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Old 08-07-2012, 04:03 AM   #1
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Questions remain in murder/suicide

Hey look! Another person killed in a senseless 2nd Amendment Death.

Geez...

I'm very sorry this occurred.

NOTE: this message was, appropriately, moved from its original forum to this one in an example of excellent moderation. I was very tired and frustrated at initial posting and apologize for my lack of couth. This sort of things just makes me SO mad and 4:00 AM negates filters normally in place.

Why, beyond the senseless loss of life, am I so upset? Because the Belgian FN Herstal used was originally restricted by FN to military and law enforcement customers. Its a weapon designed to do ONE THING, and the gun lobby got it admitted to this country.

I have no idea what specifically occurred in a home in WI, nor do I have any idea what happened in a theater or a Sikh temple but -- by all means -- lets make it easier for such things to occur by allowing the proliferation of high capacity weapons across our nation...

That's the point I meant to make and I made it very, very poorly. Again, I apologize.

Last edited by Zeke; 08-07-2012 at 10:13 AM.. Reason: Moved out of Memorials
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:04 AM   #2
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Questions remain in murder/suicide

http://www.wiscnews.com/reedsburgtim...a4bcf887a.html

The Reedsburg Police Department and neighbors on Maple Street are still trying to understand the chain of events that led to the deaths of two relatively quiet young people over the weekend.

What police have ascertained is that at some point Friday morning, George Reuben Snake, 24, shot and killed his girlfriend, 23-year-old Cheyenne T. Fiddler, and then turned the gun on himself, committing suicide.

The bodies were discovered by an unidentified friend at about 7 p.m. Friday.

It is believed the two were involved in an argument and that alcohol was involved that morning, police said.

“We don’t know anything else,” said Reedsburg Police Chief Tim Becker. “We know an argument occurred.”

Becker said police questioned neighbors, none of whom heard anything unusual. No one even claimed to know the two very well.

Becker said he believed Snake and Fiddler were dating, and that she had recently moved into the residence from her home in Red Wing, Minn.

Snake had been living at the house with his sister for a short time.

Fiddler had a small daughter who was not in the residence at the time of the shooting. Becker said the daughter was with a babysitter, and Snake and Fiddler were the only two at home at the time of the shootings.

Becker said the little girl now is in the care of Fiddler’s family.

Bill McKenzie, a neighbor who lives two doors down from the residence, said he knew of no one in the neighborhood who really knew Fiddler or Snake.

McKenzie said when he saw them outside, they appeared to be happy.

“The night before this happened, I was in my backyard,” McKenzie said. “There was a teenage boy and a little girl about 4 years old with them, and they were laughing and looking like a really happy family.

“They seemed like wonderful family people. There was no evidence this was about to happen.”

McKenzie, who was at home Friday morning, said he and his wife heard no sounds coming from the house. He said his neighbor, who lives directly next door, reported hearing nothing Friday morning.

Relatives of Fiddler were contacted by the Times-Press, but none have returned any calls to this newspaper.

Snake’s Facebook page might contain a photo of the murder weapon: an FN 5.7 28-millemeter gun, or a Belgian FN Herstal, similar to a .22 pistol.

Becker said the murder weapon was a .22.

Snake’s page also shows several photos of what appears to be friends and family members, and only a few recent posts.

Fiddler’s page shows few recent posts, but she had more than 1,200 Facebook friends.

She was a champion Native American dancer. who had won first place in the 2012 Gathering of Nations Pow Wow in the Northern Cloth division.
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:29 AM   #3
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My prayers are with the families for their loss. With that said I will go on and say that this is not a second amendment issue regardless of the make and model of firearm used! It's more than likely a continued abuse of alcohol which,unfortunately,is perfectly legal, but seemingly disproportionately and overly abused. They make it against the law to have mind altering drugs,but do nothing about the abuse of one of the most mind altering substances and more often than not it leaves us in shock and mourning ! If it hadn't been that particular gun it might have been a ball-bat.....the end result is the same.
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Old 08-07-2012, 12:21 PM   #4
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Perhaps here but not in a crowded theater or Sikh temple.

