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Old 12-12-2017, 05:36 PM   #61
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BTW, Chalako if it makes you feel any better... I'd be hard pressed to find a river in your country. But your cooks have done lovely things with New World foods like chocolate, vanilla and potatoes. Trust me to focus of food, LOL.
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Old 12-13-2017, 07:17 AM   #62
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OK, the teacher in me can't let this go. Slap me folks.


But, these details are irrelevant. They are only questions and answers to illustrate a point. If JD had said to me what he said to you, here is how I would have interpreted his words: "You're no expert. You're not part of my tribe; don't presume to tell me what my tribe does. When I tell you you're wrong, don't argue with me just because what I've said doesn't agree with a book or movie."

JD, forgive me if I was presumptuous. But, I think we're running up against European vs Native learning modes here. Deductive vs inductive.
LOL, I will never, never slap you.

I may offer a point of view which is supported by my experience which derives form the surrounding I live with.


There is a different way of learning I think though I do not want to hang to the words deductive and inductive.
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:54 PM   #63
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BTW, Chalako if it makes you feel any better... I'd be hard pressed to find a river in your country. But your cooks have done lovely things with New World foods like chocolate, vanilla and potatoes. Trust me to focus of food, LOL.

So, teacher.What score would you give me; C, B+ or maybe an A-.
I'm already afraid for JD's reaction.LOL

We are also famous for our beer and waffles.

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Old 12-13-2017, 02:08 PM   #64
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In a local magazine i have read an interview with Peter Cozzens about his book"The earth is weeping".Did somebody read this book and if so what are your toughts about it.
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Old 12-13-2017, 03:46 PM   #65
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Well, Cozzens counters Brown's (Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee) premise of deliberate genocide during the Indian Wars. Cozzens does a more even handed job of presenting the good and bad men on all sides.

I'm no expert in the era he covers. But my experience suggests like most of the history of encounters between Native and non-Native in North America, people were acting in accord with the mores of their culture. But the huge differences in worldviews, land usage patterns, and social systems created a situation where neither side could understand the other. Violent collision was inevitable. On both sides, people who believed themselves to be pursuing the morally correct path were doing things that were reprehensible by the standards of the other side. I think, he tries to convey this.
However, there are many scholars who don't agree. Here's a review by one:

ICMT Review of The Earth is Weeping

I didn't find Cozzens' writing style particularly compelling. This might of have been because it was yet another telling of events with which I was reasonably familiar. But some critics have made the same observation, so maybe not.
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Old 12-13-2017, 04:03 PM   #66
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Appreciation of beer's virtues is not a skill I possess. I've never been able to stand the stuff, LOL. I wasn't sure if the waffles were authentic. Good to know they are.

I've never been to Belgium. The closest I've gotten was Amiens, when I visited Notre-Dame d'Amiens about 30 years ago. Not even the same country, LOL. My mom has pictures she took of Gravensteen castle when she travelled to Ghant while studying in Europe during her college years. But, I never got there.
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Old 12-13-2017, 09:34 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Appreciation of beer's virtues is not a skill I possess. I've never been able to stand the stuff, LOL. I wasn't sure if the waffles were authentic. Good to know they are.

I've never been to Belgium. The closest I've gotten was Amiens, when I visited Notre-Dame d'Amiens about 30 years ago. Not even the same country, LOL. My mom has pictures she took of Gravensteen castle when she travelled to Ghant while studying in Europe during her college years. But, I never got there.
I've been in Ghant last year.For me it's not that far but i live in a small village not far from Bruges.Here is a link to the site of Bruges...

https://www.visitbruges.be/en

If you want you can take a look at all the beautiful places in town.Enjoy
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Old 12-13-2017, 11:16 PM   #68
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Bear with this aging student of Euorpean art.... Is the light in Bruges really like the light in van Eyck paintings?

Light is powerful a player in the painter's work. You really don't understand Monet, Degas, Renoir, Cezanne or the other French Impressionists until you've seen the light in Paris, Giverny and the Cote d'Azur. Same with any other painter.

I'm babbling, LOL.
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:11 AM   #69
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The Sioux and Cheyennes used tipi's and the Nez-perce and Comanches to, i believe.
There are no buffalo's in Florida and it belonged to the Seminoles.
The Apaches lived in wickiups and the Navajo's in adobe buildings.
The Cherokee lived near the Ohio river near Washington.

I don't know the origin of the pipe but the bowl was made of red clay, holy clay.I think they used wood for the stem.
I don't know how many tribes used a sacred pipe and who.I'm not an expert.Most likely the tribes that lived on the prairi.

That's all i can say so out of my head.
Sometimes, you can show your lack of knowledge by relying on books and the internet. I believe the the Cherokees of Big Cove would disagree where you say they lived.

Rely on the internet for your answers.
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:15 AM   #70
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Chalako, forgive me if you know this already.

