[Ndnsoldierboy]

Originally Posted by CandaePrincess

ummm...


CUZ WE'RE AWESOME!!!! And we got keen songs!!!!


got dang. *L* :P


*Hugs* NSB!

Thanx CP. I love the ole Nez Perce Songs.

[Spiritflight]

To be or not to be (awesome) said William Shake's Beer the white man while staring at his glass and thinking whether or not he sould sing tha song "Wha' shall we do with tha' drunken sailor"

[Selina]

Originally Posted by Forgottengermanwoman

Hm... I know it the other way around... many turkish people came to work in Germany during the 70's mainly men and they seemed to think german women are free to get, don't know the english word but the german is "freiwild" - so when I was a teen I often got kinda molested by those men and I disliked it. And since Germany always liked to be open for letting in all sorts of people to work and live - those men hardly ever married german women but had their spouses come after they got established. Now there are many many turkis people a whole society living in Germany and yes they practise their traditions and having lots of children trying to build their churches and german gov. says yes because otherwise they would stand in the bad light of being racists. Hum... and those germans, that like to keep a german country in a german way, not exactly the way that you mentioned about Gerhard, but just german way of life are immedeately called naz. So there are a lot of those kind of germans that I do not like, nazis, but others feel too a loss of german life style. The accuracy you call teutonic maybe is not teutonic but more like a prussian way but your Gerhard seems more or less like a person doing things in a naz.way? I don't know, since man, my ancestors are prussian and they were kind people.

After reading this thread I have the feeling to share my 2cts about it.

I am from Austria, which is a state adjacent to Germany.
When I was in the US some yers ago and I told people "I am from Austria" I heard mostly 2 responses:
1) Ahh, how is it going down under??? (they meant Australia)
2) Ahh, Austria, that part of Germany.

Anyway....

Thank you Forgottengermanwoman for your post about your experiences with turkish men.
I had the very same experiences as teenager.
It was terrible.

And still there are a lot of people from eastern europe who seek refuge here in Austria.
I don't know if their cultural heritage survives this way, but they try to keep to themselve most of the time. Some of them even refuse to learn german which is a big problem for their kids in school.
On the other hand I am daring to ask: "do young people still have the connection to their cultural heritage??"
I would like to answer this based on myself with a big MAYBE.
I grew up in the city with my grandparents. They loved to watch folk on the tv and listen to it.
I hated it.
I liked Rock and Pop much more.
Everything I had to learn about Austrian traditions and history in school
Today I find back to Austrian traditions, especially the crafts.
Maybe after my years of beadworking different styles I learned to appreciate the amount of work that is often necessary to do those pretty traditional crafts.
I still hate the music though ;-)

Anyway,
beadworking opened my eyes to native american culture and history.

And please forgive me here, when I say Native Americans.
I learned back then that the term Indian is tolerated but Native American is prefered (Ryan told me that who is Mandan-Hidatsa).

Since I learned much about the different areas and tribes through beadwork it then was a short way to PowWows.
Ryan told me that the powwow originated in the plains and that the dances there are "open to visitors and interested people - after invitation. The other dances normally no white man will see because they are kind of holy to us indians - those at a powwow we share".
That was the point when I started to design my own traditional buckskin outfit which took me years to complete. In those years I tried to learn as many as I could about the dances, their origins etc.

Then in 2002 I got to know Ernie and his daughter. They are Shushwap.
They came to Vienna to dance at schools and tell the children about their history. They asked me to join them dancing traditional which was a great honor to me, as you can imagine.
We did again the following years.

So as to the question "why do white people dress up and play indian":
First of all I want to state that I do not dress up and play indian.
As said before I have no tribal affiliation. But I have a deep respect for the native culture.
There may be a few people who think and act like me. But there are a lot others as well.
Why they do what they do I have no idea and I can't even think of.

I remember some years back there was a man from Japan on tv who danced the Schuhplattler and was yodeling which is also popular in some austrian folkmusic. He was really good at it.
Many people from Austria were upset saying things like "why is he dressing up" and "doesn't he have his own culture".
Sound familiar??
I for my part think he did a fantastic job especially when I take into account that not every Austrian is born with the talent of yodeling or the ability to learn it.

Just my 2 cents.........

