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Old 04-05-2020, 03:13 AM   #1
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Smile i need to know where to post these subjects

Hi

Let me introduce me shortly

I'm a european born and living in the, so to say, "old continent"

at first

i'm 60, ...when i was 18 i had a vision, (very disturbing experience for a western mind)...i'd like to know where you might suggest me to post to have feedbacks for such experiences

at second

i'd like to suggest a debate about tolerances you natives might have developed in the consumption of sacred plants, (assimilated in western culture as "hallucinogenic drugs",) similarily to the toxicologic tolerance europeans and africans have developed in consuming alcohol

i just underline that apart of cannabinoid products 30 years ago by now, i never consumed one of these hallucinogenic drugs (or assimilated, my culture as you know doesn't concieve a sacred use of them)

Sincerely yours

Alexandre Borcic
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Old 04-09-2020, 02:02 AM   #2
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Alexandre, you may not realize it, but you are making some very broad generalizations in your post, and doing some stereotyping, also.

Indian Nations are like Europe-there are many nations, each with their own language and beliefs. As far as feedback on your vision, you would get many variations membership here varies. Cheyenne will give different feedback than Apache will, and so on.

As for hallucinogenic drugs, that's where the stereotyping is coming in. Again, many beliefs, many practices, but it is not the norm to use drugs like that. Native Americans have some of the highest rates of addiction of any ethnic group.
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Old 04-10-2020, 12:01 AM   #3
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Well ...please, accept my apologise, let just say that apart from western africa, i never went away from europe at any moments of my life, so these mistakes might be very likely unavoidable,i hope it might change with the time...

"Native Americans have some of the highest rates of addiction of any ethnic group."

...that's too bad, but i'm convinced it the case of has absolutely nothing to do with those included with your numerous sacred practice, but only the recreative use of drugs, including alcohol, that induce addictions

About the vision i had, let say that i had an early feedback when Sky Hawk from the Lakota Nation (sorry,...correct me if needed )that listen to me and has been very surprised when he realized i told him the truth, as far as i could judge, more at things that shown through than from what i said...

let say also that seven years later, i've been categorized as schizoid man and from that date living with an invalid rent,...but i'm still persuaded this is a culture bounded perception, western world usually consider that such visions without object (in frensh "perception sans objets") are ONLY a symptom of a pathology

i had also many feedbacks from western african cultures, if you don't mind i'll tell you what when on...western africa is my only serious experience of a different vision of life and cosmogony, than mine

So please tell me frankly, if you think i'd better not insist in posting in your forums, i'll understand
,
...against my heart and self-esteem ...but don't worry, i'll understand !

Peace

Alex
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Old 04-12-2020, 07:28 PM   #4
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You might get info on the two branches of the native american church. Their use is not recreational but worshipful.
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Old 04-12-2020, 08:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ches View Post
You might get info on the two branches of the native american church. Their use is not recreational but worshipful.
Please refrain from commenting on things you know nothing about......please !
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





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Old 04-12-2020, 09:00 PM   #6
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To the O.P. , there are a few subjects that are off limits in this forum ! It creates hard feelings and much discourse when they get discussed.One is our over 500 different tribes belief systems. Some would say religions ! Another is our personal beliefs sometimes generalized as cultural beliefs. Either of these subjects will quickly get out of hand ! Then add in a few things that are never discussed in public and especially to non-natives , then you can see how it could get ugly fast. There are other forums out there that are geared more to what you are seeking.Thanks
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 04-13-2020, 03:25 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wardancer View Post
There are other forums out there that are geared more to what you are seeking.Thanks
yes you're right, very likely better so...

Would you please, if possible, give me links to these forums you're talking about, then be sure that i won't bother you anymore

Peace

Alex
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Old 04-13-2020, 06:28 AM   #8
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I am sorry. War Dancer. I apologize. I am an idiot.
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Old 04-13-2020, 11:05 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandre Borcic View Post
yes you're right, very likely better so...

