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Old 03-25-2014, 09:34 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighsalute View Post
i feel sad for christian indians....its the ultimate form of stockholm syndrome
I feel sorry for abused, broke, out of gas, drunken, drug addict, foster kid indians..... forget about religion

For me...I read the bible cause it gives me time to sit down and think about whats right and wrong, and hopefully do the right thing.

Better than being drunk.
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:59 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gilisi View Post
I feel sorry for abused, broke, out of gas, drunken, drug addict, foster kid indians..... forget about religion

For me...I read the bible cause it gives me time to sit down and think about whats right and wrong, and hopefully do the right thing.

Better than being drunk.
right and wrong in the bible? that caca aint even of this hemisphere much less my people

if i want to sell a daughter into slavery, bang my brothers wife when he dies, ethnic cleanse someone and not spare babies, or just plain beat my ol lady maybe i will look to the bible for guidance

but i LIKE shellfish

and i keep my right hand pretty busy when my ol lady aint around....i'd sure hate to chop it off

right and wrong.....who needs the bible when you got ELDERS?
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Old 03-28-2014, 12:38 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighsalute View Post
right and wrong in the bible? that caca aint even of this hemisphere much less my people

if i want to sell a daughter into slavery, bang my brothers wife when he dies, ethnic cleanse someone and not spare babies, or just plain beat my ol lady maybe i will look to the bible for guidance

but i LIKE shellfish

and i keep my right hand pretty busy when my ol lady aint around....i'd sure hate to chop it off

right and wrong.....who needs the bible when you got ELDERS?
Sounds like you agree with the fellow that started this thread.

I could site passage and verse that says it's ok to eat shellfish, and that nobody is going to hell for keeping their right hand busy... LOL

The ultimate form of Stockholm Syndrome? The same could be argued for Indians who speak english, drive cars, and wear cowboy hats.

Anyhow I'm gonna go find me a meeting, like the ones Josiah was talking about.
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Old 04-13-2014, 05:44 AM   #24
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Just want to point out that the people who came over to our lands were the pioneers or pilgrims, even Columbus were not very friendly to our people. Columbus abused them and just wanted to come to look for riches like Gold or other ores. Not only that we just happened to be minorities while the Whites have privileges which we don't have the right to have privileges. Both Whites and the Natives are not equal just like the Blacks. The Whites always were Superior over us trying to controled and abused us every way they wanted to get what they want like a child in a Candy store. The Whites take advantages of that.

I was born deaf and had to go to the mainstream schools. I could not use ASL (American Sign Language) because they forbade my using the gestures which I communicated with other deaf children. It was mostly oral method only. We had to suffered so much abuse when we are not allowed to do what we are comfortable with. Same with Native children who were abused for speaking their tongues (Native languages (different tongues). We were forced to speak English (for me, I could not pronounce properly in speaking English). When I was in the hearing classroom, I could not understand what the hearing students, even the hearing teachers said. I got lost in not knowing what they were saying about the subjects or topics. I had to read a book in each classroom but still I miss everything they said and my grades are poor. That is why I wanted so bad to go to the Deaf school where they have sign language like ASL.

As for the religion, yeah, we were forced to become Catholics whether we like it or not. I became a Catholic when I was a baby being baptized. For years, I struggled with the bible which I don't like what the Catholic or any other white religions that they brought over from Europe. The Whites were wrong to make us be what they want us to be like them. For me, being deaf, they don't understand what deafness is like but they forced us to be like the hearing people. So we had to put up with their craps.

I am trying to stand up for my rights as a person, both deaf and NDN. I would rather use the word "Native" instead of "Indian" because the word "Indian" were from India. That is what Columbus thought we were from India. Ha!
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Old 04-14-2014, 04:32 PM   #25
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I can't believe oralism hasn't died. You'd think it would have gone the way of Bell's hard wired telephone. But I guess the cochlear implant has made it fashionable again.

