[Galaxygayle]

I found your comment rude and judgmental.... Lots of drink white people ..I see them more often ! Break someones spirit it is not so easy to heal after...

[Galaxygayle]

Originally Posted by Spiritflight

In Christianity God leaves people the choice which way they want to follow. To do right or wrong - all the bad things are done by those who abused the christian teachings to do bad. They chose to do it.

Nobody ever said, there has to be just good things to be written in the Bible. The Bible is just an old religious book in which good aspects and bad things are written.

To my point of view is, the top option is to maintain freedom which way one would want to go, either good or bad and if one chooses bad ways, he'd have to face the consequences life itself would teach him.

So some choose to abuse that freedom for their own advantage and the disadvantage for others and to my understanding Jesus Christ just pointed out to be kind and loving to each other as it's for the best for all people.

The choice really is.. follow me ( The Christian God) and choose me... or I will put you in hell ? Hmm ?? Doesn't seem like much of a choice to me ! What if I am a good person and live right and do good to others..and do not believe in the Christian version of God but believe in the Creator..do I end up in hell ?

[Spiritflight]

Originally Posted by Galaxygayle

The choice really is.. follow me ( The Christian God) and choose me... or I will put you in hell ? Hmm ?? Doesn't seem like much of a choice to me ! What if I am a good person and live right and do good to others..and do not believe in the Christian version of God but believe in the Creator..do I end up in hell ?

I think it's not menat literally, it's meant in this way, God likes people who do right and those who are not believing in Christian versions but are doing right are following God's laws anyway.

To my understanding it could have been said in a more understandable way, I see it like this, God says - for instance, do not do any harm to others (I suppose selfdefence is okay) - so if you live peacefully and help others if you can, then you live in peace (heaven) or else, if you like to purposely do wrong you'll have to face the consequences (you'd live in hell) as those who you would harm may have others who'd harm you back. Also it says somewhere God is a God for the living not for the dead. Simply said. You'll only face hell on earth for as long as you live when you keep doing harm, as the consequences aren't likely to make you happy.

[Galaxygayle]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by milehighsalute

right and wrong in the bible? that caca aint even of this hemisphere much less my people

if i want to sell a daughter into slavery, bang my brothers wife when he dies, ethnic cleanse someone and not spare babies, or just plain beat my ol lady maybe i will look to the bible for guidance

but i LIKE shellfish

and i keep my right hand pretty busy when my ol lady aint around....i'd sure hate to chop it off

right and wrong.....who needs the bible when you got ELDERS?

I just wanted to applaud you for speaking up as you did in your comment ! You are like me in many ways and just say it plainly and no beating around the bush way ! I agree totally that the bible is the soul contributor to most of the violence in this world and history. It definitely was the OT God who influenced and even ordered regularly the annihilation of a group of people for being different. These Christians and Government who did this to the NA people were only doing what their God has always told them to do throughout the OT bible...murder ! I am non Native American..my niece and nephew are though and my boyfriend who 100% is now my ex..he chose the Christian religion over me as I walked away from it because of what happened to his people ! I thought he would be happy that I am on his peoples side and speaking up...but in stead he walked away from me ? But I am on a mission to speak out against this religion and its evils now and nothing can stop me ! I am even more pumped up to do this since this same religion destroyed my 5 year relationship with my man !
Do you still believe in a Creator ( Great spirit) like your ancestors did ? I want to prey for my man to open his eyes and come out if this wicked religion and even come back to me who loves him...I want to prey to the Creator that his own ancestors worshiped and maybe even if his ancestors can hear me from the spirit world they can help him also....What do you think..I am asking because I don't know what else to do an feel helpless ? Just because the OT God is evil or fake doesn't mean there is no Creator or Great Spirit ...

[Galaxygayle]

Originally Posted by gilisi

I feel sorry for abused, broke, out of gas, drunken, drug addict, foster kid indians..... forget about religion

For me...I read the bible cause it gives me time to sit down and think about whats right and wrong, and hopefully do the right thing.

Better than being drunk.

