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JiuJitsuFighter 02-04-2018 02:58 PM

Hello from California
 
Hello everyone, My name is Daniel and Im from California. Im here to learn what I can and give back when possible.
Also, just curious what everyone thinks. Does anyone on here consider indigenous people from Mexico and Guatemala Native Americans?

ChildrenFromTheSun 02-04-2018 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuFighter (Post 1634853)
Hello everyone, My name is Daniel and Im from California. Im here to learn what I can and give back when possible.
Also, just curious what everyone thinks. Does anyone on here consider indigenous people from Mexico and Guatemala Native Americans?

Greetings!

Well indigenous folks from Latin America are definitely Native Americans by definition. They're part of the Americas as are Native Americans in the US. They're just not consider Native American by law/enrollment as you must bear ancestry from legally recognized Native American cultures within the US's borders.

Besides that, they're definitely the same race when you take their phenotype and DNA into consideration: both very similar, especially more than any other race.

JiuJitsuFighter 02-04-2018 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChildrenFromTheSun (Post 1634858)
Greetings!

Well indigenous folks from Latin America are definitely Native Americans by definition. They're part of the Americas as are Native Americans in the US. They're just not consider Native American by law/enrollment as you must bear ancestry from legally recognized Native American cultures within the US's borders.

Besides that, they're definitely the same race when you take their phenotype and DNA into consideration: both very similar, especially than any other race.

Ok. That’s what my thought was. I have heard soo many different opinions regarding this subject. Some of the negative I’ve read I believe is more directed at the extremists movements that say they are from Mexico and native.

ChildrenFromTheSun 02-04-2018 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuFighter (Post 1634861)
Ok. That’s what my thought was. I have heard soo many different opinions regarding this subject. Some of the negative I’ve read I believe is more directed at the extremists movements that say they are from Mexico and native.

You mean like the Mexica Movement? Oh yeah, I'm Mexican myself, but I still highly disapprove of this movement. They're too extreme and biased towards Mesoamerican cultures.

Also to add to your previous question:

https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram...MTA0NDQ4OTY2.2

wanjica_the_one 02-04-2018 09:09 PM

Mexico is very racist against their own indigenous population. They'll say something to your face and walk away like it was nothing.

ChildrenFromTheSun 02-04-2018 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wanjica_the_one (Post 1634863)
Mexico is very racist against their own indigenous population. They'll say something to your face and walk away like it was nothing.

Not just Mexico, but occurs often for the rest of Latin America as well. It's so ironic as well when you consider the majority of Mexicans possess significant Native American ancestry, so they're technically hating on their own race.

JiuJitsuFighter 02-04-2018 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChildrenFromTheSun (Post 1634862)
You mean like the Mexica Movement? Oh yeah, I'm Mexican myself, but I still highly disapprove of this movement. They're too extreme and biased towards Mesoamerican cultures.

Also to add to your previous question:

https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram...MTA0NDQ4OTY2.2

Yes, they are super extreme. I work in a jail and I’ve heard several inmates talking about Mexica movement and they use that groups ideas to try and recruit new members into their gang and sort of brain wash them into thinking everything they do for the gang is for their people.

JiuJitsuFighter 02-04-2018 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wanjica_the_one (Post 1634863)
Mexico is very racist against their own indigenous population. They'll say something to your face and walk away like it was nothing.

Mexico is racist toward our own indigenous people. When we try and take pride in our indigenous side we get looked down on by Mexicans and in my opinion we don’t get acknowledged by northern natives. And Spain sure in the heck wouldn’t claim you lol

JiuJitsuFighter 02-04-2018 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChildrenFromTheSun (Post 1634864)
Not just Mexico, but occurs often for the rest of Latin America as well. It's so ironic as well when you consider the majority of Mexicans possess significant Native American ancestry, so they're technically hating on their own race.

