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Old 01-18-2013, 12:56 PM   #21
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Elo, you seem to have totally misunderstood my statements and arguments. No where did I or anyone here state that the government would become tyrannical and a heavily armed militia would break down the doors of every gun owner in the country. You're right the second amendment won't be removed but it is appearing that with new bans based on irrational fear are going to diminish it. How would you like to be told that your freedom of speech doesn't protect you from speaking bad about the president? That would be a diminishing right.

Relaying the stats and figures for the gun deaths was only to debunk the idea that most of the deaths were criminally related. Most were suicide. That proves that we have a severe problem with the care of people with mental health issues in this country. Something everyone can agree on, including the NRA. As for it sounding as if I, or anyone quoting the criminally related deaths, as something to just let go by the wayside because criminals are scum is incorrect as well. The argument still holds true that if someone wants to kill someone they will find a way to do it. I remember years ago someone was murdered a few blocks away with a sledge hammer. My brother's friend was nearly killed when he was beaten with an axe handle. People are stabbed, run over, poisoned, beaten and strangled. The simple irrefutable truth is that at the end of the day we are merely animals, though highly intelligent, and as such we have violent tendencies. Have you ever gotten angry at someone or something and started to lash out, even if it was just throwing something across the room? Some of us are better equipped mentally to control how violent we get when something gets our adrenaline and the stress hormone cortisol pumping. It's simple biology. Guns are just a tool. Again if not guns someone will use something else.

I will give you the fact the NRA has some extreme views and can at times foam at the mouth. I'm not a member of the NRA or plan to be for that matter, I just see no need. As for the giving a grade to politicians on how well their stances align with the views of the NRA well that is really meaningless because every organization does it to some extent. Activist groups for pro choice and pro life, the environment and a host of other causes do it.

Again the other irrefutable fact is that there are way too many guns in the country, more than there are people in fact. Some banning things or limiting things without removing whats already on the streets isn't going to have much effect and that was proven with the ban that was in place from 1994 to 2004. Also rifles and shotguns only make up a small portion of gun deaths, most are handguns - a fact that even Obama stated during his town hall presidential debate vs Mitt Romney.


By the numbers for year 2011. 2012 numbers don't come out for several months.
Handguns: 6,220
Rifles: 323
Shotguns: 356
Other*: 97
Not Stated: 1,587

*Other means uncommon weapons such as smooth bore pistols and combo rifle shot guns. Also could mean "garage guns", but they may be listed as Not Stated".
Source: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...e-data-table-8

With that in mind, tell me how banning semi-auto rifles will drop the gun death numbers down when most are handgun related suicides?

We do need to take some actions and as I have said most of it is going to be caring for mentally ill and removing laws and roadblocks that prevent the enforcement of the current and new laws. Some of the roadblocks were created by the NRA. We also need to work on improving the education system and the economy we need to take real world proactive approaches to dropping the crime rate in all areas and more specifically urban areas with extreme levels of poverty.

I hope everyone understands that I'm not trying to sound like a foaming out the mouth guns on every corner nut job. I'm just stating the real facts about firearms. Yes they do kill people and animals, I'm not denying that. All I'm trying to say that this media blitz and fear mongering over semi-automatic rifles is total BS because they only account for a small number of deaths each year and more so a lot are just ordinary hunting rifles.

If we ban guns we might as well ban alcohol. Alcohol related deaths, excluding accidents and homicides in 2010 was 41,682. Alcohol related traffic deaths was 10,228. Of the 1,210 children killed in accidents 211 were due to a drunk driver. 1.4 million arrests for DUI. http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafet...factsheet.html
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/alcohol.htm

You see what I'm getting. Alcohol has a limited legitimate purpose, outside of that it's a drug, it impairs people's judgement and a fraction of it's users while intoxicated on it end up killing innocent people. The same concept can be applied to guns. They have a limited legitimate use (hunting, defense, & sport) I'm not for banning alcohol (prohibition) that didn't work in the 20s and it wouldn't work today. As well I enjoy a drink here and there. We did get NASCAR from it though.



