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Old 08-18-2014, 11:46 AM   #21
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We are given to believe that Native American’s back then had no concept of individual land ownership, is this true or is it another load of simplistic rubbish? Group ownership must have existed, for there are many cases of Native American leaders asking/demanding settlers leave “Our Lands”.
Malarkey.

I usually hear that arguement in the context of some non-Indian discussing treaties. Usually they start their spiel with "the Indians didn't believe you could own the land so they didn't understand what they were signing…" The discourse then proceeds as through we have been assigned an a priori treaty violation. So when the colonizers violate the treaty, their guilt is less because we broke it first -- albeit out of ignorance.

Or you'll hear that from Native purveyors of romantic claptrap. Often they are pushing a political agenda to tenured fans of vaguely Marxist post-colonial theory or to aging hippies longing for the commune. A lot of the early 70's AIM leadership presented this old chestnut, because they seemed to think it gave us some kind of moral superiority over the dominant culture.

For me, it never held water. If we didn't understand land ownership, why did we fight Crows, Pawnees, Omahas, or Long Knives who came on to it? We certainly had a highly developed system of ownership of intellectual property. We many ot have had patents or trademarks, but we knew exactly who had the rights to certain information or artistic and literary expression. We knew what belonged to our people, thank you very much.


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]What do you think makes a reservation special, is it just that there is a degree of autonomy from the state and federal Government?
Oh, the legal basis of this unique relationship is complicated. It differs significantly between the US and Canada, and the lower 48 and Alaska. In the US version, I doubt you want to hear about various treaties, legal rulings, PL 280, termination, NARFA or the rest.

I am guessing you want to know why we cling to what often seems to outsiders, and even some of our own people, to be cages full of poverty and crime. I can't tell you what every Indian thinks, I can only tell you what my mother and grandfather's reservation means to me as a urban born, mixed-blood woman.

It is first and foremost the land where I know the stories. In that place, I know why we don't point at a rainbow or why we do say particular phrase when killing a spider. I know that in this place certain people pray to certain powers, and in that place so-and-so's grandfather hid after running away from school. It is part of a scared geography.

It is a safe haven for religion and language. It is place where you count kinship in complex, deep and abiding ways.

It is the land my ancestor's fought to keep. It holds their bones. Their blood enriches its dirt. They forced the US government to the negotiating table. That much of it was taken in a maneuver even the US courts have acknowledged was illegal, does not make the remainder any less valuable.

I am the third generation to live elsewhere. But, like my grandfather and mother, when I say back home I don't mean DFW, Pittsburgh or Chadron.


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The acromyn “NDN”. You guys use the term a lot, where would I stand on this? Typing Native American often ties up my fingers but using NA doesn’t work either. We do use the word “Indian” in the UK but in all cases it refers to persons coming from India, when it’s okay.
Generally, I prefer my name, LOL.

When I was doing my post-doc a colleague once got confused about that answer. She said: "American Indian, Native American, First Nations, Aboriginal, Indigenous-American, Amerind, Indian person." I thought I might have to give her oxygen before she got to the end of the sentence.

All of these are umbrella terms for many different tribes. Personally, I don't get too worked up over your choice of nomenclature, as long as it is remember we are individuals.
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Old 08-20-2014, 12:03 PM   #22
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Wow, the thread killer strikes again. I do have a gift for scaring them away, LOL.
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Old 08-20-2014, 01:22 PM   #23
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dang ndns !
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:51 AM   #24
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Wow, the thread killer strikes again. I do have a gift for scaring them away, LOL.
I'm not scared yet!
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:24 AM   #25
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OLChemist.

You are certainly exercising my googling skills. I’ve had to look up “Malarkey”, “ AIM”, “Lower 48”, “DFW”. There are a couple that I can’t work out?

“Chadron” - College ?
“Long Knives” - loads of stuff about Hitler which can’t be it?

I can now see why Reservations are special. Thank you.

-----------------

Recently on Fox News there are reports of new “Land Grabs”, mostly they appear to be in Utah. This appears to be a huge dose of irony if it’s a case of taking land off those who ancestors grabbed the land in the first place, what are your thoughts?


I’ve been watching a lot of dance videos, along with the explanations , I’m beginning to see the stories. There are also links to other dances such as the Buffalo Dance, Ghost Dance, Sun Dance etc. These are not mentioned here on powwow.com . Have these been superseded or evolved into the current dances, if so can you tell me which went the which?

