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Old 01-21-2011, 04:49 AM   #1
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Carpets from Bulgaria

My brothers, I am from a country far way, in the south-east corner of Europe, called Bulgaria. Here I will post you some of our traditional carpets which are very close to yours. I am sure that our ancestors were very very close and we share one heritage that bonds us trought centuries and many miles. Look:






















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Old 01-21-2011, 08:32 AM   #2
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Are you trying to say that just because several groups (out of 100s) of native americans make rugs and that your ancestors make rugs, that they are both from a common ancestor?

Because that would be an incorrect assumption.
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Old 01-21-2011, 11:14 AM   #3
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Hmm... nope not even close to my people's...

I have yet to see a European made rug that can make the perfect circle within the weave.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:34 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowa_Boy View Post
Are you trying to say that just because several groups (out of 100s) of native americans make rugs and that your ancestors make rugs, that they are both from a common ancestor?

Because that would be an incorrect assumption.
Not just the rug my brother, but the pattern. These patterns are traditional here in Bulgaria and not commone neighter ti rest of Europe or Asia. I am not a wannabe, my brother. I am proud of what I am, but I clearly see an ancient connection between our ancestors. We are Slavs and in the past we lived near Siberia where may be we had communicate with your ancestors and take their designs.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:38 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Bulgarian View Post
Not just the rug my brother, but the pattern. These patterns are traditional here in Bulgaria and not commone neighter ti rest of Europe or Asia. I am not a wannabe, my brother. I am proud of what I am, but I clearly see an ancient connection between our ancestors. We are Slavs and in the past we lived near Siberia where may be we had communicate with your ancestors and take their designs.
rug making was not in your past when you lived in siberia, you developed it later. Stop with the brother. The connection you see is not real, very few native groups in north America make rugs anyway, and in terms of time, it is more recent for most of them. Wow, we both breathe air, we must be brothers. Your working this alittle too much.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:50 PM   #6
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rug making was not in your past when you lived in siberia, you developed it later. Stop with the brother. The connection you see is not real, very few native groups in north America make rugs anyway, and in terms of time, it is more recent for most of them. Wow, we both breathe air, we must be brothers. Your working this alittle too much.
I will not stop with brother because I feel all humans as brothers. Please do not attack me. I said that not the rugs are important but the pattern of them. The pattern is what survived trought the centuries
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:33 PM   #7
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I will not stop with brother because I feel all humans as brothers. Please do not attack me. I said that not the rugs are important but the pattern of them. The pattern is what survived trought the centuries
thsoe patterns are basically found throughout the world. This is a site about dancing, I would suggest you reach out to a site that is about rugs or art (if the patterns are impt, they will be discussed in art forums).
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:49 PM   #8
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Sorry again Bulgarian, but your culture is made up by Turks, Bulgars, Thracians and the Slavenae and the Antae. Your country has been invaded by Romans, Greeks, Persian and the Thracians were absorbed or expelled. The Slavic invasion were from the Slavenae and Antae who were from the region of the Dnieper and Dniester Rivers (that would be Ukraine and not Siberia as you stated).

I would suspect that the patterns you are trying insist on being one and the same with native patterns are in all likelihood, arising from the conquering Romans or Greek's empires (or even the Ottoman Empire).
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:59 PM   #9
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Also, considering that the ancient trade routes criss-crossed through that area, symbols and expressions mixed-in with local cultures.

Probably a few Irish wandered through there, didn't find any bars and kept going! LOL
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:30 PM   #10
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The fifth one down looks like it can cruise at high altitudes.
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:44 PM   #11
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:46 PM   #12
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These are very nice. The patterns a similar to those seen in most cultures that weave. I know that in late 1800's our beadwork patterns were influenced by women who looked at the Caucasus rugs that were so fashionable in white homes and were inspired to improve on those design elements.

There are similarities in all cultures' designs. The human visual cortex has a fondness for processing certain patterns, making us comfortable with common elements in all our visual languages. However, it is risky business making deep connections between the art of distant peoples.

It is Old World hubris to assume your history is objective and true, and mine is subjective and myth. Your worldview does not trump mine. My people's stories say we came up out of Wind Cave. There is no land bridge in the middle of the Black Hills.