I’ve seen hating by our own race and hating by northern natives. Although I have spoken with a Navajo man who had a pretty open mind and acknowledged indigenous people of Mexico as all part of the Native American family. It really sucks when you try your best to learn about your people and you get dissed on all ends lol

OLChemist 02-05-2018 10:13 AM

I think for some American Natives, the issues with some descendants of Central and South American tribes is the same problem they have with some descendants of North American tribes. It is problematic when folks -- no matter which side the Rio Grande their Native ancestry originates -- invent a culture. Especially when that invention traffics in stereotypes.

Over the years, being a powwow -- uh -- wannabe magnet, I've gotten to know, even like, some these rather lost souls who find or imagine a Native ancestor in the family wood pile. It is really very sad, they don't have any connection their ancestor's culture. Indeed they may not know even what tribe. But, for widely varied reasons they desperately want to be Indian. The problem is they haven't the slightest idea how "be Indian" or even what exactly they are claiming.

Some of these people go on to do the hard work of finding their way back. They become the quiet, humble "white" girl with the mop cleaning the floor after the powwow and driving hundreds of miles a year with Meals on Wheels. Or the electrician that vacations with Habitat for Humanity and helps build desperately needed housing. Or the woman who goes to school and specializes in tribal law, and goes to work for the Dinébe’iiná Náhiiłna be Agha’diit’ahii. They try to serve their people, and thus honor their ancestors.

But a larger fraction of these seize hold of a colorful tribal identity, usually one with lots of movies and library books, and proceed to then invent a culture. Too often what they create is a fun house mirror version of a Native culture. They make themselves medicine people, chiefs, pathfinders, whatever takes their fancy.

Usually their antics are amusing. But, they become anything but funny, when they push their way into the public eye. They misrepresent Native people, which inflicts damaging setback on peoples struggling to emerge from centuries of stereotyping and distortion. Sometimes they pose a direct threat the tribal sovereignty.

JiuJitsuFighter 02-05-2018 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1634869)
I think for some American Natives, the issues with some descendants of Central and South American tribes is the same problem they have with some descendants of North American tribes. It is problematic when folks -- no matter which side the Rio Grande their Native ancestry originates -- invent a culture. Especially when that invention traffics in stereotypes.

Over the years, being a powwow -- uh -- wannabe magnet, I've gotten to know, even like, some these rather lost souls who find or imagine a Native ancestor in the family wood pile. It is really very sad, they don't have any connection their ancestor's culture. Indeed they may not know even what tribe. But, for widely varied reasons they desperately want to be Indian. The problem is they haven't the slightest idea how "be Indian" or even what exactly they are claiming.

Some of these people go on to do the hard work of finding their way back. They become the quiet, humble "white" girl with the mop cleaning the floor after the powwow and driving hundreds of miles a year with Meals on Wheels. Or the electrician that vacations with Habitat for Humanity and helps build desperately needed housing. Or the woman who goes to school and specializes in tribal law, and goes to work for the Dinébe’iiná Náhiiłna be Agha’diit’ahii. They try to serve their people, and thus honor their ancestors.

But a larger fraction of these seize hold of a colorful tribal identity, usually one with lots of movies and library books, and proceed to then invent a culture. Too often what they create is a fun house mirror version of a Native culture. They make themselves medicine people, chiefs, pathfinders, whatever takes their fancy.

Usually their antics are amusing. But, they become anything but funny, when they push their way into the public eye. They misrepresent Native people, which inflicts damaging setback on peoples struggling to emerge from centuries of stereotyping and distortion. Sometimes they pose a direct threat the tribal sovereignty.

