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Old 09-30-2014, 05:29 PM   #1
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Southwest "mexican" history after Cortes

There was not Aztec Empire. No mayan empire. NO empires.

THe mexica had a confederation. An alliance. ANd they had rivals.

THe triple alliance is well known. but the confederation didn't just include them. Nor was it all about power. There was trade and business involved.

It was vast. Members included other tribes far into the 'southwest' territory.
SOme mistakenly feel that if somebody says they were members of the confederation, that the person saying this is also saying they were also 'mexicas' and get angry. THis is not so. The other members were natives SOVEREIGN tribes.

Well, cortes went into Teotihuacan, with other native allies, and waged war and got beat and kicked out.
HOWEVER, the natives acquired small pox. when this happened, all the natives lay dying in the streets and cortes waltzed in and took the city.

THe natives, including the spaniards allies, were then forced into slavery. Similar to what happened decades later in north america when Natives sided with the U.S. Cavalry, and when natives sided with british and french troops. In the end , they were betrayed. This was one of the first betrayals.

ANyhow, many natives were forced into slavery. Many escaped and went north.
WHERE DID THEY GO?
many people do not like to ask this question. WHERE DID THEY GO?

THey went to live with natives in the north.

Many natives who lived in the 'spanish' territories were forced into slavery, forced into having mestizo children, forced into christianity, forced into marriages, forced into the spanish military, forced into everything.

similarly, decades later, natives in the north would suffer the same thing by the british and french christians.

by this time, many natives in the 'spanish' territories had already had time to assimilate.
Mistakenly, many of these natives were just termed "mexicans'. which was incorrect. Having a spanish culture forced on you does not make a native mexican all of a sudden.

Are the north american tribes "american" ? simnply because the brits forced themselves on them?
No. Nor are they canadians because the french forced themselves upon them.

WE are not spanish, mexican, american, or canadians.

Now some people during this time looked for a way to make a living and joined workeforces. Traveled around the lands into other natives territories, and brought their ways with them.

From aztecs bringing their dances to california, and nevada, etc, to Lakotas bringing pows wows and sweat lodges into chumash lands in california.

Some native tribes also decided to voluntarily join the foreigners school system, the military, and become christians .

This has created a problem.
THe foreighners school system didn't teach them true history, and didn't teach them at all about other nations across turtle island. Well not the true history.
All the while, although their tribes were intact, christianity would change their tribes true nature.

Because we entered their institutions, we became THEM.

not only did we make a living for ourselves, but we took on their beliefs, the good and the bad. EVEN their institutions racism. SIne tribes eveb acquired black slaves.

INstead of having understandings and patience with the other tribes that were also messed with, even 200 years before others, they jump on the bandwagon of 'patriots' and school systems and call 'mexican' natives descendants fakes.

Natives north, south, and central, all share a similar history.
but some are at different stages of the colonization and assimilation processes.

If we do not learn about what happened to the natives in 'mexico' and the carribean islands, who were the first to be hit, then we will fail to learn about the stages of the processes and see where WE ain OUR tribes are at today in the stages of these processes. AND THEN WE will all end up the same way that those first tribes who were hit ended up ....
disconnected. Gang infested. culturally changed. etc

Learn 'mexican' history and puerto rican history. THEY were first to be hit.
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Old 09-30-2014, 08:38 PM   #2
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There are 'Tribes' in Mexico??? I know there are over 500 identified tribes in the United States. How many identified tribes are there in Mexico?

'ANyhow, many natives were forced into slavery. Many escaped and went north.
WHERE DID THEY GO?
many people do not like to ask this question. WHERE DID THEY GO?

THey went to live with natives in the north.'

This is the same lame excuse the white people use when they want to claim Indian. BTW Call someone from Mexico 'Indio' and you've picked yourself a fight.

So how tribes from the United States went 'SOUTH'? I don't think everybody went north.

'Are the north american tribes "american" ? simnply because the brits forced themselves on them?
No. Nor are they canadians because the french forced themselves upon them.