The Native Americans you are insulting are that way because of Christianity ! Funny how Christians drive them to this stuff and become lost and messed up and then point the finger at them and insult them afterwards ? By the sounds of your comment and how ride and hurtful it really is.. you don't sound very so called Christian to me !!! Anyone can do the right things without the bible! Looking at history this very bible encouraged violence and blood shed, rape, murder, infanticide, abortion ,the mistreatment of women, racism, discrimination, and wars after war, greed and yet you talk like it teaches how to be good and do the right thing....hmm ? I am an ex- Christian and I know my bible NT and OT...maybe you need to read it again ?

[milehighsalute]

Originally Posted by Galaxygayle

The Native Americans you are insulting are that way because of Christianity ! Funny how Christians drive them to this stuff and become lost and messed up and then point the finger at them and insult them afterwards ? By the sounds of your comment and how ride and hurtful it really is.. you don't sound very so called Christian to me !!! Anyone can do the right things without the bible! Looking at history this very bible encouraged violence and blood shed, rape, murder, infanticide, abortion ,the mistreatment of women, racism, discrimination, and wars after war, greed and yet you talk like it teaches how to be good and do the right thing....hmm ? I am an ex- Christian and I know my bible NT and OT...maybe you need to read it again ?

haha i also disagree with gilisi.....but i like him

but if you keep reading his posts he is also in total agreement with us heathen anti-christians, which leads me to believe that he likes playing devil's advocate at times

and i wouldnt confine buttholism to just christians but to all abrahamic religions......judea, isslam AND christianity....all 3 of them worship the same god....all 3 of them are theological supremists that thrived and still thrive on colonization and conversion

[Galaxygayle]

Originally Posted by Spiritflight

I think it's not menat literally, it's meant in this way, God likes people who do right and those who are not believing in Christian versions but are doing right are following God's laws anyway.

To my understanding it could have been said in a more understandable way, I see it like this, God says - for instance, do not do any harm to others (I suppose selfdefence is okay) - so if you live peacefully and help others if you can, then you live in peace (heaven) or else, if you like to purposely do wrong you'll have to face the consequences (you'd live in hell) as those who you would harm may have others who'd harm you back. Also it says somewhere God is a God for the living not for the dead. Simply said. You'll only face hell on earth for as long as you live when you keep doing harm, as the consequences aren't likely to make you happy.

Thank you for sharing that with me !! I personally don't believe in the Christian/bible version of God the Creator any longer...it is just too mixed up and confusing a version of God. It is like putting God in a box or something. But I agree with how you live now will determine your afterlife ! Only in the residential school the kids were taught by the Christian churches that all their ancestors are in hell etc...I know they are NOT in hell !
If they..like any of us.. lived a decent life and good to others....we will be in a good place after also ! Thanks again !!

[gilisi]

Originally Posted by Galaxygayle

Thank you for sharing that with me !! I personally don't believe in the Christian/bible version of God the Creator any longer...it is just too mixed up and confusing a version of God. It is like putting God in a box or something. But I agree with how you live now will determine your afterlife ! Only in the residential school the kids were taught by the Christian churches that all their ancestors are in hell etc...I know they are NOT in hell !
If they..like any of us.. lived a decent life and good to others....we will be in a good place after also ! Thanks again !!

The bible I read actually agrees with you, and as far as that post you reprimanded me about... The Indian I was talking about was myself.

People put God in a box, in fact it clearly tells people NOT to condemn other people to hell when they don't even understand their beliefs. "Don't judge lest you be judged, and with the measure you use to judge others you yourself will be judged"

Regardless of what you believe, for me I demonstrated my desire to live a better life by getting into the bible, and it helped.

Mind you, I was also feeling a bit defensive cause my friend called my beliefs "caca" LOL

I am just now beginning to learn what it really means for me to be NDN, about my inheritance.

