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Old 08-21-2014, 06:00 PM   #41
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Welcome to the board.
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Old 08-22-2014, 03:18 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigalante View Post
still going to go to Native Pow-wows and I really don't care if others hate me like me or love me its your choice I am not going to twist your arm to make friends or make war if you want lol. Its up to you guys and girls not me if you want to be friends or not or at least civil to one another I was going to leave this site and take my name off here but why should I run away when others have just as much attitude if not more than me there are a lot of that going around on here smart mouths so on and I don't like it one bit. Lose the attitude I will try my best to lose mine you reap what you sow you give attitude to me you'll get it right back in your face and space don't like it don't come around me then simple as that. Like War Dancer saying when he grows up to be Native he will get him a headband what's up with that comment smart butt if you ask me lol. To Me that's being smart or smarting off I don't like smart mouths and people with the Big Chief attitude I get enough of that in my home don't need that here. The Big man Attitude saying I am Indian and you are not what's up with that too cant we all be civil to one another and quit going on the warpath every time I say anything out of my mouth oh I get the looks and the eye rolling and the lmaos and Oh Lord here we go again attitude like I said drop the attitude and I will try my hardest to drop mine I don't have issues either just speaking my mind don't like it don't care. Already got one infraction you want to bring it bring it then keep them coming I have lots to say on my mind and my feelings. And I have said my peace whether you agree or not or get offended. And btw I am not the only chief on here there are too many chiefs running the show here and I don't like that either keep your mouth shut nothing but evil to say about someone or be nice choices choices make up your minds what it will be and let me know.
Get your knickers in a knot much? BTW, coming to an NDN forum with a user name like Vigalante, is kind of..off putting. Vigalantes have done much harm over the centuries.
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Old 08-22-2014, 05:15 AM   #43
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Please Stop This

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Mogs, my apologies. The tirade is directed at me and several others on here. Not you.
Thank you for the explanation, although an apology was not needed.

In general I do not get involved in other peoples disagreements (unless asked to do so). But there are exceptions:-

Vigalante - you may or may not have a valid grievance, Iím not taking sides, but I fear your message maybe putting others off from replying to the genuine queries Iím making, or worse turning this into a slanging match. Please donít continue your dispute on this thread.

K
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Old 08-22-2014, 06:35 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wardancer View Post
Well , paint is a very personal thing for some , religious and sacred to others , and for some it's just to look cool !

Mine is personal. We'll leave it at that.
Thanks, not to delve too much further, but can you or other Ndns occasionally discern the meaning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wardancer View Post
Now you have the "quick paint lesson"! LOL Please don't attack me with any vegetable by products !
As usual, I don't get the joke, but if I were to throw a turnip at you, it would be the most ambitious I have ever been, your probably about four thousand miles away.

K
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Old 08-22-2014, 09:29 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogs View Post
Thanks, not to delve too much further, but can you or other Ndns occasionally discern the meaning? That would be up to the individual. I'm sure some would not be opposed to revealing how they got their paint , or why they wear it.



As usual, I don't get the joke, but if I were to throw a turnip at you, it would be the most ambitious I have ever been, your probably about four thousand miles away.

K
It was aimed at "vigalante" She has repeatedly mentioned threats of depositing corn cobs into posteriors(arse) ! ndns(and most folks) occasionally use sarcasm to try to make a point without actually coming right out and saying something , especially if it would hurt or insult them.
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Old 08-22-2014, 10:18 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogs View Post
Thanks, not to delve too much further, but can you or other Ndns occasionally discern the meaning?
Mogs, are you asking if a person other than the wearer can tell what the paint means?
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Old 08-24-2014, 03:19 PM   #47
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Mogs, asking for book recommendations from the the woman who lists Amazon.com as a dependent on her income tax return is probably dangerous, LOL.

I was thinking about another perspective on some of the evens described in Dee Brown's book. Below are some Native authors works about that same history.

Joseph Marshall, III The Day the World Ended at Little Bighorn, Viking Press, 2007.

Jame Welch, Killing Custer, Penguin Books, 1995.

Susan Bettelyoun, and Josephine Waggoner, With My Own Eyes, ed. E. Levine, University of Nebraska Press, 1998.