Would you please, if possible, give me links to these forums you're talking about, then be sure that i won't bother you anymore

Peace

Alex
As I don't associate in those types of forums , I can't help you. Sorry
Someone on here may , but I wouldn't count on it !
__________________
I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 04-13-2020, 11:19 AM   #10
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I am sorry. War Dancer. I apologize. I am an idiot.
I don't think of you as an idiot. I think you are ignorant when it comes to native issues.
I think it's good that you are trying to reconnect and learn your tribe's language. That's a start But throwing out the occasional Shawnee word in an English sentence is just retarded ! Anyone that doesn't speak or write Shawnee has no clue what you're saying and probably don't care. I could start spouting off some Cheyenne words , but 1. You wouldn't understand them and 2. You couldn't pronounce them correctly. Then , even if you put the definition out there , if you miss pronounce it then it's not the same meaning !
I know you are an "older" but I don't believe for a minute , that when it comes to native culture , that you are an "Elder".
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 04-13-2020, 02:13 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wardancer View Post
As I don't associate in those types of forums , I can't help you. Sorry
Someone on here may , but I wouldn't count on it !
never mind

thanks for your cordiality whatsoever...

peace

Alex
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Old 04-18-2020, 11:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandre Borcic View Post
Hi

Let me introduce me shortly

I'm a european born and living in the, so to say, "old continent"

at first

i'm 60, ...when i was 18 i had a vision, (very disturbing experience for a western mind)...i'd like to know where you might suggest me to post to have feedbacks for such experiences

at second

i'd like to suggest a debate about tolerances you natives might have developed in the consumption of sacred plants, (assimilated in western culture as "hallucinogenic drugs",) similarily to the toxicologic tolerance europeans and africans have developed in consuming alcohol

i just underline that apart of cannabinoid products 30 years ago by now, i never consumed one of these hallucinogenic drugs (or assimilated, my culture as you know doesn't concieve a sacred use of them)

Sincerely yours

Alexandre Borcic
You must have had a european vision. The only part european to have a vision was Ray Levoi and that was almost 30 years ago.
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

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Old 04-19-2020, 02:52 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
You must have had a european vision. The only part european to have a vision was Ray Levoi and that was almost 30 years ago.
well let just say that i was 18 ears old when it happened in 1977, now i'm 60 years old ...but never mind !

if you ever think it can make sense i can try to describe what i saw, what happened around and what are my own extrapolation about this experience ?

As you wish, i really don't want to impose myself one way or another ...

Peace

Alex

P.S. I saw the movie "thunderheat" from Michael Apted...So this means that Ray Levoi and his visions related in the movie were real ? ...perhaps romanced because it's a hollywood movie, ...but real ?

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Old 04-19-2020, 06:28 PM   #14
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Mr Borcic, you need to understand about Indian humor. There is a little gentle teasing going on.


I was going to sit on my hands but I can't seem to stay seated. So, here I go again. (Regulars pardon the cut and paste job from OLChemist's stock answers.)

First, a little background to help understand the sarcasm and hostility that tends to erupt over these types of inquiries: Modern Native people are the survivors of the end of the world. For 500+ years, Native ways have been attacked, suppressed, punished and damn near erased. Land, language, culture and lives were lost. The survivors buried 50-90% of their tribes. Now, their children are fighting to preserve the remnants, battling the culture vultures who steal pieces of Native religions and lifeways, twist them into grotesque shapes, then sell the battered fragments to make themselves rich. So, not surprisingly many of Native people are weary and sometimes less than patient.

Native intellectual and spiritual traditions do not have their roots in the same soil as those of Europe. The European understandings of intellectual property and cultural patrimony are very different from those of all the Native peoples I know. Our peoples have different modes of sharing and transmission of knowledge. There is some knowledge that cannot be shared with the outsider or the uninitiated without physical and metaphysical consequences. You don't trifle with the sacred or even speak too casually about these things.

Please understand Native spiritual ways have long and deep roots. They are woven into the ethos of our peoples and their traditional land base. They are almost always linked to language and kin. It is nearly impossible to understand these ways, without understanding the language. The symbolic content is intimately intertwined with ethos. Thus, when Hollyweird and the dominant culture try to interpret (or depict) the vision experience, they frame it within their framework, including a bias toward confounding spiritual contact and communication with schizophrenic or drug induced hallucinations.
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Old 09-23-2020, 11:47 AM   #15
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To OLChemist and the othe administrator that had the kindness to answer me :

First of all accept my apologize being so late to answer you on this peculiar topic, let say also that I appreciate, in the contrary of what being told me, the courtesy you've shown in your answers

About "a bias toward confounding spiritual contact and communication with schizophrenic or drug induced hallucinations"

You may be right, but I cannot reduce my experience to the expression of a mental deceases or induced toxicology because some aspects of their content were too relevant or realistic to be reduced as the only expression of a pathology or another,

yes I was consuming marijuana, …but never did consume anything stronger in my entire life !