On the outfits, I understand that these develop and change over time and are different according to the dancers nation and are very personalised. Is there a basic starting point for individuals? Are outfits passed down through families. Are you expected to make your own, what happens if you have no talent with a needle and thread?

On Face Paint – clearly there is great symbolism, has the symbolism been carried on, what does it say. eg. The fellow on the Morongo banner (Thunder & Lightning Pow Wow) with the white across his eyes and what appears to be a yellow beak or claw. What does this mean?

K
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Old 08-21-2014, 09:28 AM   #26
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Long Knives were white guys from colonial times

Chadron is in Nebraska
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:11 AM   #27
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Angry still going to pow-wows regardless what others think ofme you may hate me I dont care

still going to go to Native Pow-wows and I really don't care if others hate me like me or love me its your choice I am not going to twist your arm to make friends or make war if you want lol. Its up to you guys and girls not me if you want to be friends or not or at least civil to one another I was going to leave this site and take my name off here but why should I run away when others have just as much attitude if not more than me there are a lot of that going around on here smart mouths so on and I don't like it one bit. Lose the attitude I will try my best to lose mine you reap what you sow you give attitude to me you'll get it right back in your face and space don't like it don't come around me then simple as that. Like War Dancer saying when he grows up to be Native he will get him a headband what's up with that comment smart butt if you ask me lol. To Me that's being smart or smarting off I don't like smart mouths and people with the Big Chief attitude I get enough of that in my home don't need that here. The Big man Attitude saying I am Indian and you are not what's up with that too cant we all be civil to one another and quit going on the warpath every time I say anything out of my mouth oh I get the looks and the eye rolling and the lmaos and Oh Lord here we go again attitude like I said drop the attitude and I will try my hardest to drop mine I don't have issues either just speaking my mind don't like it don't care. Already got one infraction you want to bring it bring it then keep them coming I have lots to say on my mind and my feelings. And I have said my peace whether you agree or not or get offended. And btw I am not the only chief on here there are too many chiefs running the show here and I don't like that either keep your mouth shut nothing but evil to say about someone or be nice choices choices make up your minds what it will be and let me know.

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Old 08-21-2014, 10:32 AM   #28
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still going to go to Native Pow-wows and I really don't care if others hate me like me or love me its your choice I am not going to twist your arm to make friends or make war if you want lol. Its up to you guys and girls not me if you want to be friends or not or at least civil to one another I was going to leave this site and take my name off here but why should I run away when others have just as much attitude if not more than me there are a lot of that going around on here smart mouths so on and I don't like it one bit. Lose the attitude I will try my best to lose mine you reap what you sow you give attitude to me you'll get it right back in your face and space don't like it don't come around me then simple as that. Like War Dancer saying when he grows up to be Native he will get him a headband what's up with that comment smart butt if you ask me lol. To Me that's being smart or smarting off I don't like smart mouths and people with the Big Chief attitude I get enough of that in my home don't need that here. The Big man Attitude saying I am Indian and you are not what's up with that too cant we all be civil to one another and quit going on the warpath every time I say anything out of my mouth oh I get the looks and the eye rolling and the lmaos and Oh Lord here we go again attitude like I said drop the attitude and I will try my hardest to drop mine I don't have issues either just speaking my mind don't like it don't care. Already got one infraction you want to bring it bring it then keep them coming I have lots to say on my mind and my feelings. And I have said my peace whether you agree or not or get offended. And btw I am not the only chief on here there are too many chiefs running the show here and I don't like that either keep your mouth shut nothing but evil to say about someone or be nice choices choices make up your minds what it will be and let me know.
I don't understand this at all. Are you saying my attitude stinks?
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:36 AM   #29
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I don't understand this at all. Are you saying my attitude stinks?
Nah... she's talking about the rest of us. Ignore her, she's just post crashing.
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:47 AM   #30
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Sorry, I shall endeavor to remember that as an American I don't really speak English :)

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There are also links to other dances such as the Buffalo Dance, Ghost Dance, Sun Dance etc. These are not mentioned here on powwow.com . Have these been superseded or evolved into the current dances, if so can you tell me which went the which?

Those are religious dances, ceremonies. Powwow dancing is social dancing. For the most part our pre-contact religions are ongoing affairs. So, many of the practices you read about in history books are still occuring.

