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Old 10-31-2014, 02:58 AM   #61
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If the consensus among christians is that all non christians belong in hell;

If american christian conservatives represent christianity;

if christianity is in line with the carlisle school philosophy of "kill the indian save the man";

and most importantly, if consensus among christians is that @wardancer prays to a different Creator than I do;

I am not a christian, nor have I ever been.
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Old 10-31-2014, 10:03 PM   #62
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For those interested , there are an over abundance of Bible versions/translations. Here's a link to a list of some .

List of English Bible translations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

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Old 11-06-2014, 08:16 AM   #63
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Christianity is literally the White-Man's religion
Christianity first happened on the soil of what's Israel now. Back in history the disciples of Jesus Christ spread out into the world, the romans spread out further north to Europe and people did have their gods and deities but got christianised too. Witch hunt in the dark ages in Europe elsewhere got done in the name of the Bible and once again imo the holy book got abused by those fanatics. Anyway, are the people of the Land of Israel considered white men? Was Jesus Christ white, pink or dark?

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Old 11-06-2014, 12:22 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Spiritflight View Post
Anyway, are the people of the Land of Israel consideres white men? Was Jesus Christ white, pink or dark?
O.K. At risk of scorn from the religiously religious (lol) I'm gonna make this statement. Right , wrong , or otherwise this is my opinion! I believe that Jesus was 1 of several messengers. I believe him to be a person with dark tan skin. I believe that there are many religions that have originated from the area he's from. I believe it's all about the power to control the masses. I believe that is what drives all organized religion ! Power , control , and money. I think they started out sincere and realized the ability to control large groups of people was a means to exalt themselves. I believe God/Creator/or whatever name you call him/her/it does exist. I pray and I believe The Creator listens.

I believe all that and THAT and $1.19 will get you a large coffee at a Quicktrip in Kansas City !
__________________
I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 11-07-2014, 01:59 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by gilisi View Post
If the consensus among christians is that all non christians belong in hell;

If american christian conservatives represent christianity;

if christianity is in line with the carlisle school philosophy of "kill the indian save the man";

and most importantly, if consensus among christians is that @wardancer prays to a different Creator than I do;

I am not a christian, nor have I ever been.

well I am a Christian.

I don't devide up Christian belief between political parties or descriptions such as conservative or liberal or otherwise.Because neither of those descriptions can possibly contain the full and or acurate description of our Creator.

I don't see the Carlisle school of philosophy anywhere in the churches that I attend nor do I ascribe to such evil crap.

The fact that people believe that Christians believe that all non believers go to hell can be ascribed to the fact that this may be the loudest voice the world hears but the fact is that there are many different scholarly thoeries as to the issue of "Salvation" vs."Grace" and spiritual life after physical death.AND an important note on this issue is that the most reputable Seminaries teach them all. Not just one theory.

and as a Christian I do believe that if wardancer is praying to the Creator (in his own language, his own way) then he prays to the same God as I.
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Old 11-08-2014, 01:54 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by solitare View Post
well I am a Christian.

I don't devide up Christian belief between political parties or descriptions such as conservative or liberal or otherwise.Because neither of those descriptions can possibly contain the full and or acurate description of our Creator.

I don't see the Carlisle school of philosophy anywhere in the churches that I attend nor do I ascribe to such evil crap.

The fact that people believe that Christians believe that all non believers go to hell can be ascribed to the fact that this may be the loudest voice the world hears but the fact is that there are many different scholarly thoeries as to the issue of "Salvation" vs."Grace" and spiritual life after physical death.AND an important note on this issue is that the most reputable Seminaries teach them all. Not just one theory.

and as a Christian I do believe that if wardancer is praying to the Creator (in his own language, his own way) then he prays to the same God as I.
Is this the difference between 'spirituality' and 'religion'?
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Old 11-12-2014, 01:56 AM   #67
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[QUOTE=Joe's Dad;1611432]Is this the difference between 'spirituality' and 'religion'?[/QUOTE

Oh no! Now we need to define what is spirituality and what is religion! LOL.
Looking those terms up I discovered a wide array of definitions.
If we go by any of these definitions it looks like they both go together. Which I think makes perfect sense. As a CHRISTIAN though I do hold very specific beliefs and seek to pursue a specific relious practice but spirituality can not in any way divert from religious practice lest I run the risk of empty ritual.