Sure, someone can commit murder with a pen (although it is much harder to kill yourself). That said, you don't see the red flag "coincidence" of someone initiating a murder suicide being in long-term possession of an unique, foreign, controversial, formally illegal and expensive piece of citizen fantasy hardware designed specifically to efficiently kill people?

We should have made him use the pen by maintaining appropriate vigilance and 2A review.

That may have changed outcomes.
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:06 PM   #5
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Guns are available....legally
If you ban the weapons , only the criminals and the military will have them. At that point we all become subjects and no longer citizens.
Do I agree that we need super high powered,high volume weapons....no
Do I think the second amendment allows us to possess these weapons....yes

"That said, you don't see the red flag "coincidence" of someone initiating a murder suicide being in long-term possession of an unique, foreign, controversial, formally illegal and expensive piece of citizen fantasy hardware designed specifically to efficiently kill people?"

Can you ultimately detect who and when someone might snap and plan a murder/suicide ? You just said this person owned this weapon "long term"
Does this mean that beings I have owned guns for 40 years , I must be planning something ? Ludicrous ! No one can see what's in these peoples minds and when you add the alcohol factor , all bets are off.
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They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





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Last edited by wardancer; 08-07-2012 at 03:44 PM..
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Old 08-07-2012, 04:29 PM   #6
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My pryers and condolences are with the Fiddler family and all who are saddened by this tragedy.

With that said, @wardancer hit the nail on the head - Criminals don't follow the law, thats why they are criminals. If something is illegal someone will figure a way to get it. Think about the prohibition period. During that time the mafia expanded in numbers and power because they figured out how to smuggle in and distribute alcohol. It created more criminals. It also created NASCAR...

England banned all guns and took them away, do you know who has guns in England now? The criminals do!

If at the time of the Aurora, CO shootings guns were illegal and then the perp would have just made bombs... in fact he did make bombs and rather nasty ones at that. Can you imagine the amount of damage that could have been done if he detonated a few pipe bombs instead of using a gun that jammed? A point onto that, drum magazines like the one he had are notoriously unreliable, so making a point to outlaw high capacity magazines is also ridiculous. In fact it's been proven that firing a gun in full auto is not accurate.

I worked for a number of years on a show that chronicled real crime and the nastiest murders of all were those committed by means other than guns. There were cases of brutal stabbings, axe murders, bombings, strangulation, beatings by hammers, lengthy and torturous deaths by poisons, and even a case where a guy tried to kill his neighbor by spiking his soda with a chemical used to cause liver cancer in lab rats.... The point I'm making is that if guns are illegal there are so many more ways to kill people, and even lots of people. In your own house you probably have the supplies lying around to build a few bombs, a "garage gun", or even to make a toxic gas.

Willie Wonka also has something to say:

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Old 08-08-2012, 02:22 AM   #7
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Quote:
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Does this mean that beings I have owned guns for 40 years , I must be planning something ?
No. It means that, statistically, you're much more likely to be killed by a gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox
England banned all guns and took them away, do you know who has guns in England now? The criminals do!
And yet their gun deaths are SO much lower than ours.

Wardancer desires to blame alcohol for what occurred. (I'm fine with that.) I don't know what to blame because I wasn't in the room although alcohol has, at times, caused me to act in ways I normally would not. Sum? Anything is possible.

But it's much less likely our victim is dead if a gun is not involved.

GUN DEATH STATISTICS.

Listen to those figures again and try to sell that reasonable gun control DOESN'T prevent death.
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Old 08-08-2012, 06:24 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Listen to those figures again and try to sell that reasonable gun control DOESN'T prevent death.
The key word here is REASONABLE

Why on earth would someone need some of these weapons if they are using them to Hunt with?? They suck as a weapon for game but against your fellow man well now thats a different story...

