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Old 11-13-2014, 08:15 PM   #81
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I don't think any of you get the point I've tried to make or maybe nobody cares. I just can not understand how native people could possibly embrace a religious idea that was forced upon them , beaten into them , killed hundreds of thousands of them.It's the believe our way or else type of thinking. The elite group of so called "christians" from the earliest contact , has done nothing to help our people other than telling us our ways are wrong and we're all heathen savages and we need to change our ways or die ! And then after they did all this , modern christianity says Oh we're sorry about that , now we'll give you a choice as to how you believe in jesus ! Not "if" , but how. I think I have to agree with milehigh as well ! His opinion on this is the only one that truly makes sense !
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care

Last edited by wardancer; 11-14-2014 at 12:09 AM.. Reason: cand spel fer chit
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Old 11-14-2014, 03:07 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by wardancer View Post
I don't think any of you get the point I've tried to make or maybe nobody cares. I just can not understand how native people could possibly embrace a religious idea that was forced upon them , beaten into them , killed hundreds of thousands of them.It's the believe our way or else type of thinking. The elite group of so called "christians" from the earliest contact , has done nothing to help our people other than telling us our ways are wrong and we're all heathen savages and we need to change our ways or die ! And then after they did all this , modern christianity says Oh we're sorry about that , now we'll give you a choice as to how you believe in jesus ! Not "if" , but how. I think I have to agree with milehigh as well ! His opinion on this is the only one that truly makes sense !


And then after they did all this , modern christianity says Oh we're sorry about that , now we'll give you a choice as to how you believe in jesus !

this is definately not what I was trying to say . Let me try again. I am hearing of groups of Clergy who seek to better understand the tragic history of the church and Native peoples. In an attempt to not repeat any more wounding in Jesus name. And to be culturally sensitive and respectful. There are many Native people in the church. Some sensitive Clergy seem to be aware that Native folks can be treated in such a way by congregations as to make a Native person feel they must check their ndn ness at the door. which is just wrong. So there is heavy discussion lately in some churches/denominations as to how the church can better minister to those native people in the church and the communities.

I like it. There will be a time that after I cross over, my own children will come into contact with the church when they also need their cultural practices too, and I won't be there to make sure their needs are met. And I feel better knowing that if my children seek help that they will not be called heathen or denied their ability to express their cultural needs or scorned when they do.And my children have relatives who are traditional and not at all Christian. I like knowing that their traditional relatives will be treated with respect in a culturally sensitive house of worship without pressure to convert.It is a breath of fresh air that I can worship as Christian and hear my daughter ask someone if we can pray for them in the sweat and the Clergy is respectful.At least it's a change. It's a start.

as for your question as to how a Native person could covert to a religion whose church folk have engaged in such atrocity I have no answer. I just don't know. But I do know that for those who engaged in such atrocities, I can't call them Christian as defined by their own scriptures in my opinion. But it's just my opinion.
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Old 11-14-2014, 04:38 AM   #83
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thanks.....and i aint even that smart......im just an azzhat that happens to be right most of the time by accident and/or common sense....

if i ever have a son i will name him hatuey


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Old 11-14-2014, 01:04 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solitare View Post
[B]

So there is heavy discussion lately in some churches/denominations as to how the church can better minister to those native people in the church and the communities.
I guess my next issue would be : Why do those representatives of the church feel they have to minister to native peoples. Are our own beliefs not good enough ? See , that's the thing , after all that has transpired over the years , the church still feels obligated to force themselves upon native peoples. But now a new approach : let's allow them to incorporate some of their beliefs into our christian beliefs.That way we won't seem like the bad guys. When in reality , it's just another way to brainwash our people. I just don't get it !
__________________
I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 11-16-2014, 12:41 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by wardancer View Post
...the church still feels obligated to force themselves upon native peoples.
In my opinion, the white eyes that run the different churches on the various reservations I’ve been to (Oglala, Cheyenne River, Umatilla) don’t force themselves on anyone… They struggle to keep attendance up within their own organizations for fear of losing funding from the ‘mothership.’

Are you referring to Jesuit affiliations or some other cult? Just for my own understanding.
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Old 11-16-2014, 02:07 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by alumphfres View Post
In my opinion, the white eyes that run the different churches on the various reservations I’ve been to (Oglala, Cheyenne River, Umatilla) don’t force themselves on anyone… They struggle to keep attendance up within their own organizations for fear of losing funding from the ‘mothership.’

