[Wojapi4Me]

Nez Perce people - I'm telling you guys...rein this in or it'll get out of hand...its actually already out of hand, and I fear you guys may quickly loose control over this song and dance.

Here in the east, I've already heard three different newly composed Duck N' Dive songs. At first I thought they were just screwing the song up, but when I inquired about it was told it was a new composition. So, there ya go.

[RedShield]

Singerdad... I could not agree with you more!

I've heard all sorts of stories about the song since I came back east, and 95% of them wrong... way I was taught, there shouldn't be any more duck and dives composed there is ONE... no more, if you think you you have the right to recompose it, you better ask the nez perce elders, and I hope they say no!!!

There are too many songs out there that are traditional to specific nations that are rapidly being lost because some singers/composers feel they are cool enough to compose new songs to replace some of these songs without taking the time to learn what they are about, or the history of the songs they feel they have a right to replace with their new compositions... there are some songs that should be LEFT ALONE, and respected for what they are and the story behind it.

Just my opinion.

Paselo

[Ndnsoldierboy]

This song to me, is and has always been a Veterans Song. And no one else should dance to it unless your a Veteran.

[littleredblanket]

Amen SoldierBoy....I whole heartedly agree with you.

[kneegrow_native]

This past weekend at Julyamsh a guy named Nakia Williamson, Nez Perce was speaking for the head man dancer special, another Nez Perce Indian. One of the songs used was the Duck N Dive.

Before the song Nakia broke it down for everyone. I won't even try to restate what he said there because there is no way I could do it justice. He really impressed the hell out of me with what he had to say, by breaking down to the moment, the history of the song and how it used to be danced and when it was danced.

[ntownn8ive]

He said pretty much the same thing that HB said in the first post, about the song commemorating the 1877 Battle at Bighole...

He speaks pretty good Niimiipu, too

Good words, good words, IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiii

[1badazzndn]

Originally Posted by RedShield

I've heard all sorts of stories about the song since I came back east, and 95% of them wrong... way I was taught, there shouldn't be any more duck and dives composed there is ONE... no more, if you think you you have the right to recompose it, you better ask the nez perce elders, and I hope they say no!!!

Red shield- FYI there are at least 3 original duck n dive songs. Two are very common, the third doesnt get sung that much

[heartbeat]

Originally Posted by 1badazzndn

Red shield- FYI there are at least 3 original duck n dive songs. Two are very common, the third doesnt get sung that much

If there are 3 then, what can you tell me of the other two... What is the story behind them, the significance..? If you know of these songs and sing them you should know the history of them and explain who passed them to you. Songs get passed around haphazardly nowadays it is better to know these things than get it second hand from another that got it from a tape recorder.
There are a number of songs that make there way around. it is up to the people to not abuse them. For example, There is another Nez Perce Song that has made it's way down to the east. but the interesting thing about this was that group that sung that song explained it was passed to members of thier family in the late 1800's from the Nez Perce durring the occupation of Indians at the Okalhoma concentration camps. but that is another story, for another time.
That is how you keep your traditions alive, and keep them from getting thrown into a melting pot of one color. Identity is the strongest thing that we can have.

[1badazzndn]

Originally Posted by heartbeat

If there are 3 then, what can you tell me of the other two... What is the story behind them, the significance..? If you know of these songs and sing them you should know the history of them and explain who passed them to you. Songs get passed around haphazardly nowadays it is better to know these things than get it second hand from another that got it from a tape recorder.
There are a number of songs that make there way around. it is up to the people to not abuse them. For example, There is another Nez Perce Song that has made it's way down to the east. but the interesting thing about this was that group that sung that song explained it was passed to members of thier family in the late 1800's from the Nez Perce durring the occupation of Indians at the Okalhoma concentration camps. but that is another story, for another time.
That is how you keep your traditions alive, and keep them from getting thrown into a melting pot of one color. Identity is the strongest thing that we can have.

The first one, isnt sung with down beats, just the two dnd beats in each half of the verse

The second one is sang straight on the first half of each verse. On the second half of each verse, there are four down beats before the first dnd beat.

The third is rare-Ive only heard it once or twice. Passed along by Sarge Old Horn.

Sorry this sounds crazy, if i had a way to record, I would

From what I was told, all three of these versions share the same root and go back to that historic battle.

[hahtalekin]

a story was once told to me from an elder about the duck and dive song.

he told how the song (nimipu/palus version) came to be used for purposes other than for honoring veterans.

the story is about a young man who returned from war,which war he didn't specify,i am assuming it was WWI or WWII or possibly the korean conflict. anyway upon his return to his home, (i believe he may have been talking about nix yow ii or lapwai since the elder grew up in both locales) the people had a celebration to honor the return of one of their warriors. a dinner was held in his honor and a dance was also held.

as the dance was going on this young man put on his outfit,which was the old style round bustle of the people around here. as the young man came out to dance the singers i believe wanted to pay respect to this young man as he was a veteran and they sang the duck and dive to honor him as a veteran. and the elder says it seems to him that ever since then that the duck and dive has been used in association with the men dancing and kind of adapted its way into todays pow wow as a mens traditional (warriors?)song (not all men dancing have served in the armed forces,should they be honored with this song???).

the elder also expressed to me that he feels the song should not be mistakingly used for a chicken dance song. our people have a chicken dance song that we dance to,the elders call it the combination song,this song has all the beats(shake,straight,"crow"hop).now thats a song the person^ who mentioned a song with a mixture of beats, would like!!!

