2016.

Thomas King, The Inconvenient Indian: A Curious Account of Native People in North America, University of Minnesota Press, 2013.
Thank you very much.

I will try to find them on Amazon when i have the money.
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Old 12-12-2017, 04:05 PM   #58
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Do you wear lederhosen? And do you stand on the mountain, blow that long horn and yell, "Ricola!"?

That's what I envision when I see 'Belgium'.
There's no need to make fun of me.
I think you are mistaken Belgium with Austria or Switserland.We have no mountains and we don't wear lederhosen either.

You have seen that in a commercial, did you?
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Old 12-12-2017, 04:31 PM   #59
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What people don't seem to realize is back in 1491, many people in the Americas were settled town and city dwellers. Life in those communities would have been familiar to the farm-folk of much of Europe. Except that the New World lacked species docile and large enough for domestication as beasts of burden, so man power still ruled the farm. (And by and large we believed regular bathing was a good thing, as opposed Europeans of the era who only changed clothes occasionally throughout year.) But People in both worlds lived lives of hard hard work. Farming was and is still one of the most dangerous occupations.

But, I suspect that the life of commoner working on a farm and herding llama in the Andes or of a valuable man working his corn and squash in the fields below Mishongnovi is NOT what you had in mind. Based on the imagery you invoked in your early posts, I bet you fancy life as a Oglala or Cheyenne hunter and warrior. Let's look at that life in the back then before the European reintroduced the horse to the Americas.

You walked -- everywhere. You carried your weapons, clothes, family home, food stores, and other belongings on your back and the backs of your women, children and dogs. The powerful Arikara, Ponca, Omaha, Pawnee, Mandan and Hidatsa hadn't yet been decimated by introduced disease. They held the fertile river bottoms with fields and fortified earth lodge villages. They competed with you for the buffalo and other game, which you hunted on foot with stone and wood tools. They would more than occasionally make you regret crossing their lands in search of resources.

The sick and weak died in childhood. Old age came early. The old died when they became arthritic or otherwise infirm, sometimes by their own hand for the good of their kin. You had few opportunities for mistakes as you learned, as they were usually fatal. This was life without a safety net.

You would spend every minute not seeking or processing food and defending your kin, making the tools for your survival. You had no boss or clock, but you had to submit yourself to good of the tiyospaye, in a way that I doubt the modern western person would find easy or pleasant.
Thank you for all this information.Yes, life was a struggle for your people and mine.Maybe i have to change my mind.
Like as said before, we suffered also a lot over here.Overpopulation,desease, starvation, that's why they came to your country" The land of milk and honey" so they believed.



I think it's the fault of the moviemakers pretending life was so good back then.Like"Dances with Wolves" and "A man called horse"also "The last of the Dogman".These are great movies, maybe not in your eyes.Don't know.

But i still love your beautiful people and feel sad about what happend to you.

Thanks again for opening my eyes.
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Old 12-12-2017, 06:32 PM   #60
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OK, the teacher in me can't let this go. Slap me folks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalako View Post
The Sioux and Cheyennes used tipi's and the Nez-perce and Comanches to, i believe.
Partial credit :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalako View Post
There are no buffalo's in Florida and it belonged to the Seminoles.
Partial credit. In the pre-contact era, buffalo did range into the panhandle of Florida.

Historic Bison range

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...and the Navajo's in adobe buildings.
Dine lived/live in earth and timber, stone and timber, timber, and modern wood frame hogans.

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The Cherokee lived near the Ohio river near Washington.
Wow, the Ohio River has moved. Historically, the Cherokee lived, primarily, in what is modern North Carolina, Georgia, and Tennessee. ( Lovely country, by the way. I holds a special place in my heart.) Today they have homelands in Oklahoma and North Carolina. But Cherokee citizens live all over the world.

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I don't know the origin of the pipe but the bowl was made of red clay, holy clay.I think they used wood for the stem.
There are many stories for the origin of the pipe. Each tribe that uses it, has its own. Some tribes made pipes with clay, some with soap stone, some with serpentine, and some with catlinite. I've seen stone, horn and wood.

But, these details are irrelevant. They are only questions and answers to illustrate a point. If JD had said to me what he said to you, here is how I would have interpreted his words: "You're no expert. You're not part of my tribe; don't presume to tell me what my tribe does. When I tell you you're wrong, don't argue with me just because what I've said doesn't agree with a book or movie."

JD, forgive me if I was presumptuous. But, I think we're running up against European vs Native learning modes here. Deductive vs inductive.
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