There was and is an enormous range of cultural variation among the Native people of the Americas. In the pre-contact Americas, there was all manner of settlements ranging from small camps of nomadic hunter-gathers to huge cities. Native peoples lived in seaport towns, trading centers, hunting camps, sacred precincts, agricultural research centers, farming villages, administrative centers, and just about anything else you can imagine. Our ancestors built timber framed longhouses, tipis, mud-brick apartment complexes, quarried stone cities, wickiups, hogans, bark walled longhouses, thatched homes, pit houses and dugout earth lodges.

In 1492, Tenochtitlan had a population rivaling the largest European cities of the day. The Inca Empire was larger than any in 15th century Europe. Staple crops — maize (corn), potatoes, sweet potatoes — the Inca people developed, from wild antecedents, came to feed peasants the world over in the ensuing centuries. The mound building cultures of the US mid-west were already legend and the Ancestral Pueblo people had dispersed along the upper Rio Grande, leaving the cities of Chaco canyon to fall into ruin.

The indigenous Americas and Americans were more complex and varied than Europe. Beware of generalizing from the narrow 19th century, tipi-dwelling, buckskin-clad dominant culture images of Native cultures.
i've had the opportunity to visit 'El Zocalo". The marketplace of the aztec empire in El Gran Tenochtitlan. Bought a pice of beadwork from a Huichol grandmother, among other things.
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:25 AM   #71
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There's no need to make fun of me.
I think you are mistaken Belgium with Austria or Switserland.We have no mountains and we don't wear lederhosen either.

You have seen that in a commercial, did you?
That's not to make fun of you. That is to show you our ignorance of other regions and other cultures. No matter how many books I read, or websites I visit, I will always have that romantic view of Europe (I imagine Belgium is near Germany) wearing lederhosen and blowing that silly horn. To me, that is the european equivalent of 'one with nature'.

Without physically visiting the region, I can only assume the culture. I would be wrong to sit behind a computer and tell somebody their history.
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


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Old 12-14-2017, 09:02 AM   #72
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Bear with this aging student of Euorpean art.... Is the light in Bruges really like the light in van Eyck paintings?

Light is powerful a player in the painter's work. You really don't understand Monet, Degas, Renoir, Cezanne or the other French Impressionists until you've seen the light in Paris, Giverny and the Cote d'Azur. Same with any other painter.

I'm babbling, LOL.
That's a difficult question.Never payed any attention to it.Sorry.
I like a beautiful painting but that's it.

The best way to find out is to come over here.I think Bruges is a piece of art on itself.You would love it here since you are a student of art.

Did you look at the pictures from the city?
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:11 AM   #73
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That's not to make fun of you. That is to show you our ignorance of other regions and other cultures. No matter how many books I read, or websites I visit, I will always have that romantic view of Europe (I imagine Belgium is near Germany) wearing lederhosen and blowing that silly horn. To me, that is the european equivalent of 'one with nature'.

Without physically visiting the region, I can only assume the culture. I would be wrong to sit behind a computer and tell somebody their history.
Well JD, that's the same feeling i have about your country in the past.
Please forgive me to be so ignorant.
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Old 12-14-2017, 01:15 PM   #74
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No matter how many books I read, or websites I visit, I will always have that romantic view of Europe (I imagine Belgium is near Germany) wearing lederhosen and blowing that silly horn. To me, that is the european equivalent of 'one with nature'.


Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany have common borders though the borders are today not what they once were.

Lederhosen are not all that familiar in the German speaking regions outside some local regions like Bavaria, Austria and South Tirol (Italy).

Schweinshaxe mit Sauerkraut (pork knuckle with sour red). Rheinischer Sauerbraten and Rheinisches Sauerkraut are more to my liking than Schweinshaxe.

Those "romantic views" are good for tourism, local identity and much more. You will find as many "tribes" in Europe than you have on turtle island but perhaps less spiritualized.


Beer ah, the best beer is German beer, the Rhenania Brauerei once won in almost very category when there was an European contest. OK, ok, that is more than 40 years ago. . There is good Belgian beer too.


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Without physically visiting the region, I can only assume the culture. I would be wrong to sit behind a computer and tell somebody their history.
Difficult to learn beyond a certain point about a different culture if you are restricted to books and the internet. I only know a fraction of Germany, the people, their customs, their believes, traditions, language,... The spoken German can be very difficult to understand depending on the region. I know some regions where a foreigner may think he isn't hearing German at all.

When my fathers mother spoke the language of her youth, I did not understand her. And the language of my aunt, living in the next village was different from grandma but I likewise I didn't understand her but grandma did. The written German language is consistent within the Federal Republic. The Austrian and Swiss German have differences. Can be surprising.

