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Old 05-13-2009, 07:58 PM   #81
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How else are you going to tell if they are Indian enough? If they get per cap, then it's pretty much assured that they are Indian enough. The Tribes go thru vigorous background checks to assure than anyone who gets a per cap, is Indian enough.

You see those dancers out there kicking real high, jumping around, really shaking what they got, having a good time? Those are the ones who just got their per cap. The ones with the long faces, all sullen, and Holy looking, those are the ones with no per cap. Some of those guys have great big trust funds, and they are just waiting to get their sweaty little hands on that stuff. The others, not so much, dancing, sullenly, is all they got. No way to tell if they are Indian enough, no per cap. They could be Hollanders, for all we know, wearing their wooden shoes when they are not dancing. I think I saw a pair of those wooden shoes, holding someone's seat while they were dancing.
For contest or day money, I can see having a tribal ID card to get the cash. For anything else, we have always let the wanabi into our circle in the spirit of friendship. Why stop now? Those wanabi spend cash at powwow!

Would a large hand stamp on the wanabi cheeks help you out to tell who is real and who isn't?

Might help with snagging too, depending on which cheek was stamped. It can get dark out there!
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Old 05-13-2009, 08:24 PM   #82
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Old 05-13-2009, 08:53 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions View Post
If your idea of dance on the basis of per capita was a law, it would effectly shut down almost every powwow east of the Mississippi river. What about the tribal members that don't get any money? Should they not be allowed to dance?
There's a lot of tribes that don't give per cap. Mine doesn't - we decided a while back in a tribal vote not to do do per cap, rather to pump money from tribal enterprises into services for our citizens. That's why we have a great range of programs for our people, services for our little ones and elders, and a state of the art hospital that will rival what you find in a major metro area.

But tell me I can't dance cuz I don't get per cap... I don't think so.
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:36 PM   #84
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I have a funny feeling that his first post regarding the per caps was probably sarcasim, but if it is not then I say that the argument holds no water.
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:51 PM   #85
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hey I spent a long time looking for a trust fund baby who was an ndn... I never found one.... are there really trust fund ndns????
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:54 PM   #86
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Not that I ever heard of, lol.
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Old 05-13-2009, 11:49 PM   #87
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hey I spent a long time looking for a trust fund baby who was an ndn... I never found one.... are there really trust fund ndns????
There sure are "trust fund indians" I'm one! You can trust me with your funds! Honest Injun!
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Old 05-13-2009, 11:54 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthofAda View Post
There's a lot of tribes that don't give per cap. Mine doesn't - we decided a while back in a tribal vote not to do do per cap, rather to pump money from tribal enterprises into services for our citizens. That's why we have a great range of programs for our people, services for our little ones and elders, and a state of the art hospital that will rival what you find in a major metro area.

But tell me I can't dance cuz I don't get per cap... I don't think so.
Don't blame me for gtbdave's idea!
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:10 AM   #89
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There sure are "trust fund indians" I'm one! You can trust me with your funds! Honest Injun!
You bet your bippy there are trust fund Indians out there, I'm up to my neck in them. Most of them related to me. I don't know that they dance at pow wows though, maybe they figure they are not Indian enough, or just too darn rich. The last trust fund Indian I talked to was agnonizing over which fancy college to attend, I think the idea of dancing was not even on her mind. It must be terrible to have those kinds of problems, I can remember wondering if I could get into, or afford to go, to any college.

I'd think that anyone who did not have a trust fund, or per cap, might not be Indian enough to dance. Any dark complexioned person could don the regalia and pull off some kind of scam. Even DNA tests can be unreliable, remember OJ? What we need is absolute assurance, I wouldn't want to be at some pow wow, and find my self dancing with a bunch of Poles, doing some kind of Polka thing.
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:56 AM   #90
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You bet your bippy there are trust fund Indians out there, I'm up to my neck in them. Most of them related to me. I don't know that they dance at pow wows though, maybe they figure they are not Indian enough, or just too darn rich. The last trust fund Indian I talked to was agnonizing over which fancy college to attend, I think the idea of dancing was not even on her mind. It must be terrible to have those kinds of problems, I can remember wondering if I could get into, or afford to go, to any college.

I'd think that anyone who did not have a trust fund, or per cap, might not be Indian enough to dance. Any dark complexioned person could don the regalia and pull off some kind of scam. Even DNA tests can be unreliable, remember OJ? What we need is absolute assurance, I wouldn't want to be at some pow wow, and find my self dancing with a bunch of Poles, doing some kind of Polka thing.
I will tell you this Dave. The trust funds do get out of hand. When young people finally get their hands on them, they usually are spent on nothing but a good time. Very few use the money for education to benifit themselves. Kudos to the agnonizing girl! She is trying to make something of herself.

Like I said before. Anyone can dance at powow if you have Native blood. But if you are going for the contests or day money, I feel you must prove that you are NDN with proper ID. That's how I feel.