This event happened when I was just 18 (in June 1977 !!!) , on a bridge right over the junction of two big rivers in the town of Geneva in Switzerland were I live

These rivers BTW called «*le rhône*» and «*l’ arve*», the first one being the exit of a local lake (Lac Léman) the other coming-out of the mountains, and having during all year very cold waters

Let just say again that many aspects of what I saw made sense to me only in retrospect,

At about 11h00 in the evening, after watching the light of a cigarette thrown in the night from the middle of a bridge my eyes stood focalized 30 meters below on the water’s surface when I suddenly had a shock and turned my eyes in front of me …

I saw the shadow of a man coming in my direction through the bridge as he was agitatedly walking to my direction

Then, when he went progressively closer to me, he seemed to me as being in conflict with his own imagination, I’d say like tormented by a fantasy he tried to refrain without success, so his face was bustled by numerous twitches before he took his arm on his eyes and dissapeared through the chest of somebody walking through the bridge right before me …

It lasted about 30 seconds

Many month later when I was, on another bridge of the town, watching distractedly during the day my own shadow on the water’s surface with the sun on my back, moving towards the transparent and tormented waters, I realize that it was very similar to what I saw a few month earlier during the night

Like my own shadow, my eyes being accurately focalized through the darkness, at the level of the waters, where the light of the cigarette disappeared when touching the waters, in my vision the shadow was like animated by the flooding waters …but this I realized it in retrospect, a few month later

Also what I interpreted as nervous twitches on my vision, I saw this many years later in real life, a same reaction of retaining an undesired fantasy, in a more edulcorate manner but totally similar

...just in case, being talking about framework : this being a honest and as transparent as possible report of what I saw this night, you can sincerely trust me…

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Old 09-27-2020, 12:06 PM   #16
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@OLChemist

«*Mr Borcic, you need to understand about Indian humor. There is a little gentle teasing going on*»

well, I should have supposed this, so thanks for your tolerance. I don’t bother too much because it should be predictable, and legitimate at a degree I’m afraid I’m still deeply unaware

«*Modern Native people are the survivors of the end of the world.*»

I see, this description just speaks for itself…

For 500+ years, Native ways have been attacked, suppressed, punished and damn near erased. Land, language, culture and lives were lost. The survivors buried 50-90% of their tribes.

…and this is none at the honor of my root culture, nothing to be proud of

Now, their children are fighting to preserve the remnants, battling the culture vultures who steal pieces of Native religions and lifeways, twist them into grotesque shapes, then sell the battered fragments to make themselves rich.
So, not surprisingly many of Native people are weary and sometimes less than patient*»


Again totally legitimate,

…so it is of my responsibility to prove the minimum of humility, honesty and probity, nothing that I expect to be assumed spontaneously about me, don’t worry : Even if I was the most sincere person in the world it’s obvious for me that you’ll need to stay mistrustful, just because I’m a white man, profiled by a culture that is directly responsible of the anihilation of yours …and you are not the only ones, I know it quite well, living part time in western Africa , I’ve observed how an invading culture has deleterious consequences towards local ones, things are changing slowly on that respect, but it’s still present and natives from black Africa are mostly unaware of their own cultural alienation
For instance, criterias of education (or even beliefs) that are relevant for white people aren’t for any other natives of the world, so I think they need to africanise their scolarisation at all degree…but this being in digression to the topic, in the future I may come back with my experience of traditional Africa

I’ll be back to answer point by point and in a detailed manner to your administrator OLChemist…but I’m afraid being a bit rusty, my English too, to give you a feedback at this level of intelligence

Other post should follow,if you don't bother, and i hope you don't

Peace

Alex
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Old 09-27-2020, 12:29 PM   #17
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Alex , we try to accept everyone at face value , first impressions you know. Even in group settings one will tease , with a joke or a comment and we all observe the reaction. That helps us decide the sincerity in which you come. The distrust will always be there because of our experience with outsiders , but that's also true among the different tribes as well !But with that said , if we didn't like you at all , we wouldn't even tease you ! Good luck in your quest !
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 09-27-2020, 12:34 PM   #18
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"But with that said , if we didn't like you at all , we wouldn't even tease you ! Good luck in your quest !"




thank you ...



"The distrust will always be there because of our experience with outsiders"


Absolutely legitimate,...could be harsh to me at first but i can't blame you

i might find something that have a real value of honesty to your criteria, but it's likely too early for that

Let just say this

I'm treated as nothing but a social case in my society

...and in the area of western africa i use to live a part of my life (Bobo-dioulasso, Burkina Faso) natives africans deplore that someone like me is nothing but "un sans-voix" in it's society

I assume that behind the strong reserve you're showing to me, the accurate reflect that has been telling to me earlier :

"There is some knowledge that cannot be shared with the outsider or the uninitiated without physical and metaphysical consequences. You don't trifle with the sacred or even speak too casually about these things."