***Sorry if it seems as if I'm jumping around between years when sourcing stats but the years given are the most recent I can find doing a quick search as opposed to digging through the FBI's and CDC's websites.***
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:35 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
I hope everyone understands that I'm not trying to sound like a foaming out the mouth guns on every corner nut job. I'm just stating the real facts about firearms. Yes they do kill people and animals, I'm not denying that. All I'm trying to say that this media blitz and fear mongering over semi-automatic rifles is total BS because they only account for a small number of deaths each year and more so a lot are just ordinary hunting rifles.
You're not trying, you're actually doing a really good job of it. *L* :P
I never saw any story unless it's came out later that the mom was a doomsday prepper. She was just a mom with a troubled son. She enjoyed going to the shooting range and I thought the reason she had the guns was bc she was scared of her son? Anyway, beyond that. Before anything can be decided, there has to be determined what is an "assault weapon". It's too vague and deer rifles are just as serious/powerful as an assault rifle. So then what?

How about tax the hell out of bullets?? Make those suckers expensive. As Chris Rock said "If bullets cost $5000 each, there would be no innocent bystanders killed"

As for the comment on alcohol killing people...that's bc they do it to themselves. These children didn't kill themselves. Their little bodies were filled with dozens DOZENS of bullets b/c of a sick person who had a magazine clip that shouldn't have been availble for purchase in the first place.

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Old 01-18-2013, 02:12 PM   #23
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Nancy Lanza doomsday prepper: http://www.examiner.com/article/was-...ockpiling-guns She also stock piled food and water. Honestly if I was in her situation and living with a kid that is mentally unstable I would have my guns locked up in a rented locker at the range or in a high end home safe.

They should keep the original accepted definition of an assault rifle at "any select fire weapon with at least one fully automatic mode", what the actually military uses. These Bushmaster rifles and other AR and AK platform rifles that are limited to semi-automatic mode, that is one bullet per pull of the trigger, should be known as tactical '.xy' caliber rifle. There '.xy' is the caliber. In fact all assault rifles and tactical rifles are really just modified hunting rifles. They fire the same cartridges. The only difference is the stock, pistol grip and the furniture. Some do add or alter the feeding mechanism (magazine type and size).

This is a great discussion that so far hasn't turned into hate fest, enemy generating, attack thread like so many threads have turned into. Good job everyone!
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:11 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
Watch out with that number. Out of the 32,163 gun deaths in the US in 2011 only 11,101 were homicides. 19,766 of those were suicides and the remainder were accidents, self defense and undetermined.
You're pretending this makes a difference? Oh yeah, someone was killed via accident as opposed to homicide. Really? You're splitting this hair?

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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
As you can see 2/3 of the gun deaths were suicide related. If you were to hypothetically remove all guns from the US for a year there would still be a high suicide rate. Guns are just more convenient for suicide.
What should that imply? We should make every effort to maintain personal killing efficiency? BAH!

Sum? You're trying to slice a number that can't be: dead by a gun is dead by a gun.

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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
A minor inconvenience to one group, if you are referring to people with certain disabilities, is blocking their second amendment rights which isn't fair and isn't legal.
No. A minor inconvenience to the American whole is both fair, legal, and does NOT impair the 2A in support of less designed killing machines in the hands of those who might cause harm.

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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
You can narrow down which group people belong in by better background checks, better mental health reporting and care. It will be a slow process but eventually we will begin to bring down the number of people who are not stable enough to posses a firearm.
Precisely.