Big difference between powwow and Native ceremony. Native ceremony should be locked up tight. Powwow is a gathering of all people! Big difference!
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Old 05-14-2009, 02:20 PM   #91
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[QUOTE=gtbdave;1303730]...Even DNA tests can be unreliable, remember OJ? ...QUOTE]

Well the thing with the OJ case was the fact that the investigators, through improper procedure, contaminated the evidence. DNA testing today is very exact with little error.
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Old 05-14-2009, 03:46 PM   #92
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[QUOTE=Toolbox;1303820]
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Originally Posted by gtbdave View Post
...Even DNA tests can be unreliable, remember OJ? ...QUOTE]

Well the thing with the OJ case was the fact that the investigators, through improper procedure, contaminated the evidence. DNA testing today is very exact with little error.

Still, there's still that, "shadow of a doubt", and little can be left to chance when you are talking about dancing an Intertribal at a pow wow.
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:07 PM   #93
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I don't see how the .01% to .1% (depending on the type of test) of an inaccuracy can be of such a worry.
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:09 PM   #94
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I will tell you this Dave. The trust funds do get out of hand. When young people finally get their hands on them, they usually are spent on nothing but a good time. Very few use the money for education to benifit themselves. Kudos to the agnonizing girl! She is trying to make something of herself.

Like I said before. Anyone can dance at powow if you have Native blood. But if you are going for the contests or day money, I feel you must prove that you are NDN with proper ID. That's how I feel.

Big difference between powwow and Native ceremony. Native ceremony should be locked up tight. Powwow is a gathering of all people! Big difference!
Oh, I don't know. There sure are alot of college grads around the Tribe now, more lawyers, doctors, and other professionals, more than you can shake a stick at. Alot more than there used to be. I don't think any of my parent's generation were college grads, and none of the Grandparent's generation, and very few of my own generation are college grads. Maybe the exceptional, now it's getting to be commonplace, and I think per cap plays a big role in that.

Who's to determine who is of proper blood? What criterion do you use? What can be trusted? It's not dna, or even cdib, as some Tribes use as little as 1/164th blood to be a Tribal member. Per cap can be trusted, Tribes don't give out per cap on a whim. Alot of the disgruntled, may not be as much Indian as some they choose to ban, at least they have nothing to prove their authenticity, they could be pulling some kind of scam, just to dance in an Intertribal, or worse yet, get some kind of prize or trophy in some kind of contest dance. I seen this one dancer, she looked just like this Czechoslovakian girl I used to know in Europe.
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:40 PM   #95
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Who's to determine who is of proper blood? What criterion do you use?
That's up to each tribe. Not my place to say. However I can tell you that I have seen many with very little blood walk the path much better then a full blood. Who is more NDN as in state of mind? Do you deserve per capa just by birth? How about those who live the life with with very little blood. Are they to be discarded?

Some tribes have a clause in the per capa that states if you leave the reservation, you leave the money behind. So what do you do? Go out to seek your fame and fortune or stay and become nothing living on the system?

Disclaimer: (My views are for the sake of debate and my not reflect my true feelings)
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:18 PM   #96
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Could it also be possible to fraud the tribes out of per caps? I mean fraud is actually really easy to do, especially with most of the population having access to computers.
I read every now and then stories of tribes being frauded out of money on ICT, either by their own or by outsiders. It would be less proof of if someone is NDN or not if you went by per caps rather than physical DNA that is highly accurate. In regards to scamming:
I was just reading an article earlier today on Yahoo talking about ATM skimmers, completely easy to make and they are right in front of your face and moat people don't even realise it.
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Old 05-15-2009, 10:40 AM   #97
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Could it also be possible to fraud the tribes out of per caps? I mean fraud is actually really easy to do, especially with most of the population having access to computers.
I read every now and then stories of tribes being frauded out of money on ICT, either by their own or by outsiders. It would be less proof of if someone is NDN or not if you went by per caps rather than physical DNA that is highly accurate. In regards to scamming:
I was just reading an article earlier today on Yahoo talking about ATM skimmers, completely easy to make and they are right in front of your face and moat people don't even realise it.

What are you guys talking about, dancing in Intertribals at Pow Wows, or about who should get per cap? Seems like you digress a bit. I am not into re-writing Tribal Constitutions and Tribal laws, that's a bit above my pay grade. Being off Reservation, I don't even get to vote. I have no idea how other Tribes handle their finances, nor do I care. If you don't get per cap, and resent Tribes that do, that's sounds more like some sort of personal problem. I guess Tribal Members vote for their Chairman, and their Council, and, for the most part, support the results of their elections, and the decisions made by their leadership. Per Cap is not mandatory in our Tribe, if you don't support it, you don't have to take it, and I guess there are Tribals members who don't take their per cap payments, alot of it is in trust funds, some elect to save all of it for retirement, in trust funds. I guess the law says that if you can prove that you are a Tribal member, and a descendent of those on certain rolls you are entitled to per cap. It's really not an option of the Tribe, it's mandated by law, Federal law, once it is included in the Constitution.

As far as any skimming, the Tribe has a legal department, and financial management capable of taking precautions, prosecuting, as well as protecting the millions that they do administer, sometimes hiring some of the most respected financial management agencies in the World. If they are going to be ripped off, alot of people in the financial sector on Wall Street are going to be ripped also, sort of like a Bernie Madoff.