Are you referring to Jesuit affiliations or some other cult? Just for my own understanding.
They are there....in an area that does not belong to them.

All of the different cults. All of them feel the need to intrude into our areas and "save" us. From what is what I usually ask , when they ask if I've been "saved". Not one has come up with a defensible position.

I guess what has really soured me on so called christianity is that it is a cult and each branch of said cult has it's own degree of so called "faith"! And with that comes different levels of piety. It seems the more righteous one is the "better" they are. And with that , they can only associate with others of their same degree of righteousness ! For example , my own step-daughter and my own daughter. Step-daughter used to sweat and pray our way. Got married to some low life scum that "rescued"her from her mom and I. Then he cheated on her , went to a "christain" marriage counselor.Got them joined up in a cult. Immediately brainwashed her into believing that garbage , within 2 weeks she was baptized into said cult.Now she no longer has a brain and could not make a decision to save her own life....only if the husband says it's alright. Now she can not associate with us because , well , we're non-christians , and therefore bad ! We don't see our grandchildren and the last time we did our granddaughter who was 5 at the time , asked if we had been saved ! I said from what and she had no idea , just that we needed to be saved. That was 3 years ago , and we haven't got to see them since. My daughter , on the other hand , goes to a church sometimes. Just in case she says. She doesn't buy all the crap they spew and we still get to see those kids.None of them question the church doctrine and they see it more as a social club that anything else. I have an older brother also that tries to spew that garbage and I quit associating with him. Yes , I grew up immersed in christianity ,read the bible and studied hard ! I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now and in the process it's left a pretty sour taste in my mouth !
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__________________
I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 11-17-2014, 01:41 AM   #87
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So, why so many native Christians?
Why are the Uighur Muslim? Whatever happened to Tengri/Tanri? You don't follow your original religion either, and for similar reasons.

I don't have anything against any particular religion. It seems to me that many religions have similar teachings.

“None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.”
An-Nawawi's Forty Hadith 13

"Do to others what you want them to do to you. This is the meaning of the law of Moses and the teaching of the prophets."
Matthew 7:12

See? Same idea. In either case, not following this teaching means one is not truly following the example of their teacher. Good Muslims and good Christians have respect for each other's beliefs (even if they disagree) because they would find it hurtful to be disrespected. Religion is often held up as an excuse for doing something, but ultimately, the real cause is greed or fear.
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Old 12-16-2014, 04:56 PM   #88
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This is where I take issue... It's not the loud voices that bother me, it's the resounding silence when such questions are asked such as the one @Joe's Dad asked.

Having experienced that same aloof shrug of the shoulders in reference to the eternal fate of my own ancestors far more often than not... in Christian circles, I wonder;

If there are so many righteous Christians, where have they been?
gilisi. I didn't give my answer with aloofness. Nor did I mean to "shrug" my shoulders to the question that was asked by Joe's dad. "Is this the difference between religion and spirituality?"
I just want to steer clear of giving some pat answer to a heavy question. And quite frankly sometimes I find myself living in mystery when I approach issues of the Creator and Faith and therefore just don't always have the answer to give. I accept that it could take a lifetime to discover these things and I am ok with being a traveler on the journey to explore these issues with the knowledge that I am not God but just a Christian who is sorely in need of the Creator.Not to mention whereas I like to have these conversations and learn, I don't do so in an attempt to "preach" my faith. Your Faith is your Faith, Joe's dad has his faith.. which is not for me to define with my pat answers.
so if you suspected that I gave the answer with a "shrug of my shoulder" then please let me suggest that with internet, tone and context are missing and perhaps to easy to misread meaning. In the future if you suspect that I am being less than respectful then could you please ask me to elaborate in order to clarify? I give you the promise that I will do the same for you as well.
As for the RIGHTEOUS CHRISTIAN comment......I wouldn't want to keep company with one. I'd prefer one with a heavy dose of Humility.
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Old 12-16-2014, 05:50 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wardancer View Post
I guess my next issue would be : Why do those representatives of the church feel they have to minister to native peoples. Are our own beliefs not good enough ? See , that's the thing , after all that has transpired over the years , the church still feels obligated to force themselves upon native peoples. But now a new approach : let's allow them to incorporate some of their beliefs into our christian beliefs.That way we won't seem like the bad guys. When in reality , it's just another way to brainwash our people. I just don't get it !
I don't think cultural awareness is about evangelism. Those are two different issues.
Bottom line is this: If a major life issue took place and your Christian blood relative, during such a sensitive time, was involved with a Clergy person, would you prefer that Clergy person have enough cultural sensitivity to handle your WHOLE family with respect? Including the traditional family members? No one is suggesting they preach or try to covert anyone.
I used the word "minister" to mean lots of things that Clergy may do. Not just preach or convert.