[Spiritflight]

Originally Posted by Selina

After reading this thread I have the feeling to share my 2cts about it.

I am from Austria, which is a state adjacent to Germany.
When I was in the US some yers ago and I told people "I am from Austria" I heard mostly 2 responses:
1) Ahh, how is it going down under??? (they meant Australia)
2) Ahh, Austria, that part of Germany.

Anyway....

Thank you Forgottengermanwoman for your post about your experiences with turkish men.
I had the very same experiences as teenager.
It was terrible.

And still there are a lot of people from eastern europe who seek refuge here in Austria.
I don't know if their cultural heritage survives this way, but they try to keep to themselve most of the time. Some of them even refuse to learn german which is a big problem for their kids in school.
On the other hand I am daring to ask: "do young people still have the connection to their cultural heritage??"
I would like to answer this based on myself with a big MAYBE.
I grew up in the city with my grandparents. They loved to watch folk on the tv and listen to it.
I hated it.
I liked Rock and Pop much more.
Everything I had to learn about Austrian traditions and history in school
Today I find back to Austrian traditions, especially the crafts.
Maybe after my years of beadworking different styles I learned to appreciate the amount of work that is often necessary to do those pretty traditional crafts.
I still hate the music though ;-)

Anyway,
beadworking opened my eyes to native american culture and history.

And please forgive me here, when I say Native Americans.
I learned back then that the term Indian is tolerated but Native American is prefered (Ryan told me that who is Mandan-Hidatsa).

Since I learned much about the different areas and tribes through beadwork it then was a short way to PowWows.
Ryan told me that the powwow originated in the plains and that the dances there are "open to visitors and interested people - after invitation. The other dances normally no white man will see because they are kind of holy to us indians - those at a powwow we share".
That was the point when I started to design my own traditional buckskin outfit which took me years to complete. In those years I tried to learn as many as I could about the dances, their origins etc.

Then in 2002 I got to know Ernie and his daughter. They are Shushwap.
They came to Vienna to dance at schools and tell the children about their history. They asked me to join them dancing traditional which was a great honor to me, as you can imagine.
We did again the following years.

So as to the question "why do white people dress up and play indian":
First of all I want to state that I do not dress up and play indian.
As said before I have no tribal affiliation. But I have a deep respect for the native culture.
There may be a few people who think and act like me. But there are a lot others as well.
Why they do what they do I have no idea and I can't even think of.

I remember some years back there was a man from Japan on tv who danced the Schuhplattler and was yodeling which is also popular in some austrian folkmusic. He was really good at it.
Many people from Austria were upset saying things like "why is he dressing up" and "doesn't he have his own culture".
Sound familiar??
I for my part think he did a fantastic job especially when I take into account that not every Austrian is born with the talent of yodeling or the ability to learn it.

Just my 2 cents.........

Thank you for your long reply. Okay, I think it deserves respect when you put all that time into your work as you say...

That was the point when I started to design my own traditional buckskin outfit which took me years to complete

I have nothing against people from other countries living in Germany but when I go to live in a different country then it would be for the reason that I like their culture and would like to live there and not to put my own culture upon them. What for?

And then, being german born does not mean to me that I adjust to their ways. No, I am free to choose and rather stay alone than being engaged in something I do not feel same with.

Since I was a child I consider myself an outsider. So what? It happened when we moved and I got to a new school, bad kids there. And since I were 8 I felt connected to American NDN's - as that was the first time I got to know that they exsist. And before I often played with imaginary friends and they were like the way American NDN's appeared to me when I met them first. So, enough talk about myself on this part.

People can do whatever they like as long as it is not respectless or bad. I myself would not bead or do native amerian indian outfits unless I were part of them and maybe not even than because I guess I am too lazy for that.

I do not approve on Powwows white people or non NDN's do. Not ours. And if I get invited like I was when I stayed and lived with NDN's in an apartement in the States it was okay and I felt honored by them to make me part of it. They are my real life friends - physically speaking. Or.... huh...? - sorry, internet talks are prone for missunderstandings...

I am not wise - okay? I do not know any NDN's that live in Germany except my Exhubby but he is not in Germany anymore. Why the heck am I telling all this? I must be out of my mind, no I have been drinking a little, otherwise it's not bearable for me to continue living a life without NDN's anymore, but no I do not drink every day.