Define Spirituality:

dictionary.search.yahoo.com
n. noun

The state, quality, or fact of being spiritual.

A religious belief or manner of pursuing a religious life.

The clergy.

Search results

Spirituality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality Cached
Definition . There is no single, widely-agreed definition of spirituality. Surveys of the definition of the term, as used in scholarly research, show a ...
Spirituality - Definition and More from the Free Merriam ...
Spirituality - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary Cached
Full Definition of SPIRITUALITY 1 : something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such 2 : clergy 3 : sensitivity or attachment to ...
Definition of Spirituality - Living Words of Wisdom
Definition of Spirituality Cached
The definition of spirituality is that which relates to or affects the human spirit.


Religious Definition

dictionary.search.yahoo.com
adj. adjective

Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.

Of, concerned with, or teaching religion.

a religious text.

Extremely scrupulous or conscientious.

religious devotion to duty.

n. noun

A member of a monastic order, especially a nun or monk.

Search results

Religious - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster ...
Religious - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary Cached
Full Definition of RELIGIOUS 1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:56 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by solitare View Post

The fact that people believe that Christians believe that all non believers go to hell can be ascribed to the fact that this may be the loudest voice the world hears
This is where I take issue... It's not the loud voices that bother me, it's the resounding silence when such questions are asked such as the one @Joe's Dad asked.

Having experienced that same aloof shrug of the shoulders in reference to the eternal fate of my own ancestors far more often than not... in Christian circles, I wonder;

If there are so many righteous Christians, where have they been?
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Old 11-12-2014, 01:02 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by gilisi View Post
This is where I take issue... It's not the loud voices that bother me, it's the resounding silence when such questions are asked such as the one @Joe's Dad asked.
In my opinion, the silence you observe is the individual asking themselves the question and performing a mental, as well as a spiritual check of the answer that they possess.

The militant is the vocal one that you’re not bothered by. The quiet ones are quantifying their response before making a statement – only they’re going to be wary of the person asking the question as to his or her real intentions.

What are you really looking for? In general. Specifically. And how will the answer help you in your spiritual development? Or do you just want to stir the pot.
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Old 11-12-2014, 01:31 PM   #70
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__________________
I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 11-12-2014, 09:57 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by alumphfres View Post
What are you really looking for? In general. Specifically. And how will the answer help you in your spiritual development? Or do you just want to stir the pot.
So these are the only possible motives I can have for taking issue with solitare's statement?

Take it how you want to take it...

What am I really looking for?

I'm looking for a winning lotto ticket.

I'm not looking for anything in that response. I am asserting my impression that so many Christians complain when they aren't liked, or when they feel they are misunderstood, but the consensus of the majority defines the group.

Besides, if the christian theories that defend Indians exist solely in "reputable seminaries" and they are only legitimized because they are "scholarly" where does that leave the rest of us?

In my unschooled opinion, @milehighsalute actually has a point when he uses the term Stockholm syndrome in regards to native Christianity. Look at our (native) history.

I blame Obama. LOL, J/K
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Last edited by gilisi; 11-13-2014 at 03:47 AM..
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Old 11-12-2014, 11:27 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by alumphfres View Post
What are you really looking for? In general. Specifically. And how will the answer help you in your spiritual development? Or do you just want to stir the pot.

I am wondering how any self respecting native , knowing history , embracing their culture , could possibly embrace modern christianity ? And I'm not trying to be mean , I'm just askin'. As native people we have our own ceremonies , and own beliefs.

" How will the answer help you in your spiritual development ?"

Well , I don't know that it will. I'm at an age that is pretty set in my ways , but with that said , my ways have changed a lot since my growing up immersed in christianity.I guess now I'm just trying to figure out how fellow C/As (and other natives) that claim to be christians , can justify those beliefs.

