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Old 09-25-2006, 01:34 AM   #41
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I agree with "Who Me"

I don't think there is room for a variety of interpretations. At a younger age I was not sure of particulars....As I grew up I had learning experiences. In certain instances I sat and listened to people I.E. relatives and respected knowledgable folks. If people just go ahead and take it upon themselves to assume something, well the age old saying applies.....Although isn't it worth it to take appropriate steps and sanction or adopt the appropriate style? Growing up I certainly made mistakes and i'm bound to continue, but its a learning experience. If someone asked me about Chicken dancing I would refer them to someone who I felt possessed that knowledge. Well good luck....
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Old 09-28-2006, 02:59 PM   #42
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Men in tights........men in pink tights at that......think about it


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Old 09-28-2006, 05:57 PM   #43
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ok

Regardless of the importance of the histories behind the style then, it has changed dramatically and will continue to as with everything. The thing to ponder on is the rememberance of how it all began. If we don't know where we came from and how we began, then we won't know where we're going. I for one have respect for the societies that uphold their ways with this style and am humbled when I see the dance performed the way it should. I am also offended when I see the neon and bling that make it look like a freak show in the circus including the jingle dress dancers. It won't go back to the old way, but one good thing is that the "trend" will change...eventually.
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Old 09-28-2006, 10:35 PM   #44
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To clear up any misunderstandings

Whome

Let me better synthesize my statements, I do get rowled up. I wasn't saying that Blackfeet people didn't have a right to an opinion. I think that everyone has a right to an opinion. I also think that no one has authority over another person. So I say let those chicken dancers dance the way they want. They are dancing for money anyways and they aren't neccassarily dancing for the same reasons the Blackfeet do in their societies. I think a lot of Blackfeet are speaking up now because they are getting beat and they do not have say over who wins. However, in matters of competition, their tribal membership does not give them the right to take authority over anyone, especially in the sacred circle, where we are all free.
I respect this dance, and I would dance it from my heart. I think that is the only way one can dance. But this business of dancing getting out of hand....its partially fueled by jealousy and I don't think that we should lose sight of that when we take these matters into consideration. I just ask that you think about the intentions of the opinion givers. We can give and hear opinions diplomatically, as best we can in this given language.

Aho
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Old 09-29-2006, 04:41 AM   #45
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chicken dance again.

Well ur right everyone as there right to there opinion.. I was talkin to some older guys not even blackfoot people like my self. They said the same it would be nice to see more guys dress and dance old style. its a straight dance like traditional with different moves the fancy outfits don't get me its the dancin like grass and fancy dancers really outfits are outfits everyone express themselves by there outfits.. but if u look at the best of the best in chicken they outfits are more old style and wat not but they just dance contemp.. I think if there going to continue this we should just split it up old style and contemp like everything else should be how can u put a contemp dancing against old style.. lol u can't plus i think that people themselve should learn how to judge most people don't know how to judge chicken dance let alone anything else.. lol look at there faces to see who it is not there feet and body to see if there dancing in time and with the right movements. theres my peice .. Nitsiniiyiitaki for listening to my opinion.. aho.
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Old 09-29-2006, 06:22 PM   #46
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splitting up

even if there is a splitting of the category, there are still going to be those saying what is traditional according to their way tribally. just like the jingle dress dancers, there is a split at some pw's, but even the tradish jingle isn't really tradish according to where it came. The competition pow-wow tradish will just have less bling and be less out of hand than the contemporary. As long as they are dancing for money, regardless of being tradish or contemp, they are still going to be trying their best to get noticed by the judges - hence, dancing a little harder to stand out. It's not bad, it's dancing for money, jackets, trophies, and trips, right? It's a whole different scene when you talk about tribal ceremonies and rites of passage, etc. That is what the majority of pow-wows are nowadays, who can have the biggest prize money up and the best prizes are going to draw more dancers. Change is inevitable.
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Old 10-02-2006, 01:14 PM   #47
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?