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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
We can't let the media and the politicians cause us to live in constant fear.
Well, that's what Republican radicals and the NRA do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
Right now they have a lot of people believing that there's a bad guy with a gun around every corner waiting to shoot you and all your friends while you are enjoying a cup of coffee at sidewalk cafe.
Such occurs with some regularity.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:20 PM   #25
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Toolbox,
I most certainly did not take your very enlightening and educational posts in any negative way nor did I misunderstand what you were saying. The information included in your posts opened my eyes to things I had not even considered before and for that I thank you!!
The reason I sort of went off on a rant was because I had just watched a tivo'ed episode of Piers Morgan about gun reform and the after effects of Sandy Hook. One of his guests, a bleach blonde, hooker looking woman who resembled FOX anchors (I can't call them 'news' anchors as their reporting consists of nothing more than fear mongering) was screaming about an Obama led, tyranical government focused solely on stripping away not only guns and rifles but every American's right to possess arms. Her interpretation of the facts was so distorted that it deeply bothered me to the point that I just had to fast forward through the parts she was on...which was hard to do as she kept talking over others who had valid points to offer. It was so hard to watch as the episode was a town hall type program whose audience included family members of those who had been killed in the Sandy Hook and Aurora mass murders.
These are the types of people, Alex Jones and LaPierre come to mind as well, who do not need to be representing the pro gun movement. These foaming at the mouth degenerates are so disgusting. I understand being passionate about a subject you believe in, but when they resort to that type of shouting of factless nonsense, nothing of value is derived from their input whatsoever. Those are the people I was referencing in my post...definately not you!!
What angers me as well is pointing out the fact that Chicago, a city with the strictest gun control laws in the nation, has the highest number of gun related deaths. They are so quick to point out that the people who are being killed there are black gang members and others residing in the Southside of the city who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Their non spoken reaction to this mind numbing fact is "well, they are only black gangbangers so who really gives a crap". It is as though black on black crime has no relevance in this discussion. Having lived in Chicago for a few years recently, I am all too familiar with the crimes that go on in that city. But to focus only on the skin color of the victims of gun violence is just unacceptable...it is morally reprehensible!
So my point was that there is no justifiable reason to try to classify the deaths of any specific group of people when discussing any viable solution to this escalating problem.
Every American life is one that is worth standing up for when it comes to this issue. We have to get to a point in this debate where we discuss solutions instead of merely pointing out facts which, while serving some importance in the discussion, should not dominate the conversation.
Put aside Second Amendment, the numbers and the statistics, what is or isn't an assault rifle and which lives are of importance. Let's just hope that the powers that be can see the root of the problem and go from there to find solutions that we all can live with.

And one other issue that is deeply troubling to me is the NRA's recently released video questioning whether Sasha and Malia's lives are more important than that of Charlotte, Daniel, Olivia, Josephine, Dylan, Madeline, Catherine, Chase and Jesse, Ana, James, Grace, Emilie, Jack and Noah, Caroline, Jessica, Avielle, Benjamin and Allison.

Just how disgusting is that message?
OUTRAGEOUS!!

...OK off to take a couple of Xanax and watch some mindless reality TV...
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:34 AM   #26
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Hey guys and gals. I'm approving the posts up to this point but I'm heading out of town for the weekend so I'll be back to debate this further on Monday, Enjoy the weekend!
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:24 PM   #27
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:51 AM   #28
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that's telling them toolbox
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Old 01-21-2013, 05:38 AM   #29
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Don't forget about the Wounded Knee where there are about 250 people died along with women and children. Military guns were responsible for killing our ancestors. This was terrible tragedy. I will never forget them. I would rather have the government ban the military guns like the "assault" rifle. I was shocked at Toolbox saying that hunters use "assault" rifle all the time when hunting out for games.

No way to have firearms like the "assault" rifle or any other dangerous guns like Saturday night. No one want to get shot. Geeze. **sad**
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Old 01-21-2013, 02:41 PM   #30
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History repeats itself if we wait long enough.

I cannot imagine any Native person or mixed-blood Native person being for any type of government control, period.

Criminals are criminal and it doesn't matter what you ban, they are going to get it and do it anyway... So, that is just another excuse for "control."

Educated or not, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see when people are divided, more confusion is in the camp and that forms weakness... Government itself poses all these political agendas to get the people (democrat, republican, or whatever else) at each other, causing turmoil and weakness, then they come in and do what they want anyway.

A game of the government and we are it's puppets... Been the same story throughout history and time. Look at our reservations (any of them), that is a prime example; do we like those living conditions?

That is the result of government control (interference)... It's all just another way, another step in taking away freedom of choice.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:59 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
You're pretending this makes a difference? Oh yeah, someone was killed via accident as opposed to homicide. Really? You're splitting this hair?


What should that imply? We should make every effort to maintain personal killing efficiency? BAH!

Sum? You're trying to slice a number that can't be: dead by a gun is dead by a gun.
Yes I am splitting the hair but only to show that even though the rate of gun deaths is high most were self inflicted. The point in breaking down the numbers is to show that gun deaths due to malicious intent (murder etc) were only a 1/3. Most of the gun deaths under that category are criminal on criminal violence and while the loss of human life is sad I can't really feel sympathy for the criminals involved because they understood the risks of breaking the law and the dangers involved in what they were doing. Here most of the criminal on criminal violence is drug and related. I do feel some sympathy for their families and loved ones though.