Of these, the Bettelyoun and Waggoner book is probably the most difficult read. In the 1930's these two elderly Lakota woman collaborated on writing a history of their people in the later half of the 1800's -- an era in which they both lived. It uses lots of Lakota place names, so reading the tons of footnotes is necessary to relate this document to events in dominant culture histories. What is of interest is their perspective as Lakota woman on these events.
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Old 08-26-2014, 08:10 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Mogs, are you asking if a person other than the wearer can tell what the paint means?
Yes, sort of. It's probably not the best analogy - When I was a boy scout, I could discover what a fellow boy scout was good at and to what level they had achieved from reading the patches sewn to their kit. Some were more cryptic than others and one would have to be in the know to read it fully. Thus I'm asking is the pint readable? (I'm not asking anyone to read it for me).

In regard to the books, my local library were unable to source any of the ones you listed. Here in the UK, if your library does not have a book you want they are supposed to evaluate whether there maybe sufficient interest, and then perhaps purchase it. But all Local Authorities are "enduring" budget cuts at the moment and the librarian unofficially gave that short shift.

I purchased (e-book) "Everything that you wanted to know..." from Amazon and have so far found it very enlightening. At £6 ($10) a go, I can't afford to do this too much.

Now that I know what Fry Bread is I'm going to give that a try. but all the recipes are in "cups", we cook by weight. So it could be a disaster I'd like to try the Wild Rice recipes but have doubts on sourcing ingredients.

K
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Old 08-26-2014, 09:01 AM   #49
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Now the correct recipe for frybread gets into the real area of tribal and family conflict, LOL.

This is one I converted to weights a few years ago for a colleague in England.

385g all-purpose flour;
70g powdered milk;
8g baking powder (in the US a mixture of NaHCO3 and Ca(H2PO3)2);
16g sugar;
2g salt;
355ml water;

Peanut oil for frying.

Mix dry ingredients and water until the dough just comes together. Knead very lightly, you may need to add a touch more flour or water at this point. Do not over knead, or you'll be chewing that fry bread for a week. Divide dough into balls about the size of your fist. You can let the dough sit for a time at this point, just cover it with oiled plastic wrap. Be aware the longer it sits the tougher it will get.

In a heavy cast iron skillet heat your oil to 175-180C. Pat the dough into circles about 0.5cm thick. Poke a small hole in the middle. Fry until golden brown, about a 1min. turn over and fry the other side until brown, 30-45 seconds. Drain on rack or paper towels.

Dust with powdered sugar, drizzle with honey or dip in wojapi :)
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:35 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogs View Post
Yes, sort of. It's probably not the best analogy - When I was a boy scout, I could discover what a fellow boy scout was good at and to what level they had achieved from reading the patches sewn to their kit. Some were more cryptic than others and one would have to be in the know to read it fully. Thus I'm asking is the pint readable? (I'm not asking anyone to read it for me).
Actually, based what I have been taught, not a bad analogy at all.

If you go back and look at Wardancer's post, you'll see a section where he is talking about tribal, family and society markings/designs. As you can imagine other knowledgeable individuals within the family, tribe or society would understand what they meant.

Some regalia also bears similar symbolic markings. Native people, like all other humans, mark their persons, clothing and belongings with symbols of achievement, identity and group membership. As you noted, it is not unique to Native peoples. I live in Texas where the style of a man's boots can tell you a lot about their profession and self-image, LOL.

I would however caution against assuming everything in Native cultures is deeply symbolic. That is a common preconception outsiders have when first exposed to our visual arts. Sometimes something is just pretty.
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Old 08-26-2014, 11:10 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigalante View Post
can you handle the truth too many ndns on here are getting shaken up that's all later
Now that Vigalante is banned. I want to say that she does not get it when we are talking about our native perspective.

I had that problem with some of the hearing people who were excited about the Deaf people especially about relationship between deaf and hearing which I had tried to explained that relationship between deaf and hearing are not going to work. Maybe some can work out. That was in the Deaf Forums. Some of them was so angry and upset that they would blast me or any other Deaf members that they would make the deaf to be hearing like them. They don't understand about Deaf Culture which we use ASL (American Sign Language) to communicate with each other. So some of them were banned from being angry with us.

So Vigalante was way off being angry with us over the words of what Vigalante said. I feel sorry for her as we are telling her by being blunt. That is me being blunt for telling the honest and truthful about our native perspective. If she does not understand, then there is nothing we can do to teach her about us.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:27 AM   #52
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I'd like to try the Wild Rice recipes but have doubts on sourcing ingredients.
Wild Rice at Realfoods UK

In my opinion, none of the paddy grown, commercially processed products compare with the wild grain, harvested by hand, parched over wood and hulled by treading. But, they'll do in a pinch. They work well in soups.