I think this subject stirs its own pot !
__________________
I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 11-13-2014, 02:21 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by alumphfres View Post
In my opinion, the silence you observe is the individual asking themselves the question and performing a mental, as well as a spiritual check of the answer that they possess.

The militant is the vocal one that you’re not bothered by. The quiet ones are quantifying their response before making a statement – only they’re going to be wary of the person asking the question as to his or her real intentions.

What are you really looking for? In general. Specifically. And how will the answer help you in your spiritual development? Or do you just want to stir the pot.
Sometimes the quiet ones are also waiting for the answer from the quiet ones who are warily quantifying their answer.
__________________


Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman
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Old 11-13-2014, 03:55 AM   #74
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This is where I take issue... It's not the loud voices that bother me, it's the resounding silence when such questions are asked such as the one @Joe's Dad asked.

Having experienced that same aloof shrug of the shoulders in reference to the eternal fate of my own ancestors far more often than not... in Christian circles, I wonder;

If there are so many righteous Christians, where have they been?
Good point about the silence. and great questions. But "righteous Christians?" I'm trying to figure out what a righteous Christian is.
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Old 11-13-2014, 04:23 AM   #75
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So these are the only possible motives I can have for taking issue with solitare's statement?

Take it how you want to take it...

What am I really looking for?

I'm looking for a winning lotto ticket.

I'm not looking for anything in that response. I am asserting my impression that so many Christians complain when they aren't liked, or when they feel they are misunderstood, but the consensus of the majority defines the group.

Besides, if the christian theories that defend Indians exist solely in "reputable seminaries" and they are only legitimized because they are "scholarly" where does that leave the rest of us?

In my unschooled opinion, @milehighsalute actually has a point when he uses the term Stockholm syndrome in regards to native Christianity. Look at our (native) history.

I blame Obama. LOL, J/K
Now I am sooooo confused! I had no idea you were taking issue with "my statement." I thought you were taking issue with an issue. lol and that we were having a good discussion.

but now I am curious as to what you mean by this statement. I'm getting a little lost in the thought.

Besides, if the christian theories that defend Indians exist solely in "reputable seminaries" and they are only legitimized because they are "scholarly" where does that leave the rest of us?


I may need to rethink how I am reading it or maybe you could ask another way ?
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Old 11-13-2014, 06:27 AM   #76
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In my opinion, the silence you observe is the individual asking themselves the question and performing a mental, as well as a spiritual check of the answer that they possess.

The militant is the vocal one that you’re not bothered by. The quiet ones are quantifying their response before making a statement – only they’re going to be wary of the person asking the question as to his or her real intentions.
What about my post implies some sort of veiled intention? I'm hoping you don't figure out I'm secretly hatching an evil plan to take over the internet.

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What are you really looking for? In general. Specifically. And how will the answer help you in your spiritual development? Or do you just want to stir the pot.
Why does this have to come to some didactic conclusion? Of all the threads, and all the posts on powwows why does this one in particular merit the old stir the pot accusation?
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Old 11-13-2014, 01:05 PM   #77
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I am wondering how any self respecting native , knowing history , embracing their culture , could possibly embrace modern christianity ? And I'm not trying to be mean , I'm just askin'. As native people we have our own ceremonies , and own beliefs.

" How will the answer help you in your spiritual development ?"

Well , I don't know that it will. I'm at an age that is pretty set in my ways , but with that said , my ways have changed a lot since my growing up immersed in christianity.I guess now I'm just trying to figure out how fellow C/As (and other natives) that claim to be christians , can justify those beliefs.

I think this subject stirs its own pot !
i know exactly what you mean @wardancer. as a little kid, i remember how my cousins always had new toys and new clothes. little did i know that it was because their parents had accepted the offerings from a local church and they were receiving "donations" as gifts to convert over to their form of religion.

my parents were not involved with them and we lived off the land with corn fields, melon patches, squash, horses, cattle and sheep to sustain our livelyhood.

that meant that as an older child, i had to work the fields and take care of the animals on a daily basis and have no time to play with new toys or worry about what i am wearing.

now, i look back and see what christianity was doing to my relatives.
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Old 11-13-2014, 01:25 PM   #78
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Now I am sooooo confused! I had no idea you were taking issue with "my statement." I thought you were taking issue with an issue. lol and that we were having a good discussion.

but now I am curious as to what you mean by this statement. I'm getting a little lost in the thought.