Regarding traditional Native religions... There are very significant differences in ethos between Native and Judeo-Christian religions. In many of our traditions, the a sacred is treated with profound respect, and this respect manifests itself as restrictions on the sharing of certain teachings beyond those people who need to know. This is not done out of spite or racism. It is just a proper respect for the balance of the universe. For example, as a woman, there a things men do in ceremony that aren't any of my business. There are physical and metaphysical consequences to sharing teachings. For this reason many Native people will not talk about ceremonies or religion, except in the most general terms.

Just as a rule of thumb, if a ceremony is on video on the internet be wary. I know I've run across "sun dance" videos on the internet. I don't know any legitimate holy person who would let that ceremony be filmed. The bits I saw, were enough to tell me this "ceremony" was be conducted by people who had appropriated and distorted the practice. Much of what is out there on the internet or in books about Native religions is wrong. It distorts the practice, the rationale behind it and often damages our cultural integrity.

Just for future reference, in our cultures the modes of transmission of knowledge, particularly about the sacred, tend to be very restrictive. There is a time and place and a proper approach to ask about these things. The internet is almost never that place.

Further, casual questions about religion are often considered inappropriate. It is not necessarily because you're non-Indian, but may be that it just isn't acceptable to discuss the matter with non-tribal members, or men or for the person you asked to answer. So, inquiries of this nature may be greeted with silence, like a child receives when asking a biological question in mixed company. Or you may be teased or mocked. Many of our cultures use ridicule to remind folks of boundaries. If this happens, just drop the matter. Native teasing for corrective purposes can be harsh. But, if you accept the correction, don't argue and let the matter go, it will stop.

In a forum like this you need to remember you're not the first person to ask any question, LOL. How many times a week do you have to explain your religion or manners or customs to a stranger? I will do it 2 or 3 times a week. My experience is not that unusual for a Native person. Being an unpaid cultural educator is part of the package, as it were. Not all of us like the role or do it well. And understand, we've all had positive and negative experiences with people's responses to our answers. So, folks may be less than diplomatic. So, be patient with all the different types of responses you may get.
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:54 AM   #31
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still going to go to Native Pow-wows and I really don't care if others hate me like me or love me its your choice I am not going to twist your arm to make friends or make war if you want lol. Its up to you guys and girls not me if you want to be friends or not or at least civil to one another I was going to leave this site and take my name off here but why should I run away when others have just as much attitude if not more than me there are a lot of that going around on here smart mouths so on and I don't like it one bit. Lose the attitude I will try my best to lose mine you reap what you sow you give attitude to me you'll get it right back in your face and space don't like it don't come around me then simple as that. Like War Dancer saying when he grows up to be Native he will get him a headband what's up with that comment smart butt if you ask me lol. To Me that's being smart or smarting off I don't like smart mouths and people with the Big Chief attitude I get enough of that in my home don't need that here. The Big man Attitude saying I am Indian and you are not what's up with that too cant we all be civil to one another and quit going on the warpath every time I say anything out of my mouth oh I get the looks and the eye rolling and the lmaos and Oh Lord here we go again attitude like I said drop the attitude and I will try my hardest to drop mine I don't have issues either just speaking my mind don't like it don't care. Already got one infraction you want to bring it bring it then keep them coming I have lots to say on my mind and my feelings. And I have said my peace whether you agree or not or get offended. And btw I am not the only chief on here there are too many chiefs running the show here and I don't like that either keep your mouth shut nothing but evil to say about someone or be nice choices choices make up your minds what it will be and let me know.
And the stereotypes continue !
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:54 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Mogs View Post
On the outfits, I understand that these develop and change over time and are different according to the dancers nation and are very personalised. Is there a basic starting point for individuals? Are outfits passed down through families. Are you expected to make your own, what happens if you have no talent with a needle and thread?
You start by talking with your family, your elders and other dancers. Most people have a mentor who teaches them and who may ultimately bring them into the arena. Usually once you have found your mentor and your particular dance style you work on an outfit.

Outfits come from many sources. You many have pieces that are passed down. You may be given an entire outfit as a gift. You may make part or all of it. Some pieces of regalia are made by people who have special rights to make certain items.

If you're not able to make parts, you pay people like me or others on here to do it for you. Or you hope you have family members that will take pity on you and make your outfit.