No. A minor inconvenience to the American whole is both fair, legal, and does NOT impair the 2A in support of less designed killing machines in the hands of those who might cause harm.


Quote:
Precisely.
Gun control can be done without banning rifles based on furniture and ergonomic features. The most I would be willing to concede on a rifle like that might be a smaller magazines. Even then that is pointless because if history tells us anything it's that the bill will be drafted to grandfather in items that people currently own, which in the case of higher capacity magazines that number is in the millions.

Quote:
Well, that's what Republican radicals and the NRA do.
I'm not denying they don't have an agenda either. They too are acting as if there are criminals lurking around every corner ready to kill everyone with a gun. The only difference is that their solution to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Numerous cases where a good guy with a concealed carry permit stopped a bad guy with a gun have happened.

Quote:
Such occurs with some regularity.
If you live in Palestine.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:48 AM   #32
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Don't forget about the Wounded Knee where there are about 250 people died along with women and children. Military guns were responsible for killing our ancestors. This was terrible tragedy. I will never forget them. I would rather have the government ban the military guns like the "assault" rifle. I was shocked at Toolbox saying that hunters use "assault" rifle all the time when hunting out for games.

No way to have firearms like the "assault" rifle or any other dangerous guns like Saturday night. No one want to get shot. Geeze. **sad**
The firearms the troops used back then were nothing more than ordinary hunting rifles with a minor modification or two.

As for the remark on hunting, there is no need to be shocked because rifles like the AR-15 are becoming increasingly popular for hunting small game. The .223 round that most consumer AR-15 rifles fire is a "Varmint Round", as was it's original design. In fact the .223 was such a bad round to use in battle that they had to make some improvements to it for it to be practical for military use - thus was born the 5.56NATO. 5.56 is the military round not the .223. Again this shows that what people are using are not military rifles because the military, at least to my knowledge, generally doesn't use the .223 as the M16 is designed for the higher pressure and power of the 5.56. I admit that I could be wrong on that statement as I never in the military.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:44 PM   #33
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Saw this on Facebook, posting it here, these are not my words:


---------
Interesting take and one you don't hear much. . . . . .
Read this eloquent and profound letter and pay close attention to the last paragraph of the letter....


"The Gun Is Civilization" by Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)


Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force.

If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force.

Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion.
Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force.
You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations.
These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a armed mugger to do his job.
That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury.
This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.

People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst.
The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter.
It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

It removes force from the equation... and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret.)

So the greatest civilization is one where all citizens are equally armed and can only be persuaded, never forced.

-----------
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:00 PM   #34
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Right on wardancer

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Originally Posted by wardancer View Post
.“Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.”
~Plato


I'd rather have a loaded weapon in my hand than a cop on the phone !
Bad people do know how to work around
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:33 PM   #35
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So the greatest civilization is one where all citizens are equally armed and can only be persuaded, never forced.
Which implies a civilization without guns.
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:33 PM   #36
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Deserving of it's own post.

Another reason why banning rifles based on some cosmetic characteristics is also bull poop is that it blocks access to the second amendment for those who require the ergonomics afforded by features such as adjustable, telescoping stocks and pistol grips.

For instance, I personally prefer the comfort of being able to adjust the stock on my rifle and the comfort of it's pistol grip. The reason is that I have a metal plate in my right arm which to an extent limits my ability to properly use, with comfort, standard rifle stock lengths and the angle which I have to twist my wrist to get my finger on the trigger. Thats a big deal because if, God forbid, I ever need to use it in an emergency it would take me much longer to line the shot up and the accuracy of which would be decreased because I can only hold my wrist in that position for a short period of time. Accuracy in a home or urban defense situation is critical as to prevent collateral damage. At the range I can use a standard gun BUT thats because they require us to be at a table so the gun is resting on a tripod or blocks of some kind and I have all the time I want to line up the shot. I do get nice spreads with the old Russian Mosin Nagant at 100yds (the range max).