WE are not spanish, mexican, american, or canadians.'

Take away the geopolitical lines and still you have different cultures just by demographics. The jaguar warrior is not the same as the Cheyenne Dog Soldier. Take someone who speaks Nahuatl and put them in the cold regions of the uppermost part of the continent and they will not be able to communicate with someone who speaks Cree.


To lump Aztec Dancers with Chicken dancers because they have to 'make a living' is anogolous to saying (insert race here) people and (insert race here) people need to procreate in order to keep civilization alive.

What it seems you are trying to do is justify why Mexicans have dreamcatchers on the mirrors.
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Old 09-30-2014, 09:43 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koyoteh View Post
WE are not spanish, mexican, american, or canadians......

Because we entered their institutions, we became THEM.
WTF are you then?

You sound Mexican.

I know a few Mexican natives who speak their native languages, who are in touch with whats left of their culture BEFORE occupation.

They don't spew this garbage.
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Old 10-01-2014, 02:17 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gilisi View Post
WTF are you then?

You sound Mexican.

I know a few Mexican natives who speak their native languages, who are in touch with whats left of their culture BEFORE occupation.

They don't spew this garbage.
yeah its usually college chicanos......koyoteh i patiently read all of your threads on newagefraud and tried to learn.......but much of the aztlanisa garbage is just that....garbage

the myth of aztlan seems to be more of an american fantasy of americans of mexican descent that are lost and looking for something.......

if there is to be a bridge between the peoples mexicans need to realize that its the year 2014 and acknowledge the border is gonna exist whether they recognize it or not

if they want to be accepted in the powwow world they have to learn that they cant show up expecting to dance and even enter grand entry then go home talking crap about veterans andsaying horrible things about those ndns who served......and dont act like you never seen it or heard it

and most of all.....concede.....concede to your hobbyism.....

and i never met an apache who did danza.......just a few chicanos who have an apache princess in their family lore who cant prove it....and go around claiming they are apache

you know how the top 3 tribes claimed by whites are cherokee, lakota and blackfoot? the top 3 claimed by chicanos are apache, yaqui and navajo......and im not saying they are all lying....just most

and if they were in touch with their apache heritage they would not be doing danza

trust me on that.......i KNOW apaches well lol.......they are very proud of what they are and dont seek out danza
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Old 10-01-2014, 02:29 AM   #5
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for the record.......i never once said alot of mexican people arent indian.......the majority of mecico has ndn stock......no one denies that

they are lost though......the ones who didnt grow up in native societies at least

they are native if blood.....maybe even of heart (ha.....i sound like a new ager) but they are not native of mindset......they have the same good ol european values.......but natives dont think it makes them less of natives

some of us just get mad at the mixture of politics and the pushiness and claim of a birthright

no better way to turn a native off than being pushy

but i think some of us are more upset with the MISINFORMATION about their history

mexicas like to claim sw united states.......are you saying that all the tribes here in the SW didnt exist? or did they pay tribute? or were they such a non-factor your ancestors just walked around unimpeded? ......please enlighten me.......and lets compare that to the respective tribes of whatevr are you choose.....i would love to hear their version.........

truth be told my tribe kicked some aztec azz.....look up the tiguex wars

i just wonder why neo-aztecs always want to drag north american indians in their disputes with the US
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Old 10-01-2014, 04:11 AM   #6
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Here @koyoteh... this might help you begin to fill the gaping hole in your research.

What is the legal status of American Indian and Alaska Native tribes?
Article 1, Section 8 of the United States Constitution vests Congress, and by extension the Executive and Judicial branches of our government, with the authority to engage in relations with the tribes, thereby firmly placing tribes within the constitutional fabric of our nation. When the governmental authority of tribes was first challenged in the 1830's, U. S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall articulated the fundamental principle that has guided the evolution of federal Indian law to the present: That tribes possess a nationhood status and retain inherent powers of self-government.