As long as we tell each other with good humor, everything is well.
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True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
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Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
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Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

Last edited by Broken Arrow; 12-14-2017 at 02:42 PM..
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Old 12-14-2017, 01:48 PM   #75
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...the Cherokees of Big Cove would disagree where you say they lived.
Isn't Mingo Falls around there?
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Old 12-15-2017, 05:19 AM   #76
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TDid you look at the pictures from the city?
Yes, I did. Beautiful looking place.
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Old 12-15-2017, 02:06 PM   #77
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Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany have common borders though the borders are today not what they once were.

Lederhosen are not all that familiar in the German speaking regions outside some local regions like Bavaria, Austria and South Tirol (Italy).

Schweinshaxe mit Sauerkraut (pork knuckle with sour red). Rheinischer Sauerbraten and Rheinisches Sauerkraut are more to my liking than Schweinshaxe.

Those "romantic views" are good for tourism, local identity and much more. You will find as many "tribes" in Europe than you have on turtle island but perhaps less spiritualized.


Beer ah, the best beer is German beer, the Rhenania Brauerei once won in almost very category when there was an European contest. OK, ok, that is more than 40 years ago. . There is good Belgian beer too.




Difficult to learn beyond a certain point about a different culture if you are restricted to books and the internet. I only know a fraction of Germany, the people, their customs, their believes, traditions, language,... The spoken German can be very difficult to understand depending on the region. I know some regions where a foreigner may think he isn't hearing German at all.

When my fathers mother spoke the language of her youth, I did not understand her. And the language of my aunt, living in the next village was different from grandma but I likewise I didn't understand her but grandma did. The written German language is consistent within the Federal Republic. The Austrian and Swiss German have differences. Can be surprising.

As long as we tell each other with good humor, everything is well.
And this is what we learn. We cannot learn another culture from a book. It would be foolish of me to say, "The europeans are one with nature", or, " The europeans smoke a peace pipe". I don't know anything of the the region. Likewise, I would show my ignorance if I tried to impress the Germans, Belgians or Neanderthals (just kidding. I don't know what they call Netherlandians) with my knowledge of their being.
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman
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Old 12-15-2017, 02:15 PM   #78
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Isn't Mingo Falls around there?
It's been about 30 years since I've been there. Mingo Falls was nearby. I was there in the capacity of Executive Director of a tribe in North Carolina. Also went on vacation there about 40 years ago. I didn't see any buffaloes there. Did see a tipi where you could take a pic with the chief (or is it cheif?). Beautiful area, the Blue Ridge Parkway and the Great Smoky Mountains.
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman

Last edited by Joe's Dad; 12-15-2017 at 04:51 PM..
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Old 12-15-2017, 03:34 PM   #79
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Likewise, I would show my ignorance if I tried to impress the Germans, Belgians or Neanderthals (just kidding. I don't know what they call Netherlandians) with my knowledge of their being.

LOL, we call the inhabitants of the Netherlands most often "Holländer" though we should call them "Niederländer". Nord- und Süd-Holland are comparable to a federal state as South Dakota or Hessen.

As to the Neanderthals, that is 45 minutes by car. LOl. There is some DNA left in us though the last of them vanished about 30.000 years ago. It is a nice valley near Düsseldorf where the remains once were found and there flows the creek Düssel. You almost do not notice that you are close two the state city of Nordrhein-Westfalen with about 650.000 people.
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Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
Black Elk

“Tell me, and I will listen.
Show me, and I will understand.
Involve me, and I will learn.”
Lakota Proverb

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
(Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)
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Old 12-15-2017, 05:38 PM   #80
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...Beautiful area, the Blue Ridge Parkway and the Great Smoky Mountains.
'Tis, 'tis. Thirty years ago, I did my undergrad work just over the mountains in a little town outside Knoxville. Fell in love with the area.

Second Thanksgiving I was there, my cousin and I rented a car, since neither of us had one. We went up over 441 through Newfound Gap into Cherokee. We hit about 100 ft of ice at the peak just on the TN side of the pass. My friend was from LA, she had never driven on ice and I wasn't old enough to drive the rental (and hadn't driven on ice much either). We kept sliding down the mountain, toward the guard rail (and a really nice several hundred foot drop). We finally crept over, with two wheels on the graveled shoulder about 6 inches from the guardrail.

Being sensible young ladies we decided to go back a different way. A much lower altitude way. With no maps -- in the pre-GPS days -- we drove all over hills and hollows, trying to stay below the snow line. We stumbled on Mingo Falls during that trip and ate a picnic lunch, of cold biscuits from the school cafeteria, at the trailhead. The falls were magical.

In all my trips to Arrowmont, I've only gotten back across the mountains to Cherokee once. It's so dang crowded during the summer you spend all your time in the mountains watching the bumper to bumper traffic :( This summer people in Gatlinburg told me that visitors to the city and the park were down because of the fires last year. Could have fooled me.
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