...so just thanks you for considering me and take the time to answer me to enlighten my mind, ...even sparsely !!!

Last edited by Alexandre Borcic; 10-01-2020 at 03:39 AM.. Reason: to underline an answer that approve an important assertion
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Old 09-28-2020, 11:17 AM   #19
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sorry, double post

Last edited by Alexandre Borcic; 10-01-2020 at 03:42 AM.. Reason: double post to erase
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Old 09-28-2020, 11:51 AM   #20
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If you don’t mind, Let me just talk of other aspects of my experience

Without debating of life’s circonstances, I experienced the wind taking to me

…as inanimated objects and nature around me were warning me, making me understanding words and assertions, before somebody would physically telling them to me

Even in the worst moments moments of my life, during a supposedly pure schizophrenic, hallucinatory delirium, In an awaken nightmare I saw through TV a famous french commentator of the eighties (called Noelle Mamère, in 1983 more precisely) that seemed while watching me, to transmit his thoughts like «*don’t try to make-believe you’ve ever played until there*» (…In frensh «tu ne vas pas nous faire croire que tu n’as jamais joué jusque la» ...this in parallel with what he was indeed speaking in his commentary)

…and this happened before a few days later when someone told me word for word, the same assertion towards me

Just to be explicit they were talking about sex practices my society and even my relatives couldn’t admit I was unaware of them, and still making me a slinking a vicious war about it…. and it made decades before I realize WHY I didn’t understand what they were talking about, my mind being literally kept virgin of any kind of fantasy related to anal sex, so any allusion about it implying my imagination to complete the message stood mysterious
And this reflects exactly what happened at these times and still happens: a society and even relatives, incredulous and rather hostile, disturbed and totally unable to admit my innocence ?

Terrifying experience…

So many decades later in Burkina Faso when a native from the Bwaba tribe,(called Yorossi Traore) told me he had in his possession a drug that makes you understand the language of the turtledove,…he hadded then something that made me trust him:

«not that they suddenly begin to talk but that their coo are suddenly making sense and comes to your mind as self-consistent phrases»

When the wind talks (…or if you allow me, somehow transmit foreign thoughts to your mind), it sound just turn itself into something intelligible,

…this reveals a similar cognitive process

Even what happened to me during severe psychotic decompensation, in this experience the will I had to see and feel what people have in their heart, has grown so intense in my senses that it has become intelligible, as if they tried to share directly their harsh incredulity to me,

...also a similar cognitive process after all

I might very easily understand that schizoid assertion that would say about such experience that they have received telepathic messages from people on TV (…and at a certain degree in my heart that’s the way I’m thinking even if I’m reluctant to admit it to myself)

In fact i needed to make an attempt though known elements of my culture, to try to give sense to the perceived phenomenon , at many aspects my experience cleary matches a psychotic experience, but

1) isn’t schizophrenia (as well as some other mental diseases), culture-bounded syndromes in their way, related to the western world culture, so existing only inside a society in where both patient and healer are sharing the same belief ?

As an example : the woman who has been my second wife was younger, suffering of a severe diseases called «*Djina Bana*» in his root cultures of subsaharan Africa (that means «*sickness of the Djinns*») this way before I marry her, I helped his father to pay and organise the rituals of his root culture, intended to know the intentions of the Djinns and then, depending their personnality throw them out, or keep and work with them if they aren’t badly intentioned, (so the patient become himself a healer),...in her case his father decided to chase them away because her daughter would have to cut the throat of chickens and sometimes bigger beast like goats or even cows in their rituals

…you know, this is Africa !

2) The medical concept of hallucination respond to some criterias

a - first you see something that doesn’t exist (except for you),

b - then you’re totally persuaded of the reality of what you see,

c - and finally you see and live a completely erroneous experience

…but as I told you, the content of my presumed delirium wasn’t such erroneous and unrelated to facts of usual life and
worse than that : I’m not persuaded the medical team that oblige me to stood under neuroleptic treatment during years before I finally refused it weren’t aware of what they were predictably animated (you know : «*don’t try to make-believe, etc, etc…)

Many things have been said today

A big thank you for your tolerance, i just hope there is here matter of exchange, this being a lifetime experience, or almost !
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