Getting back to Intertribal dancing, you still have no way to ensure that all dancers on the arena floor are ndn enough. No absolute method, no Ayatollah of the Dance. Even though you may like dna testing, dna testing is not administered to dancers as they enter the arena. In short, anybody could be dancing out there, you have no absolute way of knowing. You may have a system where the lesser ndns are dancing, and those legitimate Tribal members, with per cap, are discouraged from dancing. In some cases, even denying that certain known Tribal members are not really Tribal members, even though the Tribe insists that they are Tribal members, and the individual insists that they are Tribal members, as well as the laws and Tribal Constitution recognizing that they are Tribal members. At best, it's a hit or miss system that you have, with no real hard and fast rules, and no way that anyone can really determine how authentic the whole dance may be.
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Old 05-22-2009, 06:57 PM   #98
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Oh, I don't know. There sure are alot of college grads around the Tribe now, more lawyers, doctors, and other professionals, more than you can shake a stick at. Alot more than there used to be. I don't think any of my parent's generation were college grads, and none of the Grandparent's generation, and very few of my own generation are college grads. Maybe the exceptional, now it's getting to be commonplace, and I think per cap plays a big role in that.

Who's to determine who is of proper blood? What criterion do you use? What can be trusted? It's not dna, or even cdib, as some Tribes use as little as 1/164th blood to be a Tribal member. Per cap can be trusted, Tribes don't give out per cap on a whim. Alot of the disgruntled, may not be as much Indian as some they choose to ban, at least they have nothing to prove their authenticity, they could be pulling some kind of scam, just to dance in an Intertribal, or worse yet, get some kind of prize or trophy in some kind of contest dance. I seen this one dancer, she looked just like this Czechoslovakian girl I used to know in Europe.
Isn't 1/164th like nothing though???
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Old 05-22-2009, 07:10 PM   #99
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What are you guys talking about, dancing in Intertribals at Pow Wows, or about who should get per cap? Seems like you digress a bit. I am not into re-writing Tribal Constitutions and Tribal laws, that's a bit above my pay grade. Being off Reservation, I don't even get to vote. I have no idea how other Tribes handle their finances, nor do I care. If you don't get per cap, and resent Tribes that do, that's sounds more like some sort of personal problem. I guess Tribal Members vote for their Chairman, and their Council, and, for the most part, support the results of their elections, and the decisions made by their leadership. Per Cap is not mandatory in our Tribe, if you don't support it, you don't have to take it, and I guess there are Tribals members who don't take their per cap payments, alot of it is in trust funds, some elect to save all of it for retirement, in trust funds. I guess the law says that if you can prove that you are a Tribal member, and a descendent of those on certain rolls you are entitled to per cap. It's really not an option of the Tribe, it's mandated by law, Federal law, once it is included in the Constitution.

As far as any skimming, the Tribe has a legal department, and financial management capable of taking precautions, prosecuting, as well as protecting the millions that they do administer, sometimes hiring some of the most respected financial management agencies in the World. If they are going to be ripped off, alot of people in the financial sector on Wall Street are going to be ripped also, sort of like a Bernie Madoff.

Getting back to Intertribal dancing, you still have no way to ensure that all dancers on the arena floor are ndn enough. No absolute method, no Ayatollah of the Dance. Even though you may like dna testing, dna testing is not administered to dancers as they enter the arena. In short, anybody could be dancing out there, you have no absolute way of knowing. You may have a system where the lesser ndns are dancing, and those legitimate Tribal members, with per cap, are discouraged from dancing. In some cases, even denying that certain known Tribal members are not really Tribal members, even though the Tribe insists that they are Tribal members, and the individual insists that they are Tribal members, as well as the laws and Tribal Constitution recognizing that they are Tribal members. At best, it's a hit or miss system that you have, with no real hard and fast rules, and no way that anyone can really determine how authentic the whole dance may be.
The system is designed on a tribe by tribe basis. Each tribe is considered a sovereign nation. So different rules apply to each. Each tribe also has different treaties the federal government cheats them out of. No two are the same. The federal government does not cheat each tribe the same. Sounds like discrimination to me.

Maybe the arena director's job should be to check your CIB card at the circle opening. Just like the clubs. "May I see your ID please?" No ID, No Entry! Is that what you want?
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Old 05-23-2009, 11:07 AM   #100
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The system is designed on a tribe by tribe basis. Each tribe is considered a sovereign nation. So different rules apply to each. Each tribe also has different treaties the federal government cheats them out of. No two are the same. The federal government does not cheat each tribe the same. Sounds like discrimination to me.

Maybe the arena director's job should be to check your CIB card at the circle opening. Just like the clubs. "May I see your ID please?" No ID, No Entry! Is that what you want?
Sounds like sovereignity. Each Tribe elects their own leadership.

Some board posters insist that some CDIB card carriers are not Indian enough to dance. They have superceded Tribal Governments, Tribal laws, Tribal Constitutions.
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