Indian Affairs | FAQs
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Old 10-01-2014, 02:09 PM   #7
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ya didn't read

anyhow, doesn't seem you guys actually read it.

if you did you would of read that it doesn't follow the center point of your aztlanista rhetoric nor does it talk about hate or taking lands.

it is an emigration story, a story of how day of the dead came to be, what happeneed in tenochtitlan/mexico city, and then what happened after.

How people feel about what happened after is something else.
I have read all your guys threads and even there they avoid everyones experiences and stories , of which there are many, and only speak of what we call "mexica-nazis" and you call "aztlanistas". aztlan is an emigration story not a story meant to take lands


NOw what i did write is the opposite of what you spew all over the internet. THe aztlan story gives no ones rights to claim or retake the southwest BUT THE OPPOSITE.

Many natives do have the right to say, HEY DON"T TALK ABOUT RETAKING THE SOUTHWEST, WE STILL LIVE THERE AND ITS OUR, but not for the reasons you give. Which you don't really give any.

The mexicas LEFT the southwest tribes, which means they gave up rights hundreds of years ago.

BUT how would you know this if you don't ever listen to the story?
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Old 10-01-2014, 02:11 PM   #8
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legal status?
laws?

i talk about an old native story and you bring up colonial laws?

doesn't make sense.

but might make sense when i know lots of you dudes who been writing about aztlanistas on facebook and elsewhere here, are patriots and military.

and actually non natives.

in fact, so fact i have only come across one real native.
can't blame people for not knowing the stories and histories of other tribes.

of which so many natives don't know each others stuff.
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Old 10-01-2014, 02:14 PM   #9
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lost natives and disconnected natives are still natives.

yes they can be frustrating beccause of the colonial mindset they acquire.

but the question becomes one of what to do about them.

are they to be thrown away or helped back to a native mindset? and by whom?

what will happen if they are not helped?

what happened when they were not helped?

oh you mean you didn't help them?

and now you complain?

those who did not and do not and will not help are as much to blame for the lost natives being lost as the colonist invaders are.

if you are not offereing solutions , constructive solutions, then you are part of the problems. ANd considering that most of you are usually christian patriots, it makes sense.
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Old 10-01-2014, 02:20 PM   #10
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now you dudes don't know me. and i really don't know you.


however, i do look into who writes all the aztlanista stuff.

those mexicas that write about retaking, are part of sub groups. they exist but they are a minority.

there are plenty of other groups that exist that love the aztlan story, but not as a point of anything other than the origins of Day of the Dead. we got other things to worry about.

who writes all the anti aztlanista threads are native patriots, military and ex military. And many are of tribes that although they are intact and survived the european invasion, their tribes sold out right away and became soldiers , henchmen for the u.s military. They also became christians.

SO what we see are tribes who hate on natives who are lost and disconnected, because the individuals can't speak their language and/or can't even remember their tribe, because of rape, slavery, and murder. YET, ignore the fact that their tribes are lost and disconnected and conquered because their tribes assimilated into the enemies military and churches.

doesn't make sense.

well it does if we look at you as government agents stirring up natives to hate on each other, and stirring up natives to stop other natives from being reconnected and becoming strong again.
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Old 10-01-2014, 02:25 PM   #11
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sw tribes still and always have existed

if you read the story, i said that the southwest tribes exist, existed, and still exist.


but i also say that the mexicas came from the southwest tribes.

i also say that the southwest tribes carry some of the same origins.

THis isn't a basis for reclaiming lands. As some mexica nazis would like to say.
but there aren't just mexica nazis out there.

There are native nazis of all types. of which they like to attack other tribes, tear other natives down, and uphold only their own tribe. usually they are card weilding who really like to wave their cards. and usually christians and patriots.
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Old 10-01-2014, 02:35 PM   #12
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Neo natives

if you want to talk neo anything, don't just pick out the 'neo-aztecs'.

there are NEO-Natives of all tribes and areas.

and there are natives who been kicked out of their places.

and there are natives who got stuck away from home.

and there are refugees.

and yes there are natives who are fighting their governments.