I grew up in a house with weapons around me at a very early age I learned to field strip a M1 rifle and knew what end would kill
But we had weapons in our house because we hunted and yes in a pinch we could very easily defend our home a 12ga will very nicely put an end to any home invasion...

But I think the weapons race has gone on for too long
Why on earth would you allow weapons to be built that only cost 25 dollars and fall apart after just a few firings and who would want one (Yeah can you say gang member)??
Or 30 round clips for a Hand Gun??? The list is endless on what any person can gather with a few clicks of a mouse
And lets talk ammo thousand and thousands of rounds enough that if your house caught on fire it would knock down the whole city block WHY???

As a nation we pride ourselfs on our Gun laws but have we gone too far???
When did we start needing weapons for home defense that a militia in a 3rd world country would want?? or for that matter better equipped than they are??
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Old 08-08-2012, 10:25 AM   #9
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Well , I too grew up with guns. Hunted all my life and I'm proud to say , very efficiently.Like I said earlier:
"Do I agree that we need super high powered,high volume weapons....no

Do I think the second amendment allows us to possess these weapons....yes"

I agree that the public has no reasonable need for high capacity magazines.

The point I'm trying to make is that no reasonable person , in their right mind , would ever do the things that have made the news here lately.
From the reports I've seen (news and newspapers) 2 of the offenders were mentally unstable , and the subject at hand were under the influence of alcohol.
I've filled out the gun buyers form for background checks. Obviously if you lie on the form and have no prior record , you can buy a gun legally. So find a way to link mental records with the FBI's background check.
As far as a murder/suicide.....well, it's going to happen whether you control all the guns or not. If someone is in a state of mind to do it , they will find a way. You can not tell me that gun control would have stopped this act. He would have stabbed her or beat her or choked her , etc , etc....
By the way , I'll have to look for them , but I've seen stats that say where they've taken away all the guns reports of crime have gone up ! and people who held onto a weapon, in one instance a shotgun , the man defending his home from a known intruder in England , was prosecuted , convicted, and sentenced to prison , for defending his home during a break-in !
So all the gun control that could be put in place will NOT stop gun deaths. Criminals will still have them and the law abiding citizens will be at their mercy !
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They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





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Old 08-08-2012, 12:20 PM   #10
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Quote:
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No. It means that, statistically, you're much more likely to be killed by a gun.



And yet their gun deaths are SO much lower than ours.

Wardancer desires to blame alcohol for what occurred. (I'm fine with that.) I don't know what to blame because I wasn't in the room although alcohol has, at times, caused me to act in ways I normally would not. Sum? Anything is possible.

But it's much less likely our victim is dead if a gun is not involved.

GUN DEATH STATISTICS.

Listen to those figures again and try to sell that reasonable gun control DOESN'T prevent death.
Ok so you outlaw guns or take the guns away from everybody, including criminals... then you will see a statistics for murders via means of knives, blunt objects, and bombs increase. In 2011 England had just over 7,000 firearms related offenses. A small fraction of those ended in a fatal injury. Some of those the gun was shown and a threat was made but ended without the gun being discharged. Others the injuries were not fatal. So if firearms are illegal in England then that means that the only people who have them and are using them are criminals, their average civilian can't protect themselves. Page 63 of this official PDF: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...AlS0oqqR6nftCg

Another point, do you what type of person is more likely to be killed by a gun? Other criminals! I lived in "Killadelphia" for a good 16 years or so. When the topic of murder came up on the news, an everyday occurrence, it was usually gang or drug related, only here and there would it be from something else like a husband finding his wife in bed with another man or from a rapist or a botched robbery attempt.

As for trying to limit how many rounds of ammo someone can buy, it's just absurd to think that it can be controlled. Just like in NYC where they are trying to ban large soda sales, nothing is going to stop the person from going up to buy more or walking to another store to buy more. Great idea on paper but it fails in the real world.

Lets look at California for a second. In CA to be legal an AK-47 must have no more than 10 round mags and a special lock that prevents quick changes of magazines. A bank robber or someone out to do some really nasty crime is going to:
A: Cut off the device that prevents quick magazine changes.
B: Go to Arizona or Mexico and buy large capacity magazines.
Criminals don't care about gun laws when they plan to use a gun in the commission of a crime.