I'm not a parent, so maybe I don't understand the fear of the hurt your child will suffer as a result of the isolation induced by"speaking" only a minority language. (And I know from my own failure, ASL -- not signed English -- is dang hard for native English speakers to learn.) But, I don't understand how people can willingly inflict the developmental damage that is caused by absent or insufficient language exposure during the first critical years of life. There is mounting evidence that without early full language exposure brain development is altered.

Sorry, ranting.... Spent too much time listening to sign language interpreter friend rail against oralism and the suppression of deaf arts, literature and culture.

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Old 04-16-2014, 01:55 AM   #26
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The Way of Christianity was *******ized by the extremists

It is sad that Christianity has such a bloody history. But what many people fail to see is that the "founder of Christianity," Jesus, was totally about love and acceptance. He was a radical who dined with sinners and touched the so-called untouchables.
When the laws of God (the Divine, or whatever Name you choose to call It), come into human minds, they are already limited by what is in the heart and mind of that human. So many atrocities have been committed in the name of Christianity. Jesus, himself, would have cried, and yelled, "repent!!"
I suggest you look into the teachings of Jesus, not the Church. Let go of whatever people tell you and get what you can from the Source: there you will understand the truth and meaning that is far beyond most limited, human, understanding.
There are people who spend their lives following those teachings and practicing what they ask of us. These are the Christians who truly find the peace and light within, and who do not practice the barbarism. They are the ones who pray and act in the way of love, faith, charity, good deeds. I also ask that you learn about the new Pope, Francis. He is a TRUE CHRISTIAN, and he is working to demonstrate to the world what it means to follow Jesus. Pope John Paul, in a formal address, asked for forgiveness of those atrocities, recognizing just how wrong they were and apologized for all the pain those acts caused.

As for those Indigenous people who are Christian, only they can answer why they are and what, if anything, they get out of it. In the eyes of God, all cultures and true religions (the Way of the People is one of those ways) are His children. Live well, live honestly, live and walk in beauty, be a steward, a caretaker of the earth and her inhabitants, and you are living rightly, whatever you call yourself.

In addition, I would say that the Europeans who came here and took our children by force and killed millions of the People already here, just wanted another excuse to obliterate us and our culture because of selfishness, short-sightedness and ignorance. Believe me, what goes around comes around, and they are getting their "rewards" for their detestable acts.

hopiwmn





Quote:
Originally Posted by maxxsym View Post
Before I post my question, I need to give some background information about myself:

I was born in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada to immigrants parents of the Uyghur minority who live primarily in PRC-occupied Doğu Türkestan, or as it is known officially, "Uyghur Autonomous Region of Xinjiang". Which is fancy way of saying my parents immigrated from Xinjiang province, People's Republic of China. If you're not familiar with Uyghurs, we are a Turkic people who originate in the Altay Mountains that are now located in Mongolia. We are linguistically and ethnically related to the Turkish people (people from Turkey), Uzbeks, Azeris, Kyrgyz, Kazakh, Sakha, Yakut, Chuvash, Tatars and dozen or so smaller Turkic people's. We are also distantly related to Koreans and Manchus as well as the various indigenous people's of the far North like Aleuts, Inuk and Inuit. Uyghurs are also overwhelmingly Muslim, like most Turkic people's, and as Uyghurs, my family and I are also Muslim.

Six years ago I met my wife at work. She is Chinese, but her mother and father divorced when she was quite small and her father remarried a Soto-Cree woman who became my wife's step-mother. Although my wife's father had passed away a number of years before I met her, my wife remained close with her step-family, including her step-grandmother.

After being introduced to her step-family, they all took a liking to me, including her step-grandmother. Her SG, however, is a fundamentalist Christian who, upon learning that I was Muslim, tried everything she could to get my wife to break up with me. She told my wife that I would beat her and lock her in the house all day and force her to wear a burka if we were to get married. Essentially, without knowing anything about my level of religiosity, her SG tried to make me out of be Mullha Omar of the Taliban.