Many of us look askance at efforts to connect us to the Siberia steppes. We fear that you wish to invalidate our claims to land and culture by connecting us to the Old World. It seems that once you can call us immigrants, you can help yourselves to our ways and usurp our hold upon this land.

Last edited by OLChemist; 01-21-2011 at 11:25 PM.. Reason: Grammar -- not just a good idea.
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Old 01-22-2011, 06:35 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
These are very nice. The patterns a similar to those seen in most cultures that weave. I know that in late 1800's our beadwork patterns were influenced by women who looked at the Caucasus rugs that were so fashionable in white homes and were inspired to improve on those design elements.

There are similarities in all cultures' designs. The human visual cortex has a fondness for processing certain patterns, making us comfortable with common elements in all our visual languages. However, it is risky business making deep connections between the art of distant peoples.

It is Old World hubris to assume your history is objective and true, and mine is subjective and myth. Your worldview does not trump mine. My people's stories say we came up out of Wind Cave. There is no land bridge in the middle of the Black Hills.

Many of us look askance at efforts to connect us to the Siberia steppes. We fear that you wish to invalidate our claims to land and culture by connecting us to the Old World. It seems that once you can call us immigrants, you can help yourselves to our ways and usurp our hold upon this land.
My dear brother thank you about wise and good words. I want to make you sure that I and most of my people support you in your claims of land and culture. We know what is your land to be taken, your homes burned, your women raped and your children killed. 500 years our lands were ruled by the bloody Turks and we had very similar experiance to the Native people of the Americas. In 1876 AD there was a rabelation against the Turks and they slaughtered ten thousands of bulgarians. When they invaded Bulgaria in the 14th century we were 2,5 milions. 50 years later we were no more than 180 000. Our culture is not influeced by Turks because we lived separated with them and most of us went to live in the high mountains and we kept our culture.
I am not a wannabe my brothers. I just love you and want to be your friend. Yes I am white, but not all white nations are the same. My nation never took foreign land, we always waged wars to liberate our lands taken by others. Please let me be your friend.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:48 AM   #14
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My dear brother thank you about wise and good words. I want to make you sure that I and most of my people support you in your claims of land and culture. We know what is your land to be taken, your homes burned, your women raped and your children killed. 500 years our lands were ruled by the bloody Turks and we had very similar experiance to the Native people of the Americas. In 1876 AD there was a rabelation against the Turks and they slaughtered ten thousands of bulgarians. When they invaded Bulgaria in the 14th century we were 2,5 milions. 50 years later we were no more than 180 000. Our culture is not influeced by Turks because we lived separated with them and most of us went to live in the high mountains and we kept our culture.
I am not a wannabe my brothers. I just love you and want to be your friend. Yes I am white, but not all white nations are the same. My nation never took foreign land, we always waged wars to liberate our lands taken by others. Please let me be your friend.
Yeah they are!
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Old 01-22-2011, 11:33 AM   #15
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I just love you and want to be your friend.
As a Native woman on this forum, I have heard this kind of thing often. I find myself wondering several things:

First, how can these strangers love me? They don't even know me. What I find they really love is a highly romanticized idea of what they think I am. And when I want to talk about my cats or the latest article from the Journal of Materials Research rather than religion or nature, they get disappointed. When I am not the mystical Indian willing give them generations of accumulated cultural knowledge, their reaction is less than loving. And after they get done calling me a disgrace to my ancestors, they move on to some New Age wannabe that will sell them the bill of goods they want.

Secondly, I wonder how would they feel if the only reason someone wanted to be their friend was their ethnic identity? That approach ignores almost everything about me as a person. I become just a ethnic caricature for their collection.

If you're willing to approach people on this forum as people who happen to be Indians, rather than as Indians, I suspect you will find a few friends.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:13 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
As a Native woman on this forum, I have heard this kind of thing often. I find myself wondering several things:

First, how can these strangers love me? They don't even know me. What I find they really love is a highly romanticized idea of what they think I am. And when I want to talk about my cats or the latest article from the Journal of Materials Research rather than religion or nature, they get disappointed. When I am not the mystical Indian willing give them generations of accumulated cultural knowledge, their reaction is less than loving. And after they get done calling me a disgrace to my ancestors, they move on to some New Age wannabe that will sell them the bill of goods they want.