If I understand it correctly AR-15 type rifles don't have the similar law in CA regarding a magazine lock, but the 10 round magazine law is still in effect. Regardless, I personally can change the magazine in an AR-15 or similar platform in seconds. Drum magazines jam very easily, hence the reason why the Aurora, CO, shooter only got a few rounds off from the rifle before he switched the a handgun.

Do I think 30 round magazines are a bit over the top for a handgun? Yes, but trying to ban them is stupid because they will just enter the black market or someone will figure out how to make them on their own, after all they are just a folded piece of metal with a spring and a follower.

Want to stop gun crime or cut it down drastically then we need to make the BATFE do it's job and go after criminals who break gun laws. They need to go after people who engage in straw purchases, amongst other things.
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Old 08-08-2012, 01:35 PM   #11
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Ok so you outlaw guns or take the guns away from everybody, including criminals... then you will see a statistics for murders via means of knives, blunt objects, and bombs increase.
Possibly. And how effective are those in open spaces?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah
The key word here is REASONABLE
Yes. And we can debate over what that is.

But the idea that the 2A, by definition, implies unfettered access to whatever anyone desires is singularly ludicrous.
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Old 08-08-2012, 02:14 PM   #12
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Possibly. And how effective are those in open spaces?



Yes. And we can debate over what that is.

But the idea that the 2A, by definition, implies unfettered access to whatever anyone desires is singularly ludicrous.
Depending, they can be ineffective or largely effective. A pipe bomb can cause a massive amount of damage because it disperses shrapnel everywhere... imagine a big shotgun shell sending "shot" everywhere at a much higher velocity. Also a bomb like the one used in OKC can be do a ton of damage and that was made from materials obtained at a farm supply store and packed inside of an innocent looking box truck. Toxic gasses are dependent on a variety of things and knives and beatings would largely be based on direct confrontation or surprise. The guy in Colorado had bombs at his house, had he chosen them over the gun (if none was available) the amount of lives taken that day would have been enormous. As WD said, someone who is bent on killing is going to find a way to do it, or at least try.
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Last edited by Toolbox; 08-08-2012 at 02:16 PM..
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:44 PM   #13
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Yes well this debate will go around and around

Its the access to these types of weapons that anyone that is just hunting game would never use...

And yet under the 2nd Amendment all these weapons are made and cheerfully sold to the public in mass quantities scary quantities don't get me started talking about some guys at work that keep thousands and thousands of rounds at there homes for "just in case"...

I agree that banning them all is not the answer for if someone really wants the weapons they will get them.
But we are not talking about criminals are we.

These last two guys both purchased them Legally
On-line and in person the weapons they used.
They did the waiting period everything nice and legal because they wanted to stay under the radar. Which anyone that is planning something like this would do, nice and legal Background check is good, money in hand and they could buy anything!

I say if they did not have access to the weapons so easily and the types of weapons and military gear, would it had turned out differently??
Picture this: either one of those guys walking into those places with a single shot squirrel rifle would things turned out differently???
Yep
Much easier to dodge one bullet than 18! And the Colorado shooter his weapon jammed which is why he switched to a Handgun otherwise the kill ratio would have been much higher!

And no I don't think open carry is the answer either, their is way too many trigger happy people out there as it is...

Debate away
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Old 08-08-2012, 10:53 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
But we are not talking about criminals are we.


Picture this: either one of those guys walking into those places with a single shot squirrel rifle would things turned out differently???
Yep
Much easier to dodge one bullet than 18! And the Colorado shooter his weapon jammed which is why he switched to a Handgun otherwise the kill ratio would have been much higher!