Besides, if the christian theories that defend Indians exist solely in "reputable seminaries" and they are only legitimized because they are "scholarly" where does that leave the rest of us?


I may need to rethink how I am reading it or maybe you could ask another way ?
I mean no disrespect. This thread is a lot to chew on LOL. Don't take it that I was taking issue with YOU. I'm still OK with a good discussion for what it's worth, but these questions have loomed for a long time for a lot of people. How else could my NDN grandad carve ornate carvings of the stations of the cross at a catholic church in Oakland, and yet refer to himself as the 'colonel of hell' when someone tried to preach to him? LOL

Regarding your curiosity:
Although I have respect for scholarly circles, I have never felt scholarly circles or collegiate theologies have come close to understand the NDN or represent his interests when it comes to spirituality. It was a response to your earlier statement.

"The fact that people believe that Christians believe that all non believers go to hell can be ascribed to the fact that this may be the loudest voice the world hears but the fact is that there are many different scholarly thoeries as to the issue of "Salvation" vs."Grace" and spiritual life after physical death.AND an important note on this issue is that the most reputable Seminaries teach them all. Not just one theory."
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Old 11-13-2014, 03:51 PM   #79
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What about my post implies some sort of veiled intention? I'm hoping you don't figure out I'm secretly hatching an evil plan to take over the internet.
Spirituality is personal. It does not fit in a box. ‘One size fits all’ does not apply. Each person has a different relationship with his or her creator. No one is right and no one is wrong.

Only the Obama Administration is working to take over the internet LoL. Only I’m not laughing.


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Why does this have to come to some didactic conclusion? Of all the threads, and all the posts on powwows why does this one in particular merit the old stir the pot accusation?
We’re all looking for the winning lotto ticket to confirm our thoughts or suspicions. Why do you think I visit this forum as well… I don’t have all the answers.
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Old 11-13-2014, 05:35 PM   #80
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I mean no disrespect. This thread is a lot to chew on LOL. Don't take it that I was taking issue with YOU. I'm still OK with a good discussion for what it's worth, but these questions have loomed for a long time for a lot of people. How else could my NDN grandad carve ornate carvings of the stations of the cross at a catholic church in Oakland, and yet refer to himself as the 'colonel of hell' when someone tried to preach to him? LOL

Regarding your curiosity:
Although I have respect for scholarly circles, I have never felt scholarly circles or collegiate theologies have come close to understand the NDN or represent his interests when it comes to spirituality. It was a response to your earlier statement.

"The fact that people believe that Christians believe that all non believers go to hell can be ascribed to the fact that this may be the loudest voice the world hears but the fact is that there are many different scholarly thoeries as to the issue of "Salvation" vs."Grace" and spiritual life after physical death.AND an important note on this issue is that the most reputable Seminaries teach them all. Not just one theory."
O.K. cool I get what you are saying. Thank you for clarifying. This statement helped me to understand better.


Regarding your curiosity:
Although I have respect for scholarly circles, I have never felt scholarly circles or collegiate theologies have come close to understand the NDN or represent his interests when it comes to spirituality. It was a response to your earlier statement.


I do agree whole heartedly . I think it is only very recent that some churches have taken an interest in where they have been wrong with the Native population and are attempting to make amends, as well as steps not to repeat such wounding. I am not advertising, but I know in the church I attend they insist it is Native people who are in control of those ministries to ensure that healing and no more wounding takes place. Listening to those conversations has made it evident to me that this is a huge issue and that there is a great need for this kind of discussion to lead the way toward better ministries that build Native culture and not tear down. It's interesting to me.Especially after listening to the experiences that my own sweetheart has shared with me about church on his reservation. Made me cry for everyone who had forgotten to love their neighbor.
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