it cannot be said that only one tribe has "THE" duck and dive, as almost each northern plains(crow,cree,blackfeet,hidatsa) and plateau (nimipu,palus,yakama,umatilla,warm springs,spokane,CDA) tribe have a duck and dive and that each song has its own story of origin.

but all in all as an old style round bustle/chicken dancer i myself believe that the NW rendition of the duck and dive should not be used in the chicken dance specials or catergories. also if the other tribes who take care of a duck and dive song that is used to honor veterans, i feel that their duck and dive song should not be used either.

i wonder what it would be like if all the dancers who feel this way in their hearts truely,didn't dance to this song during the contest, but remained standing at the outer edge of the dance floor, to pay respect to the great ones who deserve the respect of this song. what might the judges think anyway( i can only imagine)????? i thought about that a time or two during a chicken dance special. if ya watch,many if not most of the dancers don't know how to dance the NW duck and dive style anyway, to my elders and myself that is disrespectful, but each dancer is interpreting "HIS WAR" story.

maybe many of you who are acquainted with people who sponsor chicken dance specials,or pow wow committees that have a chicken dance catergory you may want to express to them that many people feel that these songs should not be used for that catergory or special.

like everyone here says give respect to the people who gave us these freedoms to gather and celebrate, and sing these songs and dance these dances. the most respected of all, our people who first met and welcomed the whiteman, who in turn brought war upon our people.these people who gave their lives without provocation, these are the real veterans. no disrespect to our veterans of the last century or this century whatso ever!!!

take care everyone, may the creator watch over you and your families, be strong, keep it real~Kermit.

yox kalo,inim himyuma ka lawtiwama. thats how ya say it!!!!!!!

[heartbeat]

I'mim ci'qin t'acnix. e'wepcukuytimse kaa i'mim tim'inepe

Qe'ciyew'yew hahtelikin,
Kuxkux

[billyjoejimbob]

Hey, who flamed me and took away a bead?!?

Just because I used lakota words doesnt mean Im Lakota. Its the first songs that came to my mind that should not be used for competition.

A-ho. (the A is a LOOOOOOONG A in this case)
and imagine this is a middle finger.

C'mon and fess up. Lots of krap talk but nothing being said.

[Ndnsoldierboy]

Originally Posted by Mato Winyan

What I'd like to know.......what's wrong with passing a song? Me being an "oldster" I'm seeing that being done less and less anymore. If the committee hired a Northern drum as host and wants other songs sung............. let em hire a Southern drum to do em. Is it a matter of money or what? It just really does not make sense to me. I wouldn't hire a Baptist minister if I wanted last rites said for my dad. I wouldn't care if he could write his version of em or not.

What's wrong with teaching our younger ones this is our style and we're sticking to it? I really worry what things will be like in another 25 yrs....... 50 yrs........ etc. Anyone that has painted with oils knows that when you keep adding and changing and rearranging that after awhile you make the paint what they call "mud". It's all mixed up and you can't tell what colors were ever in it. That's how I see the powwows going.

Whoever said singing the Duck n Dive for a chicken dance or any other type of style is wrong. Its a VETERANS SONG. End of Discussion. No one should dance to this song except VETERANS. I don't think its right for anyone to dance to this song...only vets can.

[Ndnsoldierboy]

I guess all these so called singers don't know that. So I'll say it again, Duck n Dive is a VETERANS song and not a chicken dance song.

[Nezbah]

Originally Posted by Ndnsoldierboy

I guess all these so called singers don't know that. So I'll say it again, Duck n Dive is a VETERANS song and not a chicken dance song.

I whole heartedly agree with the NWesterners on this story. After living in Lapwai for 2 years (yeah I was dating a Nez Perce at the time) and going to Chief Josephs Powwow, including all the NW powwows, that story is the one that has been told. I am Dine' but I still teach my son the stories that were told to me by the Nez Perce elders. He was only 3 at the time we were living there. However, the one thing I always appreciated about the Nez Perce elders, they always took the time to tell the stories, no matter what tribe you came from. They guard their history and keep telling it to the little ones so they can pass it on to others. Even though I love our Navajo history, but to be able to have other tribal history with you in heart is valuable enough.

What these guys are saying is true but the one thing that makes me giggle is that some of the duck n dive songs that are sung are more 'dip' songs. I wonder which singers know the difference...... The only few times I have heard the duck n dive song sung right was in Lapwai, Moscow, Pullman, or Couer d'alene powwows. And that song was sung for only mens tradish. Don't get me wrong the dip song is hard and furious..LOL. But you have to hand it to the true duck n dive song.....ohhhhhhhhh thats a nice one.

I have even seen a Nez Perce elder come over to other drums givin them the 'eye' for singing that song inappropriately and wrong. Soooooooo be careful when ya singing that song, that 'eye' said it all....... :D Some of you, know what I mean..... haha.

[Ndnsoldierboy]

When I come back to WA state, I'll be the FIRST NEZ PERCE to do this....This Labor Day Weekend 2006, if it happens @ Wellpinit, WA I'll the 1st one to say something. I'll the one in dress blue uniform...if I get booted from the powwow, cause of it, @ least I got my point across.

And singers are supposed to their STUFF about traditional SONGS...apparently they don't.

THIS IS A VETERANS SONG ONLY!!!!