Secondly, I wonder how would they feel if the only reason someone wanted to be their friend was their ethnic identity? That approach ignores almost everything about me as a person. I become just a ethnic caricature for their collection.

If you're willing to approach people on this forum as people who happen to be Indians, rather than as Indians, I suspect you will find a few friends.
Why do you think that I am such a person? I am an open minded perso who has friends from many places. I have lived and been in many countries and I met a lot of people and I made good friends. I just want do meet and communicate with people not because of their ethnic background. Life is not only spiritual things, life is your cat, life is weather, life is many things. I said, my nation is not like other white nations. Only thing I want is little hospitality......
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:30 PM   #17
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My dear brother thank you about wise and good words. I want to make you sure that I and most of my people support you in your claims of land and culture. We know what is your land to be taken, your homes burned, your women raped and your children killed. 500 years our lands were ruled by the bloody Turks and we had very similar experiance to the Native people of the Americas. In 1876 AD there was a rabelation against the Turks and they slaughtered ten thousands of bulgarians. When they invaded Bulgaria in the 14th century we were 2,5 milions. 50 years later we were no more than 180 000. Our culture is not influeced by Turks because we lived separated with them and most of us went to live in the high mountains and we kept our culture.
I am not a wannabe my brothers. I just love you and want to be your friend. Yes I am white, but not all white nations are the same. My nation never took foreign land, we always waged wars to liberate our lands taken by others. Please let me be your friend.
Kurdish people have a similar history, one of my coworkers came from Kurdish territory in Turkey, he often points out their oppression and treatment is much like the history of aboriginal peoples in the Americas.

I still remember the anger I felt when Saddam Hussein gassed the defenseless civilian Kurds, and the United States Gov't just stood by and watched. That was pure genocide that would have justified a military response and Saddam's arrest for war crimes.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:48 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
As a Native woman on this forum, I have heard this kind of thing often. I find myself wondering several things:

First, how can these strangers love me? They don't even know me. What I find they really love is a highly romanticized idea of what they think I am. And when I want to talk about my cats or the latest article from the Journal of Materials Research rather than religion or nature, they get disappointed. When I am not the mystical Indian willing give them generations of accumulated cultural knowledge, their reaction is less than loving. And after they get done calling me a disgrace to my ancestors, they move on to some New Age wannabe that will sell them the bill of goods they want.

Secondly, I wonder how would they feel if the only reason someone wanted to be their friend was their ethnic identity? That approach ignores almost everything about me as a person. I become just a ethnic caricature for their collection.

If you're willing to approach people on this forum as people who happen to be Indians, rather than as Indians, I suspect you will find a few friends.
I just love you cuz u use words I have to google to kick all these dumb people's *** that come on here n say they love you!

Wanna talk cats?

Note: The 3 asterisks are for A S S!
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:52 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
As a Native woman on this forum, I have heard this kind of thing often. I find myself wondering several things:

First, how can these strangers love me? They don't even know me. What I find they really love is a highly romanticized idea of what they think I am. And when I want to talk about my cats or the latest article from the Journal of Materials Research rather than religion or nature, they get disappointed. When I am not the mystical Indian willing give them generations of accumulated cultural knowledge, their reaction is less than loving. And after they get done calling me a disgrace to my ancestors, they move on to some New Age wannabe that will sell them the bill of goods they want.

Secondly, I wonder how would they feel if the only reason someone wanted to be their friend was their ethnic identity? That approach ignores almost everything about me as a person. I become just a ethnic caricature for their collection.

If you're willing to approach people on this forum as people who happen to be Indians, rather than as Indians, I suspect you will find a few friends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmigoKumeyaay View Post
Kurdish people have a similar history, one of my coworkers came from Kurdish territory in Turkey, he often points out their oppression and treatment is much like the history of aboriginal peoples in the Americas.

I still remember the anger I felt when Saddam Hussein gassed the defenseless civilian Kurds, and the United States Gov't just stood by and watched. That was pure genocide that would have justified a military response and Saddam's arrest for war crimes.
Yes, Kurdish people have similar destiny as Bulgarians. I am sure that your Kirdish coleage knows about Bulgarians and knows that we are not like the rest of the white nations.
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