Now about the music you hate. Why? Some people like it some don't like it. If you prefer rock music then it's okay and let others enjoy whatever they are happy with. I like all kinds of music.

Powwows here and there - some NDN's oh no - it's like everywhere on this planet, some people like you some don't. Would I ever talk to anyone about native traditions and things that are not meant for non indians to know if I'd knew them? No.

I have something in my mind and if some NDN's know the same things then it's the same and no more to it. Either you know or you don't know. And I don't care if I am considered crazy by non NDN's or NDN's - it's all harmless. How can good things be bad?

I do not know how far you got involved with living with NDN's and it's not up to me to judge on anything. All my talk is my own perception, my own toughts. And sometimes I do not know if my thoughts are right or wrong, but does it matter? As long as they are right to me. Living in isolation is the best way for me to blend out all the noisy stuff that destroys goodness in the world as I can't change it anyway. Do you understand me? If not, okay. ~~ Livin inbetween worlds... ~~

It's not a crime if you do shoe platteln and jodle when you are not an Alp-Mensch. Okay, I don't have it with european or german or austrian culture, I am autark. Never mind.

Oh yes - sometimes American NDN's do that thing, coming to Europe and tell people about ~their~ ways. Okay - I just talked, more or less some kind of soul strip - huh? I do not know if it sounds strange, crazy, confusing but then, it does not matter what I have to say, does it? Thank you for reading my long reply.

[AmigoKumeyaay]

Achtung!
.
.

[Spiritflight]

- a better german expression for the rather dominant word "Achtung" would be: Guck mal or schau mal or sieh mal.

That word "Achtung" implies strict authority. Hm....

[Spiritflight]

Originally Posted by AmigoKumeyaay

Achtung!
.
.

A hunger strike? Wouldn't it be better when people stay healthy and alive to do anything?

[Spiritflight]

A german Powwow - hm... I don't know about that, says it's done for charity. No matter what, I think it looks rediculous when germans dress up like that.

Video Spot ITF 2013 - -

[AmigoKumeyaay]

Hausler-hof ? August 16 to 18, 2013


Powwow-Tanzer?

http://www.southernstars.de/old/ITF-...r-ITF-2013.pdf

[Spiritflight]

Originally Posted by AmigoKumeyaay

Hausler-hof ? August 16 to 18, 2013


Powwow-Tanzer?

http://www.southernstars.de/old/ITF-...r-ITF-2013.pdf

This is hobby-ists - like all of them - do they ever announce any dancers and drum groups? No. There is nothing written about that in their flyer just places you can eat at that dance and where you can stay and - oh well... dissapointing. As I said it's more like a show german hobbyists copying NDN's and presenting that to germans and other visitors with a note about doing some charity for some germans in need, children I think and some natives?

Here is a link to a german Powwow calendar - I wonder why they don't have it in english language...

Startseite ? Powwow-Kalender

[AmigoKumeyaay]

Thank you very much!

Well, too late for THIS year.

Next year...in August

October would be better, or late September

[Spiritflight]

You are welcome.

[milehighsalute]

Originally Posted by Spiritflight

Since I was a child I consider myself an outsider. So what? It happened when we moved and I got to a new school, bad kids there. And since I were 8 I felt connected to American NDN's - as that was the first time I got to know that they exsist. And before I often played with imaginary friends and they were like the way American NDN's appeared to me when I met them first. So, enough talk about myself on this part.

this is what i cannot wrap my head around......are we not just a normal people or are we something exotic to an impressionable 8yr old child from across the world? that is the ONLY reason people feel "connected" to us......the next step is attaching themselves to us, or rather to their ideas of what they want us to be......and its easy to attach themselves to fantasy indians born out of romanticism....so even then your exposure to us would have only been to a few select tribes in a fictional way that only reflects the anglo idea of us ...i aint never heard of any white people claiming to be a hualapai medicine man, or decended from a washo chief, or a kaw princess......so were you feeing connected to us as a whole? good as well as bad? if so then do you feel connected to the high school janitor in rapid city? how about the wino on the streets of gallup? maybe some random costruction worker in oklahoma? were you learning about THEIR stories at the age of 8?