[solitare]

[QUOTE=Galaxygayle;1598286]

I just wanted to applaud you for speaking up as you did in your comment ! You are like me in many ways and just say it plainly and no beating around the bush way ! I agree totally that the bible is the soul contributor to most of the violence in this world and history. It definitely was the OT God who influenced and even ordered regularly the annihilation of a group of people for being different. These Christians and Government who did this to the NA people were only doing what their God has always told them to do throughout the OT bible...murder ! I am non Native American..my niece and nephew are though and my boyfriend who 100% is now my ex..he chose the Christian religion over me as I walked away from it because of what happened to his people ! I thought he would be happy that I am on his peoples side and speaking up...but in stead he walked away from me ? But I am on a mission to speak out against this religion and its evils now and nothing can stop me ! I am even more pumped up to do this since this same religion destroyed my 5 year relationship with my man !
Do you still believe in a Creator ( Great spirit) like your ancestors did ? I want to prey for my man to open his eyes and come out if this wicked religion and even come back to me who loves him...I want to prey to the Creator that his own ancestors worshiped and maybe even if his ancestors can hear me from the spirit world they can help him also....What do you think..I am asking because I don't know what else to do an feel helpless ? Just because the OT God is evil or fake doesn't mean there is no Creator or Great Spirit ...

My heart does hurt for the pain that people who profess themselves as Christians have inflicted upon other people. It is atrocious evil to use the name of God to engage in trauma against anyone. With that said.....it also saddens me to hear someone call my own beloved faith as "wicked" In fact it rather stung my soul as I felt judged as a Christian.
I am aware of the past traumas created by a church who sought to evangelize and I am also aware of the current attempts to apologize for past atrocities and to reconcile as well as bring awareness to ensure those atrocities never happen again. Perhaps you could join in some of those committees and help them to find their way toward greater awareness?
I thought the bible was confusing too.Just as I found my children's traditional beliefs confusing as well. But I learned through study that it is confusing when it is foreign. Once I learned how to study properly then it came into a greater context for me to understand. And now I see no discrepancy. But rest assured with proper study I came away with a beautiful faith that looks nothing like what most portray Christianity to be.
So this is the place I have come to in regard to this issue. It leaves me with questions.
Just as many non reverent, disrespectful, greed filled people have culturally raped the American Indian, I wonder if it is possible that those same types may have culturally raped Christianity for their own gain too.

I want to ask this next question to look at a different perspective. Is it possible that through the lens of generational trauma that many Native people reject Christianity (I know that's a resounding YES! and I would too if I were you) but doing so could be equal to someone pointing a finger at James Arthur Ray and calling Native traditions and beliefs wicked because of his wannabe acts?

My statements here are meant to reflect my own thoughts as I am trying to process much on this subject. I raise these questions for myself as I am trying to learn and grow.

Any thoughts?

[texascanuck]

When Jesus gave what Christians call the "Great Commission" to share the "Good News" to the ends of the earth, I don't think he ever meant for people to go to other places and force conversions, like so many people did in the past . I think people abused it in the past, which is really sad to me (as a Christian). I'd argue that the people who did those things were either not even Christian in their heart, or they were just so terribly misguided by their own cultural prejudices that they became blind to their own sin. As a Christian today, I read about things that Christians did in the past, and I'm horrified and wonder to myself how so many people could be so blinded that what they were doing was wrong. I think many Christians today (myself included) feel genuinely ashamed for injustices committed by their predecessors. We believe that Jesus was the one who was without sin, but sadly not ourselves.

So, as I Christian, all I can say to everyone who feels wronged by Christians in the past is a big "I'm Sorry!" :(. I hope we'll be wiser, kinder, and more Christ-like in the future.

[texascanuck]

I didn't mention in my last post, but I think that in order to understand the Bible properly, it's important to distinguish that the Old Testament was given specifically for the nation of Israel, and the New Testament was given for Christians. It's still in the Bible because Christians believe it is inspired (though not prescriptive to us), and because it paints a complete picture of redemptive history from creation to the end of the world. However, if you want to learn about Christian beliefs and how Christians ought to live and treat others, go to the New Testament.

That is why we would see it as wrong to go into other lands and drive people out. Because we aren't supposed to! That was a one-time thing involving Israel, but it is not applicable today.