There is an outfit up on Leech Lake called Bineshii that sells the wild harvested, wood parched stuff. You'll pay for it, but if you ever saw how hard the girls who hull the rice work, you would understand why. I don't know if they can ship it to the UK.
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Old 08-27-2014, 08:52 AM   #53
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Thanks for the link, I was not thinking that deeply, with effort Iím sure I will be able to get it, one step at a time. I was thinking Asda (Wallmart) wonít have this.

Iím still up for the Frybread, having showed the recipe to my wife last night, weíre going to give it a try at the weekend. She took one look at the recipe and announced ďYouíre not having a lot, itíll be loaded in caloriesĒ.

To my next subject Ė Hunting. This is not covered in Mr Treuers book, and anyway I prefer to converse as best I can with you guys. Hunting in this country (UK) is in the most part is practiced by the rich and/or the toffs. Either itís Horse & Hounds or blasting away at birds that can barely fly. Neither of which Iíve much appreciation of.

I know that hunting in the US and Canada is still very much practiced for food (and well as sport). From what I have read so far, hunting was a right of passage for many Indians, does this still occur, has it become so regulated to make it unworkable? If it is still practiced, is it undertaken in traditional ways, (eg. Archery as I've seen on TV, although this may have been simulated) or is it now all rifle. Are buffalo still hunted (albeit as part of a managed cull)? The same I guess applies to deer, elk, caribou, perhaps even bear and wolf.

Yes, I know that there will not be a single answer, each nation will have its own customs and practices, and I am asking you all as if youíre a homologous unit, but I donít know how else to ask the question on an open forum to all without it sounding as such.

K
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Old 08-28-2014, 07:17 AM   #54
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I have to laugh. Before I read this yesterday morning, I was sitting around with the Texas country boys at work listening to them talk about the upcoming deer season and eating the last of one guy's venison sausage.

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From what I have read so far, hunting was a right of passage for many Indians, does this still occur, has it become so regulated to make it unworkable?
Even though from an anthropological point of the use of rite of passage may be correct for some cultures, the usage bothers me. Although I'd be hard pressed to explain why, LOL.

Tribes like state and federal governments regulate resources, this includes game animals. If you go any just about any tribe's webpage, you'll find a link or phone number for their Fish and Game office. They issue permits for tribal members and non-tribal members for hunting. This is no different from the akicita of old who regulated tribal hunters to insure the good of people and the resources. All hunting cultures have rules and practices to insure the continuation of the species upon which they depend.

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Originally Posted by Mogs View Post
If it is still practiced, is it undertaken in traditional ways, (eg. Archery as I've seen on TV, although this may have been simulated) or is it now all rifle.
Rifles mostly -- we like our boys to actually grow up, LOL. Those buffalo are freaking dangerous! Think really big bull with sharp horns without a few millennia of selective breeding pressure to make them docile. My ancestors sure as heck were sterner stuff than I to hunt those a bow and arrows.

Seriously, please be careful about confounding material culture with tradition. In my mind, tradition is about the attitude of hunter, how the animal is treated, and the role of the food and other animal products in the culture. If traditional means hunted with stone tips arrows, cut with stone knives and cooked in a buffalo paunch, then my people probably have not had a "traditional hunt" since Lewis and Clark. If traditional means respecting the sacrifice of the animal and using it's gifts to support the life -- physical and spiritual -- of the people, then traditional hunts are ongoing.

Now, are the people who use old fashion tool to hunt, yes. All the ones I know personally are non-Native ancient weapons enthusiasts. But, There are native people who still make and use the olf-fashioned weapons.

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Originally Posted by Mogs View Post
Are buffalo still hunted (albeit as part of a managed cull)? The same I guess applies to deer, elk, caribou, perhaps even bear and wolf.
All of those animals with the exception of the wolf are still taken.

Wild buffalo herds are still relatively rare. Most animals are parts of managed/ranch raised herds. Buffalo can be a vector for a illness that causes stillborn calves in domestic cattle. So, they are perceived, often disproportionally, as a threat to ranchers.