[Spiritflight]

Originally Posted by milehighsalute

this is what i cannot wrap my head around......are we not just a normal people or are we something exotic to an impressionable 8yr old child from across the world? that is the ONLY reason people feel "connected" to us......the next step is attaching themselves to us, or rather to their ideas of what they want us to be......and its easy to attach themselves to fantasy indians born out of romanticism....so even then your exposure to us would have only been to a few select tribes in a fictional way that only reflects the anglo idea of us ...i aint never heard of any white people claiming to be a hualapai medicine man, or decended from a washo chief, or a kaw princess......so were you feeing connected to us as a whole? good as well as bad? if so then do you feel connected to the high school janitor in rapid city? how about the wino on the streets of gallup? maybe some random costruction worker in oklahoma? were you learning about THEIR stories at the age of 8?

so were you feeing connected to us as a whole?

When I was 8 I have seen a film how bad NDN's got treated by the non Nnd's and I cried and I felt the urge to be a friend to the NDN's and to be a good spirit in mind for them NDN's on a whole. Now I don't and never got treated right by whites. Maybe a few have been good to me. And if NDN's may not like me, okay, I still can't leave what I feel. And I live kinda isolated. So what? I had my share of good and bad people. No matter which ethnic background they are having. I just go by who's good to me and those are just a few. I am tired of being friendly with anybody who turns out just to be a jerk. If you don't understand what I am saying... well... I can't explain further and if nothing else works for me I keep to myself and live a sole live.

[LakotaPrincess1]

i was there at the Hausler-hof ''PowWow'' 2012 in bavaria
and it was so bad,
no idea of real powwows,a bad MC,
the people there are
totally ignorant and very disrespectful..it is more a Europe -Trapper/Indian Hobbyists/ -dreamer event

[Spiritflight]

Originally Posted by LakotaPrincess1

i was there at the Hausler-hof ''PowWow'' 2012 in bavaria
and it was so bad,
no idea of real powwows,a bad MC,
the people there are
totally ignorant and very disrespectful..it is more a Europe -Trapper/Indian Hobbyists/ -dreamer event

Exactly - and they probably would kick me off their grounds if I'd say to them it's not the real thing -

[WhoMe]

So's do German people think Indians are handsome and beautiful?

[Spiritflight]

Originally Posted by WhoMe

So's do German people think Indians are handsome and beautiful?

Those germans that are interested in NDN's surely do think that. Infact they adore NDN's and their culture or at least what they think what's their culture. I don't know about those wannabe's copying NDN traditional ways or what they think it is... but they probably do think it's a beautiful culture or they wouldn't be so obsessed about NDN's.

Whenever I talked during my life with a few germans about the existence of NDN's and heard what they said, it showed their affinity. Well, I have not talke to many. I found germans are hippocrates - when my Exhubby was living with me in Germany, they thought he was oriental - never thought of him being NDN, since germans hardly ever see NDN's in Germany more orientals though.


Okay, some weird thing happened to me in east Germany when he and me did a day's trip to visit a Castle or Palast... I once told another east german person about how the sales women in that place, what comes close to 7 Eleven in the States - did not sell him something, I was away for a few minutes and when I went to that shop to join him, they were stacking up items on shelves - I reconned the situation and said loud in english to him:

Are they treating you bad? Those women turned around with a big shocked look in their faces as if someone had hit them with a cane stick or sumpt'n - I said to him - let's go - without trying to buy anything there... - well when a few years later I told another east german person this story - she said - what???

Those NDN's always get protected by security guards in Germany. - So I said, no, he's my hubby and she wouldn't believe it. She had the picture in mind that if NDN's come to Germany, than only for cultural reasons, events, whatever - being celebrities of some kind that get security guards put on their side - it didn't occur to her that NDN's do travel to Germany too just for fun if they feel like it. Sorry for the long reply going off topic.

[xTekno]

I really wanted to go to a German Powwow while I was in GA, so I went to Helen. Sorry, no powwows there!

[Spiritflight]

Originally Posted by Ta'neeszahnii Techno

I really wanted to go to a German Powwow while I was in GA, so I went to Helen. Sorry, no powwows there!

You should come to Germany then and get entertained by those who practize hobby-powwows.