Not saying this to suggest anyone should embrace Christianity, but I think it's an important distinction to make in case someone wants to learn more about Christian beliefs.

[Joe's Dad]

Originally Posted by texascanuck

I didn't mention in my last post, but I think that in order to understand the Bible properly, it's important to distinguish that the Old Testament was given specifically for the nation of Israel, and the New Testament was given for Christians. It's still in the Bible because Christians believe it is inspired (though not prescriptive to us), and because it paints a complete picture of redemptive history from creation to the end of the world. However, if you want to learn about Christian beliefs and how Christians ought to live and treat others, go to the New Testament.

That is why we would see it as wrong to go into other lands and drive people out. Because we aren't supposed to! That was a one-time thing involving Israel, but it is not applicable today.

Not saying this to suggest anyone should embrace Christianity, but I think it's an important distinction to make in case someone wants to learn more about Christian beliefs.

If the Christian belief is your soul goes to heaven when you die, if you've lived a God-fearing life...

when you cross to the other side, where does the spirit go of a non-Christian Indian?

[texascanuck]

Our belief is that, because of sin, no one (regardless of race, culture, etc.) is able to stand before the Creator (who is holy and therefore cannot tolerate sin in his presence) on judgment day. But God was merciful and sent Christ to die in our place as a substitute for our sin (in other words, when God judges us, he sees Christ and what he did in place of our sin). We believe that this was given as a gift, and the Bible promises that for anyone who is willing to trust in Christ, rather than themselves, to receive forgiveness of sin, that they will be saved. So, we do not believe salvation is achieved on a merit of being a good person or doing good works; but rather realizing that we cannot save ourselves by doing good works and turning to Christ instead.

That sums up what we believe in a nutshell :).

What about you guys...what do you believe about sin and salvation

[Josiah]

Originally Posted by texascanuck

Our belief is that, because of sin, no one (regardless of race, culture, etc.) is able to stand before the Creator Europeanholy and therefore cannot tolerate sin in his presence) on judgment day. But God was merciful and sent Christ to die in our place as a substitute for our sin (in other words, when God judges us, he sees Christ and what he did in place of our sin). We believe that this was given as a gift, and the Bible promises that for anyone who is willing to trust in Christ, rather than themselves, to receive forgiveness of sin, that they will be saved. So, we do not believe salvation is achieved on a merit of being a good person or doing good works; but rather realizing that we cannot save ourselves by doing good works and turning to Christ instead.

That sums up what we believe in a nutshell :).

What about you guys...what do you believe about sin and salvation

Sin is a Christian Concept.

Natives have so many beliefs and traditions literally hundreds, And yet we had to be saved! The Christian God is such a jealous god and now the religion has splintered into so many different sects.
I often wonder if it had been Muslems who brought European Religion to our shore what the difference would have been??
Or of the Buddhist faith...



LoL
So narrow minded can only be one, such a jealous god

[Joe's Dad]

Originally Posted by Joe's Dad

If the Christian belief is your soul goes to heaven when you die, if you've lived a God-fearing life...

when you cross to the other side, where does the spirit go of a non-Christian Indian?

Originally Posted by texascanuck

Our belief is that, because of sin, no one (regardless of race, culture, etc.) is able to stand before the Creator (who is holy and therefore cannot tolerate sin in his presence) on judgment day. But God was merciful and sent Christ to die in our place as a substitute for our sin (in other words, when God judges us, he sees Christ and what he did in place of our sin). We believe that this was given as a gift, and the Bible promises that for anyone who is willing to trust in Christ, rather than themselves, to receive forgiveness of sin, that they will be saved. So, we do not believe salvation is achieved on a merit of being a good person or doing good works; but rather realizing that we cannot save ourselves by doing good works and turning to Christ instead.

That sums up what we believe in a nutshell :).

What about you guys...what do you believe about sin and salvation

I was asking what happens to the spirit of the Indian who is not a Christian, not how one can get to heaven.