Part of what has fueled the resurgence of the buffalo is the dominant culture's interest in them as tasty, low cholesterol game animals. Buffalo (with varying degrees of genetic intermixture with beff cattle) meat is easily available in grocery stores and meat markets in major US cities. This city Indian gets her buffalo at Central Market. I may cook it in a GE oven and serve it with a touch of sage and mustard cream sauce, LOL. But it is still a meal with deep meanings that beef or chicken don't have.

Here are a couple of videos you might find of interest:

Look around minute 22 of this one:

Urban Rez

Decolonizing the Diet
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Old 08-29-2014, 07:33 AM   #55
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I've never seen a buffalo live, I guess we have some in zoo's, I've not come across one. It does seem silly to me (an outsider) that anyone would hunt anything big with bow and arrow, especially if that animal can then turn on you. The item I've seen was definitely modern Indians riding horseback, no saddles, some with rifles some with Bow & Arrow, there was no attempt to conceal it as a recreation.

I guess the wolf is protected?

My next question (to you guys as Americans not specifically Indians).

US television, we receive loads, the quality range varies but as thatís subjective letís not go there. How much British TV gets aired with you guys, what do you think?

Itís very obvious that Hollywood doesnít like us Brits at the moment, it doesnít matter which programme it is, if thereís a Brit in it, you can guarantee heís the ďbaddieĒ. It getís even better when the ďBritĒ is played by an American actor, especially when accents are attempted.

K
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Old 08-29-2014, 07:37 AM   #56
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hello everyone
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Old 08-29-2014, 07:42 AM   #57
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hello everyone
That was a quick response, if you are in the US, you're up early.

K
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Old 08-29-2014, 08:18 AM   #58
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Not much, if any on, network and local independents. By network I mean the three big nationwide networks that are available free to anyone with a set and decent reception. Local independents are stations that by and large are not affiliated with a major network and are also free to viewers.

If you watch PBS -- a national network funded by tax dollars and private contributions -- and your local affiliate thinks they will get viewership with British programming you can get a lot. My PBS station is currently running Doc Martin, Spooks, Foyle's War, Twenty Twelve, Death In Paradise, New Tricks, Midsummer Murders, BBC Newsnight, BBC World News, and whatever WGBH Boston and the BBC have cooked up for this year's run of Masterpiece Theater. PBS also shows endless reruns of One Foot in the Grave, Waiting for God, As Time Goes By, Are You Being Served, Black Adder, Fawltey Towers, Red Dwarf, 'Allo 'Allo, Dr Who, Mr Bean, Open All Night... During the Tellyspoting promotion of KERA's pledge drive week, you can see a thirty year span of Dame Judith Dench's career in one evening, LOL.

British TV on PBS in North Texas

On cable and satellite there is BBC America. Many of the documentary channels like Discovery, History, and TLC will show documentaries from Skye or one of the BBC channels. On the sports channels we get soccer and cricket.
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Old 08-29-2014, 08:48 AM   #59
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Oh Dear

Some of those are okay, others are really old and very bad.

I hope the cricket is 20-20, if it's test match, it'll be like watching paint dry. Sorry.

K
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:50 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogs View Post
I've never seen a buffalo live, I guess we have some in zoo's, I've not come across one. It does seem silly to me (an outsider) that anyone would hunt anything big with bow and arrow, especially if that animal can then turn on you. The item I've seen was definitely modern Indians riding horseback, no saddles, some with rifles some with Bow & Arrow, there was no attempt to conceal it as a recreation.

I guess the wolf is protected?

My next question (to you guys as Americans not specifically Indians).

US television, we receive loads, the quality range varies but as thatís subjective letís not go there. How much British TV gets aired with you guys, what do you think?

Itís very obvious that Hollywood doesnít like us Brits at the moment, it doesnít matter which programme it is, if thereís a Brit in it, you can guarantee heís the ďbaddieĒ. It getís even better when the ďBritĒ is played by an American actor, especially when accents are attempted.

K
US television for the most part sucks. I have cable, with a large channel package, and I may watch 3 channels regularly. The only reason for the higher tier channel package is that the channels I watch are only available with that package. I mostly stream shows and movies over my Roku.

As for British TV, OLChemist is right, we only receive a little. When I think of British TV I think of Top Gear, which was one of my favorite TV shows but I guess they have not filmed a new season(?). The British, as TV stars, are very popular here - like Gordon Ramsey and Simon Cowell.
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