You do have a point as far as wannabes making it into the public eye and misrepresenting native people in a bad way. As far as the lost soul (lol) thing, you and I will have different opinions that are not worth arguing over and I don’t know you (your probably a great person) but I’ll share my opinion.
If someone has native ancestors and is lost , what’s the harm in accepting their native and guide them. Maybe they have lost their traditions because of the European invasions. Help them. I’m sure all of our native ancestors would think the same way. They wouldn’t say “where’s your enrollment card” lol. I’ve read a few things on this site that completely goes against the way any indigenous person would think.
Take care of your people don’t put them down and fight with each other. All the political bologna aside (enrollment cards, tribe, federally recognized or not) you know if your native or not take care of each other. This is nonsense.
And, yeah, I do think like this a bit because of course I don’t have an enrollment card hahaha but my grandmother is from Mexico and knows she’s indigenous and has her own traditions passed done to her by our family. Does that mean she’s not native?
One thing she has taught me is not to be narrowminded, accept people for who they are, love each other, and take care of your family and this earth we live on.
So, continue to diss people who don’t have cards, who maybe white yet have legit ancestors, who are from Mexico or Guatemala, (not federally recognized u.s.) and you will never have unity amongst natives which is their end goal.

*** for the record I have brownish red skin lol black hair brown eyes and my entire family is from Mexico, Texas and Guatemala...

OLChemist 02-05-2018 04:56 PM

Bear with me. Despite what you might think, I am actually quite sympathetic. But, I've seen the other side too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuFighter (Post 1634872)
*** for the record I have brownish red skin lol black hair brown eyes and my entire family is from Mexico, Texas and Guatemala...

For the record, I look like a fat white woman. Nor do I have a card. If I did, I'd give it up for someone with whom to practice my language.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuFighter (Post 1634872)
If someone has native ancestors and is lost , what’s the harm in accepting their native and guide them. Maybe they have lost their traditions because of the European invasions.

In the 50's through the 70's even into '80's my people were fairly open to seekers -- native and non and Cherokee Princess great-great-grandmother. What they got in exchange was sacrilege, New-Age books, human remains sprinkled over their sacred sites... Shall I continue?

The modern reality is tribes have limited resources -- economic, cultural and human. Many tribes face existential crises. They must marshal these first to their enrolled citizens.

"Hechel lena oyate kin nipi kte." Too many who come think only of themselves. Their mindset is not oriented to the tribe. In ceremony it is about what they get, not what the people get. They are not answerable to kin and community. It takes a lot to bind these bind people, to alter their ethos. Enculturating these folks on a large scale often takes more resources than can be spared.

I want the children of my relations to be able to take calculus in their high schools. I want them to go to school. I want them to be able to talk to their children about algebra, art, history and anything else that strikes their fancy in their language. I want those children to carry the Lakota worldview in the very structures formed in their brains by speaking Lakota first. Then they will know who they are. Then who they are will go with them wherever they want.

That is more important to me than whether thin-blooded i'eska like myself are welcomed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuFighter (Post 1634872)
I’m sure all of our native ancestors would think the same way.

Really, I'm fairly sure a few of my more pugnacious ancestors would have shot first and asked questions later. They fought Pawnee and Crow as well as whites.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuFighter (Post 1634872)
I’ve read a few things on this site that completely goes against the way any indigenous person would think.

I call this one out as a fine example of the no true Scotman fallacy.

I suspect, I've just had my indigenous bonfides impugned. Won't be the first time :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuFighter (Post 1634872)
...my grandmother is from Mexico and knows she’s indigenous and has her own traditions passed done to her by our family. Does that mean she’s not native?

I never questioned your identity. Sounds to me like you know who you are. What do you care if people from some other tribe accept you? All that matters is that you're good kin to your people. Do that and others will know you're Native.

The problem that I have is with the people who don't know what tribe they are and make stuff up. There is no generic Native. So, without a tribe these people only have some DNA, which doesn't make a culture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuFighter (Post 1634872)
So, continue to diss people who don’t have cards, who maybe white yet have legit ancestors, who are from Mexico or Guatemala, (not federally recognized u.s.) and you will never have unity amongst natives which is their end goal.

I never "dissed" anyone. I just cringe over the usage, LOL.