I ask it in a good way with no malice. It should be read the same way.

[texascanuck]

Thanks for your reply, Josiah :).

Definitely won't argue with you there (about the Judeo-Christian God being jealous). He even says that he is a jealous God when he gives the ten commandments to the Israelites in the Old Testament. We'd say that since he's the maker of the whole universe, he has the right to be jealous of having his creatures worship him alone.

Since sin is a Judeo-Christian concept, I'm wanting to know what you guys believe about the afterlife? Do you believe there is some type of heaven, or place you go after you die? Does everyone go there, or only those who lived good lives? Sorry for so many questions (and please let me know if my questions are annoying or offensive...I definitely don't intend them to be).

Cheers :)

Melissa

PS...I see you're from Oklahoma...are you a Sooner fan? That's where I went to school :)

[Josiah]

Originally Posted by texascanuck

Thanks for your reply, Josiah :).

Definitely won't argue with you there (about the Judeo-Christian God being jealous). He even says that he is a jealous God when he gives the ten commandments to the Israelites in the Old Testament. We'd say that since he's the maker of the whole universe, he has the right to be jealous of having his creatures worship him alone.

Since sin is a Judeo-Christian concept, I'm wanting to know what you guys believe about the afterlife? Do you believe there is some type of heaven, or place you go after you die? Does everyone go there, or only those who lived good lives? Sorry for so many questions (and please let me know if my questions are annoying or offensive...I definitely don't intend them to be).

Cheers :)

Melissa

PS...I see you're from Oklahoma...are you a Sooner fan? That's where I went to school :)

I often wonder what the old ones thought of the concept of an afterlife, or praying to somebody they could not see.
Or giving up all their customs, traditions, language for a god that only rewarded them when they died by living for eternity with those that brought this to them: disease, thievery, adultery, murder, and cruelty to all those that did not convert.
It must have been maddness

[Mogs]

Thanks for a very interesting and thought provoking topic.

I’d like to share some of my thoughts, (and experience).
I was brought up within the Christian faith but until the birth of my daughter, I can say that I was not Christian. My wife had a hard time at the birth and there was a very real possibility that we would lose the child and also that I would lose my wife. It was at this time that I prayed, and for the first time ever I really meant it and there was not anything selfish about it. I heard no voices or anything like that, but suddenly I knew that everything would be alright. I’ve not experienced anything like it since. I became a true Christian that day.

I’ve given it a lot of thought (my daughter is now in her early 20’s). I’ve been asked, “Why are you a Christian” and my answer is above, but I’ve also been asked to think about many of the questions posed in this thread.

I believe that Jesus Christ in human form is only one aspect of God. A god humans cannot ever fully understand. Jesus was one of two people to return from the dead, there may be more I don’t know about. By returning Jesus shows that (s)he/it is part of god and that there is more to life than this current existence.

Jesus also says that that no-one can enter heaven unless though him. This is a tough one as this would imply that all persons before him and all those since that do not know him via ignorance aren’t in or can’t enter heaven. I’ve come to the conclusion that these words are not to be taken literally but refer to his teachings and striving to follow them. Since Jesus teaching were not new and have been floating around in some form as long as humans have existed, as such there is no-one that has not experienced these teachings from some source. Thus doing right (or at least trying to) will entitle anyone to enter heaven.

I also have come to believe that the god of the old testament as written is a human corruption over many years, hence the intervention by Jesus (a new covenant, making the old testament obsolete). Other interventions have occurred since, thus Islam and the Mormans, whether these interventions have been a success or failure, real or fiction, I don’t know.

I therefore have come to the conclusion these is only one God and each and everyone of us will face him upon our deaths. Our own personal Judgement Day, where we will be judged using rules some of which we created ourselves and have imposed upon others. I believe that God is a just god, any punishments will be fair and therefore hell is a relatively empty place. A just god would sentence no-one to an infinite punishment. I can think of many individuals who may have long sentences but not forever. Atheists are in for a surprise, a good one.

The questions I’m currently struggling with are “Does time exist in heaven?” and “Are we all currently in hell”.