Unfortunately some folks seem to attend some bunk powwows.....I've seen some good Chicken Dancing lately....
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Old 10-02-2006, 03:35 PM   #48
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LOl u say it doesn't matter if they split them up in contemp and straight well it does from my point cause its a straight dance like traditional is so how can there be a difference in tribe to tribe. u only use chicken moves not grass not fancy not jingle not crip walkin just chicken dance moves,..lol i seen people use all that kinda of stuff. i think it would make a difference and i think we need people who know how to judge it not just chicken but all categorys all this favortism and stuff got to stop to.. but just my opinion. And yes pow wow does change a lot of dances and yes its not going to stay the same but i know alot of old school singers even say it would be nice to see more old style dancers out there representing in that good way.. aho
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Old 10-02-2006, 05:28 PM   #49
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Chicken Dance Tribunal....

I feel the need for a Chicken Dance Tribunal...Yes, then we can get to the bottom of everything....
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Old 10-02-2006, 06:51 PM   #50
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I feel the need for KFC.....


oh yeah, chicken dancers, yep, thass right..uh, I know that there are societies and what not, but in our teachings, society dances are strictly to remain at Sun Dances and ceremonies. So........this form of chicken dancing that we see at powwows is an intertribal/social dance, hence the evolution of various styles: the acclaimed "ol style" and the contemporary with pink tights and what not.

My preference is the ol style, but that is my preference. If I am asked to judge a chicken dance, persay, the hell yeah I'm prolly gonna pick the ol style dancers. Those judges that like the flashy pink tights and loud movements will pick those dancers and hell, you can't blame them; those dancers are out there given it their all, loud movements and colorful and some down right hard dancing. I can appreciate that...juss not on my scorecard.

It's a tough category to judge and dance. Hell, my fat @$$ tried it once, even! And that was the last time that did it! But, therein is my appreciation and justification for making any commentary.
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Old 10-03-2006, 10:06 PM   #51
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First off , I'm not an authority on anything but my family has been dancing and singing at powwows/celebrations/gatherings/Indian dances/wacipi (or whatever you want to call them) before there was really ever any contests & big time money associated with them. I remember seeing the old style chicken dancers back in the 1960's and then I virtually seen it disappear with a few exceptions just like the grass dance. ( so I can appreciate the old style of chicken dancing, in fact I prefer that style over what is called contemporary).

But getting to my point, none of the dance categories you see at the pow wows are "tradish or old style" per se, cause most of these were associated with a ceremony, society or traditional victory or warrior dance and they wouldn't have been performed as a contest. So the most you can say, is the dancers most closely resemble the original dance form. So if someone was really tradish in their style, they would belong to a particular society or it would be done in a ceremony and not at the powwow dance arena anyway. The pow wows themselves evolved from an evolution and amalgamation of these various societies/ ceremonies. I guess what I'm trying to say it that as Native peoples our culture has to evolve to some degree otherwise it would become a dying culture or a culture under glass. Hobbyist could say the same about our "tradish" pow wow outfits now. (you know those ones that look liked they stepped out of a historical photo, hell some of them even tan their own hides, use only certain colors, and sew with real sinew, etc.) They try to mimic and replicate our native clothing from the 1800's and the early 1900's, but somehow we don't embrace it the same because it doesn't have the same native feeling, soul and/or spirit.

The thing that led to our demise was the fact that we couldn't identify as being one people and therefore, we lost our lands -- one nation, war or treaty at a time. The contemporary powwows of today are the few times we can collectively express our pride in being Native even though it might not really be something our ancestors did or even though we may not be aware of it. So while I think there should be an attempt to keep it real, I also know that contemporary dancing is what allows us as Natives, First Nations, Indians, Skins, etc. to think of ourselves as being one people. So I hate to judge too harshly those who take the dances and want to adopt them. We wouldn't have powwows if we kept it truly and exclusively tradish.

I do believe though, that people should know what the actual dance and regalia looked liked, but just like our ancestors a couple of generations before us, they used whatever they could find as part of their outfits. Whose to say they wouldn't have used the bling and the neons if they were available. In fact I remember a real old grass dancer in the 60's who did indeed, have some bling on his headband that secured his roach. Ever wonder why you see old pictures of the grass dancers with sleigh bells down their legs, just like the old style round bustle dancers. (Even your beadwork, we'd still be wearing just skins, shells, deer hoof, and porcupine quillwork-- now come on admit it, how many times have you seeing someone wearing that kind of outfit, and pretty much dismissed them as a pow wow newbie, unless it was all porcupine quilled accessories --that'd be cool) N-E way, Native people didn't have glass beads we only started using them when those white guys began using them as trades/bribes, etc. Same with those snuff can lids and now we have pre-rolled jingles, made exclusively for the pow wow dancer, lol)