IF YOU HAVE NOT BEEN IN TOUCH WITH THESE STRUGGLES but been busy elsewhere ( like maybe in the army ) you would not have been around to see the relationships that were made between U.S. and Canadian and mexican natives AND chicanos aka the disconnected natives.

you just would not have been around to see it happen.

or seen how it happened.

OR what they all did together. And why SO MANY NATIVE TRIBES ACCEPT THE CHICANO for their aid.

in return, they helped the chicano too and became family.

HOWEVER, the chicano aided the natives who already had struggles. and they were struggles that were nowhere close to patriotic.
So the chicano helped them. No they did not create the struggles. THEY JOINED THE STRUGGLES.

of which i do not see many tribes doing. IN fact i do not see any tribes joining the struggle.
Let me use the reference you gave up there. THE LEGAL REFERENCE of how a tribe is a LEGAL TRIBE.
HOW MANY legal tribal councils are actually supporting their peoples struggles?

Why do their peoples seek the aid of outsiders like chicanos?
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Old 10-01-2014, 02:41 PM   #13
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where ya from?

who you meet, how they talk, what they experience, what they do, etc....all depends on where you are and who you meet there.

on your side of the world things are the way they are.

on my side, very different.

THe city is an urban jungle where so many peoples exist side by side even if its dysfunctional.

So yes, we do have apaches and chumash and others who do danza.
Lakotas tried it, but it was too hard they said.

yaquis too. but yaquis are everywhere.
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Old 10-01-2014, 02:46 PM   #14
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danza

no matter what people say about aztec dance, when its negative, they never give a real reason. At least not a reason based on knowledge.

I even hear that old " i know someone from mexico and they don't like it" stuff but even these messengers never give anything more than that.

its because they don't know the history of the dance. and they don't wnat to know.

If they did, if you did, then you would talk about how you feel so and so was not right about what they did. OR how so and so, had a point but...
or i understand, but that not their peoples way , kind of statement.


none of that is ever said. because ya don't know.

its easy to find out, but you don't want to.


All you have to do is ask. SO many do know the dance history and how it got here.

they do know about what happened and how things got our of hand too.
yes i said it. some things have gotten out of hand.

but how and why and where and when?
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Old 10-01-2014, 02:52 PM   #15
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disconnected

one bro who wasn't always a bro, once used the term on me "disconnected" . I ended up liking that term.

lots of natives exist who are disconnected.

they are either completely unaware of what tribes they come from, and may be completely europeanized.

and others may know they come from an intact tribe, but are not in touch with their tribe for whatever reasons.

and some are and just don't want to be. OFten because their tribe sold out long ago by joining the military and becoming christians.

I met many natives who i thought were chicanos but were apaches who were far from home, or yaquis whos family traveled all over, and they don't want to go back to christian families.

and many who been here so long away from their families because of work and just end up out of touch because of that.

I meet them all the time.

it becomes only natural for all of us to end up grouping up. ITs an effort not to lose our minds and ways. Even if its your friends way. THey are you friend. You support them. THey ask for your help. You say yes. THey feel better. THen they do the same for you. Its not exploitation. Its friends helping friends keep their sanity.
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Old 10-01-2014, 02:57 PM   #16
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choices

When you have a bunch of lost disconnected natives running around wanting a side to choose, wanting their culture back, but not having a clue of where to turn, CHOICES become available.

keep in mind that these numbers are VAST. and outnumber natives who know who they are.

NOw thes lost and confused are seeking there identities and culture and are angry at having lost all that,

whoever helps them first are the ones they are going to support and join sides with.

Will it be other natives? or will it be invaders?

I think we already seen what happened when natives joined the invaders side.

I don't think it a good idea to abandon these lost and confused and let them join the invaders system and armies instead.

Old tribal grudges too, were part of the problem of how these lands were lost.

Old tribal grudges will keep these lands from being free again.
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Old 10-01-2014, 03:23 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by koyoteh View Post
When you have a bunch of lost disconnected natives running around wanting a side to choose, wanting their culture back, but not having a clue of where to turn, CHOICES become available.

keep in mind that these numbers are VAST. and outnumber natives who know who they are.