Here's the thing, though: her SG was, as a child, sexually an physically abused by clergy in a Residential School. She even testified at the Truth and Reconcilliation Commission on Residential Schools set up by the Canadian government a few years ago.

So here's my question: while my wife's step-grandmother is obviously an extreme example, why is it so common to find aboriginals in North America, especially Canada, self-describe as "Christians", sport crosses, even go to church? Christianity is literally the White-Man's religion and the primary reason for the physical and cultural genocides perpetrated against North American native people's by white colonists. Christianity is the reason for all the lies, broken treaties, thefts, rapes, murders, cultural degradation, sexual abuse, families torn apart. It is singularly the origin of every injustice done to natives in the "New World".

So, why so many native Christians?
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Old 04-16-2014, 03:55 PM   #27
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yep you definately are a victim of stockholm syndrome also hopi

it's ok...i wont pretend i wasnt either

but you do know WHY you are christian though dont you? its probably because many of our parents and community are.....nothing more

and it wasnt by choice a few generations ago they were stripped of everything and molded into christians in boarding schools.....a few generations before that they were either forced to get with the program (christianity) or possibly face the other alternative....BRUTAL DEATH!!

colonial mindset is "i borrowed the jew god and his super-jew son, adopted it into my own version that suits me when i need it regardless of accuracy, he is MY god, so therefore i proclaim him YOUR god too!"

that pretty much sums it up.....oh....and on a side note, for indian protestants who follow the king james edit of the holy bible and are proud of it.....remember that your precious king james cheered the american holocaust on and supported the slaughter and enslavement.....how ya feel now stockholm syndrome victims???

we pueblos have many religious differences....but we also have alot of similarities hopiwmn.......its all about who you respect more.....european colonists? jewish storytellers? or your own ancestors and homelands?

sorry to engage in this stupid conversation in such a direct way.....but the truth is THERE ARE STUPID INDIANS......and some made their way to powwows.com

im not mad at ya......im SAD for you all
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Old 04-17-2014, 12:57 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighsalute View Post
yep you definately are a victim of stockholm syndrome also hopi

it's ok...i wont pretend i wasnt either

but you do know WHY you are christian though dont you? its probably because many of our parents and community are.....nothing more

and it wasnt by choice a few generations ago they were stripped of everything and molded into christians in boarding schools.....a few generations before that they were either forced to get with the program (christianity) or possibly face the other alternative....BRUTAL DEATH!!

colonial mindset is "i borrowed the jew god and his super-jew son, adopted it into my own version that suits me when i need it regardless of accuracy, he is MY god, so therefore i proclaim him YOUR god too!"

that pretty much sums it up.....oh....and on a side note, for indian protestants who follow the king james edit of the holy bible and are proud of it.....remember that your precious king james cheered the american holocaust on and supported the slaughter and enslavement.....how ya feel now stockholm syndrome victims???

we pueblos have many religious differences....but we also have alot of similarities hopiwmn.......its all about who you respect more.....european colonists? jewish storytellers? or your own ancestors and homelands?

sorry to engage in this stupid conversation in such a direct way.....but the truth is THERE ARE STUPID INDIANS......and some made their way to powwows.com

im not mad at ya......im SAD for you all


I like your style @milehighsalute this thread has been on my mind alot. For me, for my own oral traditions, I LIKE to use this same bible that white men brought here, to show THEM, and their followers how hypocritical they are.

I don't know any Taos Pueblos as friends, but I was raised among the Mexican/ post mission exposure tribes and I grew up with a close Hopi fullblood. I think the Apache Geronimo, was just as holy as the pope could ever be.... I have quoted one of the great Cherokee leaders, Corn Tassel in another thread.... To me, and my elder, He was just as righteous, if not more so than most christians I know today, and he was not Christian, nor should he have been. In fact I agree with you that you should NOT embrace christianity. I have read your posts, and I can guess at your age. If I grew up when you did, I would be the SAME.