Another point on ergonomics. There are a lot of soldiers returning home from the conflicts in the middle east who have injuries to the hands and or arms that put them in the same bucket as not being able to use rifles equipped with the standard stock and trigger position. Who is anyone to tell a injured solider returning home from battle with an injured arm or missing finger or two, lost or damaged defending our arses, that he or she can't have access to firearms with ergonomic features that allow them access to the second amendment and access to firearms that they can use to protect their homes and families as well as hunt? I dare any of those anti-gun, scared of the world, statist people to walk up to a soldier in the above situation and say that they don't have the right to a gun that fits their disabilities - it won't end well for the person that does.

Each step towards diminishing the second amendment is another step to communism or totalitarianism. History has proven it over and over again.
Im with you on the pistol grip. If you've had any neck or back surgery or problems, or shoulder problems, that pistol grip is necessary to shoot with control. If they ban it, people will just shoot not from the shoulder with the standard stock, only less accurately and safely. Stupid stuff again. And it attacks our most vulnerable people, people with injuries, the elderly, and disabilities, who are the least likely to go around shooting up people.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:31 PM   #37
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Quote:
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Which implies a civilization without guns.
Anything can be a weapon, so armed can mean anything, it also can mean that everyone is in the same physical condition, that there are no weak, elderly, children, or disabled.

Obviously that does not exist.

It also means that there would be no bears, alligators, mountain lions, or other predators that kill people.

My new nails keep messing me up, speaking of weapons.
I think we should always be able to take our country back should we get a REAL dictator or group of tyrants. As long as the people are a threat, we will get good government.

I live in a rural area, I would like to move to the mountains, I would need, not want, but need a weapon. I cannot pull a bow nor use a shoulder stock.
Most elderly, disabled, and nowadays children are on some kind of psych medicine or medicine that is classified that way. Usually it is for pain or hyperactivity. So these people could be viewed as a threat. If a doc doesn't like you and reports in your record that you are depressed or otherwise mental, you would be surprised how many people unknowingly have such statements in their records from their friendly doctors, or suspicions of drug or alcohol abuse. Alot of times they give a mental health icd-9 code to collect on a visit where there is not a diagnosis they want to give for legal reasons. The patient doesn't know. I worked in a doctors office many times, I know. They might as well outlaw them. And this could be used to otherwise take away rights and privileges from these people, like being put on no-fly list. The same will go for domestic abuse charges, people who have restraining orders against them for whatever reason, maybe just a messy divorce. This is changing the definition of criminality and is discriminatory and unconstitutional.

There is no other way they can go deeper than they already are in background checks except to do this. This is the next step. And its not the doctors fault, they had no idea that these records would later come in on this issue. And many of them dont care.

What we will end up with is only the rich having guns, as they will be the only ones who can afford to legally defend themselves against any bogus stuff in medical records or to get expert witnesses to defend their rights and refute any diagnosis.

Most of the people who commit these crimes either don't have a mental health record, were wrongly put on bad psychiatric medicine, which there is no discussion of--should the columbine shooters have been on psych meds as children? No, we know and have known that this is bad, but the docs keep prescribing.

Evil exists, it always will. People do product tampering and all kinds of horrible stuff. To improve it we need to become more compassionate, bullying is a common theme, and reach out, as isolation is a common theme, make health care private and accessible, and create an economy and environment where people don't feel oppressed by power-trippers and where they can afford to live.

Some people are just sick, many of them are described by others as pillars of the community or extremely likeable and good people. So much for human accuracy in judgment of others. It usually only exposes prejudice of the judger, often based on superficial things like skin color and gender.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:54 PM   #38
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It usually only exposes prejudice of the judger, often based on superficial things like skin color and gender.
Or spiritual blindness
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:33 AM   #39
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It is not good when individuals own guns for malicious deeds - when people turn crazy or are crazy and own guns - crazy meaning hereby getting easily bad tempered and have no feelings for responsebility. I keep neutral on this subject concerning the freedom for individuals owning weapons or if it should be restricted. Freedom is one thing - restrictions another thing.

The Seal cover? Really?

Anyway, without guns, people would just use axes

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Old 01-26-2013, 01:04 AM   #40
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The Seal cover? Really?

Anyway, without guns, people would just use axes
I would use gas....





Yes, I made a fart joke.
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