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On Face Paint – clearly there is great symbolism, has the symbolism been carried on, what does it say. eg. The fellow on the Morongo banner (Thunder & Lightning Pow Wow) with the white across his eyes and what appears to be a yellow beak or claw. What does this mean?
That's a men's thing. I'll have to defer to an expert on that.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:23 AM   #33
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I don't understand this at all. Are you saying my attitude stinks?
Mogs, my apologies. The tirade is directed at me and several others on here. Not you.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:31 AM   #34
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Nah... she's talking about the rest of us. Ignore her, she's just post crashing.
Thank you.

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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Sorry, I shall endeavor to remember that as an American I don't really speak English :)
"Two countries separated by a common language". I expect you find my spelling odd, but if I try to spell the American way it would look really naf - I could manage tonight(tonite) and colour(color) but anymore I'll get wrong.

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...inquiries of this nature may be greeted with silence
That's a tough one as the internet will not let me know whether I am being deliberately being blanked or whether I have not been noticed.

Lets hope a bloke will come along to explain the face paint or tell me to drop it.

Thanks

K
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:52 AM   #35
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Lets hope a bloke will come along to explain the face paint or tell me to drop it.

Thanks

K
Well , paint is a very personal thing for some , religious and sacred to others , and for some it's just to look cool !

Mine is personal. We'll leave it at that.

To others though it's symbolic of past times. The use of designs and symbols can be from family ties ,clans , warrior societies ,tribal representation , etc. etc. Or it could have just been a vision !
Sometimes it was to make the enemy fear such a formidable figure with a scary face or body ! Sometimes the colors used were symbolic. Sometimes it was considered "medicine"
Modern competition powwows have also influenced , as dancers want to be noticed. In order to win contests , the judges have to see you.
Now you have the "quick paint lesson"! LOL Please don't attack me with any vegetable by products !
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





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Last edited by wardancer; 08-21-2014 at 11:57 AM..
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:59 AM   #36
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...
"Two countries separated by a common language". I expect you find my spelling odd, but if I try to spell the American way it would look really naf - I could manage tonight(tonite) and colour(color) but anymore I'll get wrong.

...
We are used to your spelling style as it is much closer to the way Canadians spell certain words.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:21 PM   #37
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Hello, too

Hi everyone,

like Mogs/Kevin, I am an outsider, too. I'm from Germany and a student of English Speaking Cultures and History, whith interest in Native American contemporary culture.
I just wanted to say a big Thank you for this informative, interesting discussion here.
I thought that the practice of adopting children out of Native families had already stopped before the 1960s, because of the re-thinking and activism against the Boarding school system (like Carlisle Industrial School, PA), where children where kidnapped and forced to go to distant schools where beatings, malnourishments, and mistreatments occurred as well as prohibition of speaking their Native languages.

I'm not Native American, so please correct me if I'm wrong/impolite/rude, but I would recommend the page jstor (JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie), which libraries/universities/colleges near you might have access to, if you search for scholarly articles (i.e from the magazine "The American Indian Quarterly").
Also the webpage of the National Museum of the American Indian (Home | National Museum of the American Indian) is very informative and educative.
The newspaper-page Native & American Indian News, Culture, Music, Art and More - Indian Country Today Media Network.com offers a lot of non-scholarly articles with a wide range of topics.
I also like "The 1491s", a Native comedy (and eco/human rights activists?) group on youtube, who also post videos to represent Native people and culture:https://www.youtube.com/user/the1491s

Hope this helps you further :)
Best wishes
Jojo
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:52 PM   #38
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Thumbs down no Olchemist does his attitude stinks lol shewwww

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I don't understand this at all. Are you saying my attitude stinks?
Ol Chemist Attitude stinks and war dancer too lol
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:53 PM   #39
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Thumbs down some ndns on here get shaking up too much you cant handle the truth though

can you handle the truth too many ndns on here are getting shaken up that's all later
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Old 08-21-2014, 02:11 PM   #40
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can you handle the truth too many ndns on here are getting shaken up that's all later
I have no clue what you are talking about.
The only thing we said to you was about stereotypical bull crap that you, as well as other "thin blood know nothings" use all the time. Instead of being educated, even just a little bit , you chose to attack and try to belittle long standing members of this site.
You know when 1 person has a problem with you , it could go either way. When EVERYONE has a problem with you , maybe YOU should change.
I'm not "shook up" , I'm just trying to maintain some civility on this forum. I will say this , I'm tired of your BULL and I've already recommended you be banned. I rarely do that with regular members.
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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