K

[wardancer]

Originally Posted by Mogs

Thanks for a very interesting and thought provoking topic.

I’d like to share some of my thoughts, (and experience).
I was brought up within the Christian faith but until the birth of my daughter, I can say that I was not Christian. My wife had a hard time at the birth and there was a very real possibility that we would lose the child and also that I would lose my wife. It was at this time that I prayed, and for the first time ever I really meant it and there was not anything selfish about it.

Some of us pray that way every day !

I heard no voices or anything like that, but suddenly I knew that everything would be alright. I’ve not experienced anything like it since. I became a true Christian that day.

How so ? The act of prayer to a higher power ? I pray every day and I am NOT a christian.

I’ve given it a lot of thought (my daughter is now in her early 20’s). I’ve been asked, “Why are you a Christian” and my answer is above, but I’ve also been asked to think about many of the questions posed in this thread.

I believe that Jesus Christ in human form is only one aspect of God. A god humans cannot ever fully understand. Jesus was one of two people to return from the dead, there may be more I don’t know about. By returning Jesus shows that (s)he/it is part of god and that there is more to life than this current existence.

And you know this how ? Oh yeah , you read it in a book that has been written down by men , who translated it from scrolls found in a cave , in a foreign country , centuries ago.

Jesus also says that that no-one can enter heaven unless though him.

That's one of those believe me or else threats. I love that about christianity ! Believe us or you'll never go to heaven , or believe us or we'll kill you ! And how do you know this ? Oh yeah , that story book. Oh , which translation , which version , because they don't all say the exact same thing !

This is a tough one as this would imply that all persons before him and all those since that do not know him via ignorance aren’t in or can’t enter heaven. I’ve come to the conclusion that these words are not to be taken literally but refer to his teachings and striving to follow them. Since Jesus teaching were not new and have been floating around in some form as long as humans have existed, as such there is no-one that has not experienced these teachings from some source. Thus doing right (or at least trying to) will entitle anyone to enter heaven.

I also have come to believe that the god of the old testament as written is a human corruption over many years, hence the intervention by Jesus (a new covenant, making the old testament obsolete). Other interventions have occurred since, thus Islam and the Mormans, whether these interventions have been a success or failure, real or fiction, I don’t know.

I therefore have come to the conclusion these is only one God and each and everyone of us will face him upon our deaths. Our own personal Judgement Day, where we will be judged using rules some of which we created ourselves and have imposed upon others. I believe that God is a just god, any punishments will be fair and therefore hell is a relatively empty place. A just god would sentence no-one to an infinite punishment. I can think of many individuals who may have long sentences but not forever. Atheists are in for a surprise, a good one.

The questions I’m currently struggling with are “Does time exist in heaven?” and “Are we all currently in hell”.

K

I grew up as a so called "christian". The white side of my family were Methodists. My Grandfather was a lay minister , my uncle a deacon , my G Grandfather a horseback preacher , my grandfather's brother was a bishop in the Methodist church , and his children and grand children are all ministers and such. I got into it for a while , I studied , I learned all I could about "being a good christian". Mostly a bunch of hypocrites. Some good people ,but for the most part they are just there to impress others with their religious zeal !They claim their right to religious supremacy so they can look down on everyone else , because if you are not a christian , you're not as good !

I returned to the ndn side of my family and started learning. Still learning ! I speak to the Creator several times a day. We're on good terms. He takes good care of me and I'm thankful for that.I do my best not to be a hypocrite , to keep my word , treat others fairly. I struggle with being judgmental, but I try. I have sat with relatives at their end and they told my they see others waiting for them. Waiting to help them on their journey. Others that had already passed years before.I don't pretend to know anything about the future. I don't know if we really "go" anywhere. Irregardless of that I intend to live my life as well as I can and hope that when my life here ends , my journey will continue elsewhere.

[wardancer]

My wife's cousin was talking the other day and said " I love you even though you aren't a christian", so my wife turned it right around and said " cuz , I love you even though you are a christian!" LOL