I have met a person in this Forum who is an elder to me now, more than any Christian pastor and he is not christian, nor do I think he should be.

What I am saying is I maintain, MANY Indians knew the spirit of the god of the bible before it ever came here.

My blood elder said to me one time "All religion in this world is like a great mountain. The closer to the top we all climb, the closer together we come."

This kind of talk Pizzes off a lot of crusty church white folk, and even surprisingly folk of other/brown races, but that makes me happy.

I would rather not speak of the bible ever, and hang out with folk like you, than use words too often and try to be like the pope.
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Old 04-17-2014, 05:49 PM   #29
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Besides, it can't be stockholm syndrome if the end result is the original hostage takers get taken hostage.

I'm dumb, but I ain't stupid LOL
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Old 04-18-2014, 10:32 PM   #30
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anger and ignorance don't mix

[
It's really amazing: you know absolutely nothing about me, my background, or my reasons for what I do, and yet you begin your response to my post as if you do.
If you want to remain angry at the abuses, so be it. You have no right to push your anger or beliefs upon me. That's no better than what you are claiming was done to our people.

I see no reason to discuss my reasons for anything with you. When you can meet me with an open mind and heart, then, perhaps, we could "talk." 'Til then, keep your anger and ignorance, and take it somewhere else.

This site is for everyone, and I refuse to let you or anyone else tell me where or where not I belong.

Hopiwmn


QUOTE=milehighsalute;1596884]yep you definately are a victim of stockholm syndrome also hopi

it's ok...i wont pretend i wasnt either

but you do know WHY you are christian though dont you? its probably because many of our parents and community are.....nothing more

and it wasnt by choice a few generations ago they were stripped of everything and molded into christians in boarding schools.....a few generations before that they were either forced to get with the program (christianity) or possibly face the other alternative....BRUTAL DEATH!!

colonial mindset is "i borrowed the jew god and his super-jew son, adopted it into my own version that suits me when i need it regardless of accuracy, he is MY god, so therefore i proclaim him YOUR god too!"

that pretty much sums it up.....oh....and on a side note, for indian protestants who follow the king james edit of the holy bible and are proud of it.....remember that your precious king james cheered the american holocaust on and supported the slaughter and enslavement.....how ya feel now stockholm syndrome victims???

we pueblos have many religious differences....but we also have alot of similarities hopiwmn.......its all about who you respect more.....european colonists? jewish storytellers? or your own ancestors and homelands?

sorry to engage in this stupid conversation in such a direct way.....but the truth is THERE ARE STUPID INDIANS......and some made their way to powwows.com

im not mad at ya......im SAD for you all[/QUOTE]
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Old 04-19-2014, 12:39 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopiwmn View Post
[
it's really amazing: You know absolutely nothing about me, my background, or my reasons for what i do, and yet you begin your response to my post as if you do.
If you want to remain angry at the abuses, so be it. You have no right to push your anger or beliefs upon me. That's no better than what you are claiming was done to our people.

I see no reason to discuss my reasons for anything with you. When you can meet me with an open mind and heart, then, perhaps, we could "talk." 'til then, keep your anger and ignorance, and take it somewhere else.

This site is for everyone, and i refuse to let you or anyone else tell me where or where not i belong.

Hopiwmn


quote=milehighsalute;1596884]yep you definately are a victim of stockholm syndrome also hopi

it's ok...i wont pretend i wasnt either

but you do know why you are christian though dont you? Its probably because many of our parents and community are.....nothing more

and it wasnt by choice a few generations ago they were stripped of everything and molded into christians in boarding schools.....a few generations before that they were either forced to get with the program (christianity) or possibly face the other alternative....brutal death!!