NOw thes lost and confused are seeking there identities and culture and are angry at having lost all that,

whoever helps them first are the ones they are going to support and join sides with.

Will it be other natives? or will it be invaders?

I think we already seen what happened when natives joined the invaders side.

I don't think it a good idea to abandon these lost and confused and let them join the invaders system and armies instead.

Old tribal grudges too, were part of the problem of how these lands were lost.

Old tribal grudges will keep these lands from being free again.
You talk in circles
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Old 10-01-2014, 04:38 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
You talk in circles

let me translate that....You don't understand.


thats the real issue here.


ever heard of linear thought vs circular?

linear thought is what they teach in american schools, business corporations, and the colonial military.

if ya can't understand circular thought, which is bringing thoughts back around to the first thoughts and questions, then you must have a valid linear way of thinking.

but still.

rhetorical questions you can ask and answer yourself.

they are designed that way.

bad part for the person asking rhetorical questions, is that even after the lisetener asks themselves the question, they may still come out with a disagreement.

but at least there is an udnerstanding.

so you say i talk in circles? ( bringing it back around now )

why not just comment on what was said?

Its eihter you don't understand or are running.


I put the choice in your hands to decide on a solutions to the problems you see.

do you face them or sweep them under a rug?
do you stand and fight? and for whose side? the americans, or the natives of your own tribe only? or all natives in alliance for the benefit of all natives across the board?

who benefits?

Last edited by koyoteh; 10-01-2014 at 04:40 PM..
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Old 10-01-2014, 04:48 PM   #19
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grudges

i for one know that old grudges still exist.

the mexica were not liked by everyone so there is old mistrust.

but thats goes for all kinds of tribes who had old traditional enemies.

after 200-500 years of dealing with a common enemy and suffereing at the hands of this enemy and all of us forced to live with one another and moved around together, people still want to hold on to the great great great grandpas beef.

we have a chance to unify, and then fight together. and then sort things out if necessary.

but maybe you okay working in that fighting ring or car club, and want nothing more. maybe you are okay working that nine to five and could care less about native plights in other areas. maybe that casino is paying you off and kicking out the ones you never liked. maybe the military has given your family food and shelter and status, despite that same military killng natives in other areas.

yeah i know mexicas were not nice. i know lots riled up against them. The colonial military tricked the other nations who didn't like them to rise against them. and then the military turned on them. ANd this was repeated again and again by all the colonial militaries and institutions, and still we don't learn our lessons.

so do we learn our lessons now?
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Old 10-02-2014, 03:14 PM   #20
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ok koyoteh......i concede to many of your arguments.....i am tying now between you and the other guy on here keep it straight in my head the difference between all the movements...........

but i would like you to visit a facebook group called "real mexican problems"......and look at the HATE and misinformation spewed there

then maybe you can kind of understand why north american natives reject danzate at powwows and so forth.....they never came and explained the differences between themselves and the hate-groups that is easy for the non-mexican to associate them with

i mean check it out....they tell me they have a claim to my homeland, im not real native, that sovreignty is kissing azz to the white man, that wanting cultural privacy is wrong because they should be able to claim our cultures selling out, and that THEY are the true natives and the southern tribes are really white europeans, they put words in my mouth and then claim that i am causing division all the while they are claiming they are supporting unity .....its pretty much insanity and like you said not all believe in that crap

then they try to trademark sitting bull, crazyhorse and geronimo as their folkheros.....UNFUGGINBELIEVABLE!!!!

but its the ones who do that we come into contact with.......it got to the point where natives cant even have a civil conversation with these types

one more thing...changing subject....the whole vet thing

all of them talk very disrespectful about them, knowing that they are held in very high regard amongst our people.....not the best way to make friends in our circles

if they want to make friends with us so bad then why do they start by insulting us and misappropriating us and making us a mascot?

thanks
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