OLChemist 02-05-2018 06:10 PM

Oh, by the by JiuJitsuFighter. I love to debate. And I do tend to sarcasm -- mom says more than is necessary or proper. But, know that I'm not the sort to confuse disagreement with dislike. So please do not confound my counter arguments with dislike.

JiuJitsuFighter 02-05-2018 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1634878)
Oh, by the by JiuJitsuFighter. I love to debate. And I do tend to sarcasm -- mom says more than is necessary or proper. But, know that I'm not the sort to confuse disagreement with dislike. So please do not confound my counter arguments with dislike.

Hahahahaha your legit..
Thanks I won’t confuse anything.

JiuJitsuFighter 02-05-2018 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1634877)
Bear with me. Despite what you might think, I am actually quite sympathetic. But, I've seen the other side too.



For the record, I look like a fat white woman. Nor do I have a card. If I did, I'd give it up for someone with whom to practice my language.



In the 50's through the 70's even into '80's my people were fairly open to seekers -- native and non and Cherokee Princess great-great-grandmother. What they got in exchange was sacrilege, New-Age books, human remains sprinkled over their sacred sites... Shall I continue?

The modern reality is tribes have limited resources -- economic, cultural and human. Many tribes face existential crises. They must marshal these first to their enrolled citizens.

"Hechel lena oyate kin nipi kte." Too many who come think only of themselves. Their mindset is not oriented to the tribe. In ceremony it is about what they get, not what the people get. They are not answerable to kin and community. It takes a lot to bind these bind people, to alter their ethos. Enculturating these folks on a large scale often takes more resources than can be spared.

I want the children of my relations to be able to take calculus in their high schools. I want them to go to school. I want them to be able to talk to their children about algebra, art, history and anything else that strikes their fancy in their language. I want those children to carry the Lakota worldview in the very structures formed in their brains by speaking Lakota first. Then they will know who they are. Then who they are will go with them wherever they want.

That is more important to me than whether thin-blooded i'eska like myself are welcomed.



Really, I'm fairly sure a few of my more pugnacious ancestors would have shot first and asked questions later. They fought Pawnee and Crow as well as whites.



I call this one out as a fine example of the no true Scotman fallacy.

I suspect, I've just had my indigenous bonfides impugned. Won't be the first time :)



I never questioned your identity. Sounds to me like you know who you are. What do you care if people from some other tribe accept you? All that matters is that you're good kin to your people. Do that and others will know you're Native.

The problem that I have is with the people who don't know what tribe they are and make stuff up. There is no generic Native. So, without a tribe these people only have some DNA, which doesn't make a culture.



I never "dissed" anyone. I just cringe over the usage, LOL.

I agree with everything you said 100%. I feel the same way about my boys. I teach them their language and hopefully they can pass it down to their kids. Nice vocab btw..

gilisi 02-06-2018 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuFighter (Post 1634853)
Hello everyone, My name is Daniel and Im from California. Im here to learn what I can and give back when possible.
Also, just curious what everyone thinks. Does anyone on here consider indigenous people from Mexico and Guatemala Native Americans?

Welcome to Powwows.com. Where in Cali are you? I live in Modesto.

JiuJitsuFighter 02-06-2018 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gilisi (Post 1634886)
Welcome to Powwows.com. Where in Cali are you? I live in Modesto.

Hahaha wow. I’m 40 min south of you..

gilisi 02-07-2018 02:46 PM

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sQs1pNv2eIo" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I don't know about Mexicans all hating their natives. All the ones I kick it with rock it pretty loud and proud.

wardancer 02-07-2018 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gilisi (Post 1634888)
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sQs1pNv2eIo" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I don't know about Mexicans all hating their natives. All the ones I kick it with rock it pretty loud and proud.

Dang "G" , I didn't know you could sing like that ! And where'd you get the fancy jacket ? :rofl:

gilisi 02-07-2018 03:16 PM

I really don't know how to use a hoe or a rake, that was all for show


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