Colonial mindset is "i borrowed the jew god and his super-jew son, adopted it into my own version that suits me when i need it regardless of accuracy, he is my god, so therefore i proclaim him your god too!"

that pretty much sums it up.....oh....and on a side note, for indian protestants who follow the king james edit of the holy bible and are proud of it.....remember that your precious king james cheered the american holocaust on and supported the slaughter and enslavement.....how ya feel now stockholm syndrome victims???

We pueblos have many religious differences....but we also have alot of similarities hopiwmn.......its all about who you respect more.....european colonists? Jewish storytellers? Or your own ancestors and homelands?

Sorry to engage in this stupid conversation in such a direct way.....but the truth is there are stupid indians......and some made their way to powwows.com

im not mad at ya......im sad for you all
[/quote]
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Old 04-19-2014, 12:50 AM   #32
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@milehighsalute is right. You are taking his post personally, and he hurt your feelings probably using the word 'stupid' but you clearly didn't pay attention to what he wrote. Everything he wrote is right about the religion, about King James...

With all due respect, because you are NDN, you should be the one acting out your religion... @hopiwmn

He should be angry, the bible says "be angry...yet....."

He is less ignorant than you, you have just demonstrated this in your response.
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Old 04-23-2014, 06:52 AM   #33
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there i go makin enemies again lol.....even among my own pueblo peeps

im not that smart.....i just have a way with words that inflame others, im a cunning linguist

but my genius is not in my words but in the REACTION of others....i managed to pizz off a total stranger and get a christian indian to defend my heathen views................thats what the subject of religion does....it brings out the absolute WORST in people hahaha
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Old 04-23-2014, 11:33 AM   #34
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there i go makin enemies again lol.....even among my own pueblo peeps

im not that smart.....i just have a way with words that inflame others, im a cunning linguist

but my genius is not in my words but in the REACTION of others....i managed to pizz off a total stranger and get a christian indian to defend my heathen views................thats what the subject of religion does....it brings out the absolute WORST in people hahaha
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Old 04-23-2014, 04:58 PM   #35
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This thread is extremely interesting to me. I am currently researching and writing a paper on the history of the church in Native America. Anyone have some good reading recommendations?
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Old 04-24-2014, 01:37 PM   #36
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This thread is extremely interesting to me. I am currently researching and writing a paper on the history of the church in Native America. Anyone have some good reading recommendations?
the holy bible and the book of mormon
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Old 04-25-2014, 04:42 AM   #37
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the holy bible and the book of mormon
REAL FUNNY @milehighsalute.
I was hoping for several good reads from a native perspective on the issue. I'd love to find good factual info with history and the native experience.
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Old 04-25-2014, 09:38 PM   #38
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REAL FUNNY @milehighsalute.
I was hoping for several good reads from a native perspective on the issue. I'd love to find good factual info with history and the native experience.
try bury my heart at wounded knee
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Old 04-26-2014, 10:34 AM   #39
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Solitare, one can not research the affect of European religion on First Nations without accounting for the contribution of religious orders in residential schools both in Canada and the US. I would suggest you have a look at the plethora of literature on these schools. There are several First Nations scholars that are prolific writers on the subject of colonization through religion. Try Brant, Dickason, LaRoque, Johnson, Maracle, Paul, Montour-Angus, Turpell, Baptiste as a start.
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Old 04-28-2014, 03:10 PM   #40
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try bury my heart at wounded knee
Thank you @milehighsalute. I have read the book several times. It's a good read indeed.


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Solitare, one can not research the affect of European religion on First Nations without accounting for the contribution of religious orders in residential schools both in Canada and the US. I would suggest you have a look at the plethora of literature on these schools. There are several First Nations scholars that are prolific writers on the subject of colonization through religion. Try Brant, Dickason, LaRoque, Johnson, Maracle, Paul, Montour-Angus, Turpell, Baptiste as a start.
@yaahl. Thank you so much for the recommendations. I most likely would have made the mistake of limiting my research to only America and not included those areas you suggested. I will check out these authors and expand my research.Blessings.
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