Debate away
Well , I think we are talking about criminals....and/or would be criminals.
I have my squirrel rifle.I have a .22 semi-auto rifle that holds 19 rounds. In the right hands it would be just as deadly ! And rarely jams.....
further more as far as pistols go , one of the more popular is the age old favorite :M1911 pistol
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The M1911 is a single-action, semi-automatic, magazine-fed, recoil-operated handgun chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge,[1] which served as the standard-issue side arm for the United States armed forces from 1911 to 1985. It was widely used in World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. The M1911 is still carried by some U.S. forces. Its formal designation as of 1940 was Automatic Pistol, Caliber .45, M1911 for the original Model of 1911 or Automatic Pistol, Caliber .45, M1911A1 for the M1911A1, adopted in 1924.

Capacity: 7+1 rounds (7 in standard-capacity magazine +1 in firing chamber); 8+1 in aftermarket standard-size magazine; 9+1 in extended and high capacity magazines[47]. Guns chambered in .38 Super and 9 mm have a 9+1 capacity. Some manufacturers, such as Armscor, Para Ordnance, Strayer Voigt Inc and STI International Inc, offer 1911-style pistols using double-stacked magazines with significantly larger capacities (typically 14 rounds). Colt makes their own 8 round magazines which they include with their Series 80 XSE models.


The original intent of Zeke's post was to blame this particular death on a particular weapon. That just doesn't fly in my book. And he admitted himself that under the influence of alcohol he had done things he would not normally do. I still assert that if the murderer that committed suicide had not been drinking , that this horrible instance would not have happened.
The rest of you may debate on.
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Last edited by wardancer; 08-08-2012 at 11:03 PM.. Reason: changed my mind
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:06 PM   #15
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One more tidbit of information:
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Old 08-09-2012, 02:36 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by wardancer View Post
The original intent of Zeke's post was to blame this particular death on a particular weapon. That just doesn't fly in my book. And he admitted himself that under the influence of alcohol he had done things he would not normally do. I still assert that if the murderer that committed suicide had not been drinking , that this horrible instance would not have happened.
The rest of you may debate on.
Not precisely accurate regarding my intent but I stand by alcohol having impacted my behavior. (If you're going to analyze, step one is truth.)

Here's the rub. As drunk as I have been ever in my life, I either woke up covered in vomit, with an ugly woman (vomit would have been preferable) or with a black eye given by a friend because he "saved my life from someone who would have done more than punch me."

No, I cannot promise the unfortunate girl would be dead if her assailant was sober. I can tell you that, with a gun used as a weapon, she's dead if its introduced whether sober or not.

The issue, is the GUN.
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Old 08-09-2012, 02:47 AM   #17
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One more tidbit of information:
Nice propaganda find. Seriously, at face value, it is a compelling argument.

But it doesn't really withstand scrutiny due to Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

Gun control (What guns? To what extent? Enacted when? To what degree of implementation? To what penalty?) is NOT why ANY of that occurred.
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:24 AM   #18
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Hey look! Another person killed in a senseless 2nd Amendment Death.
Because the Belgian FN Herstal used was originally restricted by FN to military and law enforcement customers. Its a weapon designed to do ONE THING, and the gun lobby got it admitted to this country.
Come on Zeke....This is a quote of what you said and I think it calls out a particular weapon. Now you are crawfishing to include all weapons. That's not like you.
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:29 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Nice propaganda find. Seriously, at face value, it is a compelling argument.

But it doesn't really withstand scrutiny due to Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

Gun control (What guns? To what extent? Enacted when? To what degree of implementation? To what penalty?) is NOT why ANY of that occurred.
Let's use an example of a fictional television show to make a point in real life.....
Come on , you are much better than that ! Point not valid !

I think common sense will prevail , and I stand by my opinion.
__________________
I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:36 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Not precisely accurate regarding my intent but I stand by alcohol having impacted my behavior. (If you're going to analyze, step one is truth.)

You know as well as any that all drunks are not created equal.
When I was a drinker, and I WAS , I got all lovey dovey. Some drunks get crazy and others get mean. Some black out and do things they don't remember the next day.....
I still stand by my opinion and I believe totally that if the gun hadn't been involved it still would have happened.
__________________
I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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