I'd be great though, if all powwows had enough money to separate the two categories (old style and contemporary), then at least our young would know the difference. But you know how we love to complain, then we'd be saying we only got one song or there were two categories going on as the same time so the judges really couldn't see our best moves, or if we had them all and everyone got two songs, then we'd be complaining about how the pow wow went on and on or it got over the next morning, sheesh. (But you know you guys luv them, despite the controversies!!! lol) So just another opinion..... on the prairie chicken dancers, to me their still cool to watch, whether it be old or contemporary style!!!
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Old 10-04-2006, 02:36 PM   #52
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i feel the same

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1800s_indian
Who agrees? Chicken dancing has joined the many other exploited dancing styles, tainted by cash payouts. Tribal people from all over are trying to copy a style of dancing that they know little about much less how is should be danced. Judges perception of the dance style is skewed by mainstream or popular dancers attempt to dance this style. This contemporary view pushes traditional chicken dancers to the wayside, and just like the contemporary traditional dancers of today, the face painting, the outfits and the dance steps are over exaggerated. Traditional ways are replaced by blurs of neon dancers flailing and contorting their bodies about the dance area. The moves of the "contemporary" chicken dancer are mostly grass dance and fancy dance hybrids. It is good to see chicken dancing and round bustle dancing make a comeback, but not in this way

I agree with you also 1800s_indian. I think that we sometimes get lost in the times and try to make things better than they previously were. I think that instead of trying to be better or worse we should stick to the true goal behind our celebrations....which is essentially trying to keep our heritage and our ancestors' ways the same. We cannot do that if we mix the modern day with the past. Performing the chicken dance and other dances and rituals is one of the ways we keep our heritage and customs alive.

I feel what you're saying 1800s_indian!
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Old 10-04-2006, 02:42 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndn_thyme
First off , I'm not an authority on anything but my family has been dancing and singing at powwows/celebrations/gatherings/Indian dances/wacipi (or whatever you want to call them) before there was really ever any contests & big time money associated with them. I remember seeing the old style chicken dancers back in the 1960's and then I virtually seen it disappear with a few exceptions just like the grass dance. ( so I can appreciate the old style of chicken dancing, in fact I prefer that style over what is called contemporary).

But getting to my point, none of the dance categories you see at the pow wows are "tradish or old style" per se, cause most of these were associated with a ceremony, society or traditional victory or warrior dance and they wouldn't have been performed as a contest. So the most you can say, is the dancers most closely resemble the original dance form. So if someone was really tradish in their style, they would belong to a particular society or it would be done in a ceremony and not at the powwow dance arena anyway. The pow wows themselves evolved from an evolution and amalgamation of these various societies/ ceremonies. I guess what I'm trying to say it that as Native peoples our culture has to evolve to some degree otherwise it would become a dying culture or a culture under glass. Hobbyist could say the same about our "tradish" pow wow outfits now. (you know those ones that look liked they stepped out of a historical photo, hell some of them even tan their own hides, use only certain colors, and sew with real sinew, etc.) They try to mimic and replicate our native clothing from the 1800's and the early 1900's, but somehow we don't embrace it the same because it doesn't have the same native feeling, soul and/or spirit.

The thing that led to our demise was the fact that we couldn't identify as being one people and therefore, we lost our lands -- one nation, war or treaty at a time. The contemporary powwows of today are the few times we can collectively express our pride in being Native even though it might not really be something our ancestors did or even though we may not be aware of it. So while I think there should be an attempt to keep it real, I also know that contemporary dancing is what allows us as Natives, First Nations, Indians, Skins, etc. to think of ourselves as being one people. So I hate to judge too harshly those who take the dances and want to adopt them. We wouldn't have powwows if we kept it truly and exclusively tradish.

I do believe though, that people should know what the actual dance and regalia looked liked, but just like our ancestors a couple of generations before us, they used whatever they could find as part of their outfits. Whose to say they wouldn't have used the bling and the neons if they were available. In fact I remember a real old grass dancer in the 60's who did indeed, have some bling on his headband that secured his roach. Ever wonder why you see old pictures of the grass dancers with sleigh bells down their legs, just like the old style round bustle dancers. (Even your beadwork, we'd still be wearing just skins, shells, deer hoof, and porcupine quillwork-- now come on admit it, how many times have you seeing someone wearing that kind of outfit, and pretty much dismissed them as a pow wow newbie, unless it was all porcupine quilled accessories --that'd be cool) N-E way, Native people didn't have glass beads we only started using them when those white guys began using them as trades/bribes, etc. Same with those snuff can lids and now we have pre-rolled jingles, made exclusively for the pow wow dancer, lol)

I'd be great though, if all powwows had enough money to separate the two categories (old style and contemporary), then at least our young would know the difference. But you know how we love to complain, then we'd be saying we only got one song or there were two categories going on as the same time so the judges really couldn't see our best moves, or if we had them all and everyone got two songs, then we'd be complaining about how the pow wow went on and on or it got over the next morning, sheesh. (But you know you guys luv them, despite the controversies!!! lol) So just another opinion..... on the prairie chicken dancers, to me their still cool to watch, whether it be old or contemporary style!!!
[email protected], isn't that just what I said; only in two paragraphs.

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Old 10-04-2006, 08:37 PM   #54
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does anyone even know how oldstyle is even done?

c'mon now.....some people think its wearing bustles around your legs and arms.
and one more thing there is no such thing as contemp chicken!!!

im also kinda disappointed that alot of grass dancers are just going out there and grass dancing with a bustle on.....but thats all i have to say for now.
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Old 10-05-2006, 05:35 AM   #55
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Quote:
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does anyone even know how oldstyle is even done?

c'mon now.....some people think its wearing bustles around your legs and arms.
and one more thing there is no such thing as contemp chicken!!!

im also kinda disappointed that alot of grass dancers are just going out there and grass dancing with a bustle on.....but thats all i have to say for now.
and what do you know about chicken dancing? how are you the expert?


flatheads just know everything huh?
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Old 10-05-2006, 05:40 AM   #56
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chicken chicken and more chicken tribunal

Lol guys got a point long time ago chicken was simple.. No hip bells, no bustle.. just shirt with some plums, 7 i think...lol breiche cloth, and bells, roach, and feathers real simple.. u know leg band and arm bands.. but it was simple.. that my point. well just thought i post that.. U know everyone got different was of lookin at it. but oh well.. pow wow made it what it is that how pow wow is and if ur pow wow we live it.. it would be nice to see more old style dancers even if its just dancing old style. well that all.. lol laters.. kitakitakmahtsin aapinaakoosi, cause i know someone else will post something lmao.
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Old 10-05-2006, 03:02 PM   #57
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Ahhh...got some callin out on the carpet goin on...hmm.

Good call on the someone else postin something!

Kiniitsiipitasuyips Kiitessokapi Mr. Niitsitapi!

Hey, on my Napi CD, track 1 and 9 are the same!!
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Old 10-05-2006, 08:42 PM   #58
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lol why you going at the flathead blood for? im mostly cree and blackfeet!!! but anyways he is right about the old style thing, the last old style chicken special i seen was held by leonard mountain chief's family at browning ndn days back in 1996, i remember guy fox and my dad both placed in it. no bustles just straight up fast chicken songs from big corner post singers(bruce wolfchild's group)
4 songs before they picked they're winners.
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Old 10-06-2006, 05:56 PM   #59
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I like that style with the otter fur breastplate. It looks good to me - the other way just looks too much like Crow style too me.

Man, that breastplate is sharp. I should get one.
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Old 10-06-2006, 07:52 PM   #60
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Cliff SiJohn put on a chicken dance exhibition special at the Couer D'Alene Casino Powwow last March. It was supposed to be based on the original style with two rows of guys dancing toward each other, with two warbonnet dancers posted to symbolically watch over them (who didn't dance but just stand behind each row with their warbonnets donned). I don't know a whole lot about the societies nor how accurate the history was taught by the exhibition, but it was a good show and it did at least seem to make some people think, "wait a minute where do these styles come from and what do they really mean?" And just by that, maybe the special it did its job.
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