Let me give an example. Let's say your Christian relative is in a bible study and she goes into labor. She is on her way to the hospital and she asks her pastor to start prayers for her and the child. As well as get word to her family. so Clergyperson drives to your home to bring word.
A Clergyperson with no cultural awareness would easily push his or her values and beliefs onto the family.
A Clergyperson with cultural awareness would minister in this situation much differently.Upon going to the familie's home They deliver the message that she requested prayer and leave the family to pray in their own traditional way.
simple. I'd prefer the latter.
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Old 12-16-2014, 07:23 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by solitare View Post
I don't think cultural awareness is about evangelism. Those are two different issues.
Bottom line is this: If a major life issue took place and your Christian blood relative, during such a sensitive time, was involved with a Clergy person, would you prefer that Clergy person have enough cultural sensitivity to handle your WHOLE family with respect? Including the traditional family members? No one is suggesting they preach or try to covert anyone.
I used the word "minister" to mean lots of things that Clergy may do. Not just preach or convert.

Let me give an example. Let's say your Christian relative is in a bible study and she goes into labor. She is on her way to the hospital and she asks her pastor to start prayers for her and the child. As well as get word to her family. so Clergyperson drives to your home to bring word.
A Clergyperson with no cultural awareness would easily push his or her values and beliefs onto the family.
A Clergyperson with cultural awareness would minister in this situation much differently.Upon going to the familie's home They deliver the message that she requested prayer and leave the family to pray in their own traditional way.
simple. I'd prefer the latter.
If they were truly "culturally aware" They would just leave well enough alone.
A definition :
1min·is·ter
noun \ˈmi-nə-stər\

: a person whose job involves leading church services, performing religious ceremonies (such as marriages), and providing spiritual or religious guidance to other people : a member of the clergy in some Protestant churches

A Verb:
a : officiating or assisting the officiant in church worship
b : a clergyman especially of a Protestant communion
3
a : the superior of one of several religious orders —called also minister-general
b : the assistant to the rector or the bursar of a Jesuit house
definitions are courtesy of Webster's dictionary online.

I was raised , surrounded by the "Christian" ministry ! Bishops , Ministers , lay ministers, deacons , and on and on. One thing I can say , is constant , is their belief in God. The church doctrine dictates that they spread the word......and they do so whether we want to hear it or not. Now , I am fairly christian tolerant , up to a point. That being this , you can be a christian and worship and do whatever you think is right , just do not try to convince me that yours is the only way that's right ! I have a daughter who married a non-ndn. She and her family go to a christian church , kids go to sunday school , and they come to our home and it is never mentioned. I have a step-daughter , who just recently decided to be a christian and now they won't even come to our home because we are not christians ! And have decided their children should not see us either !Now it may or may not have had anything to do with our 4 yr. old granddaughter asking me if I had been saved ! I immediately asked her "from what" . Her reply was " I don't know but I'm saved". It's brainwashing pure and simple.I made it clear that that subject should not be discussed at our home. My step-daughter was here discussing something and goes on and on with "well , pastor says this and pastor says that" I said what do you think ? I don't care what pastor thinks , I wanna know what you think....that's when she got mad.She could not make a statement without pastor or her husbands permission ! She is not allowed an opinion. They do just like all christians , they take little snippets from the bible , that fits what they're trying to prove , and leave out before and after because that alters what they're trying to say !
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 12-17-2014, 11:15 AM   #91
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Being saved hm.... through Jesus Christ as he seemed to be the first gentleman who was allowed to openly have a word about gentleness, forgiveness, kindness. In the OT it was more like an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Somewhere in the bible it says God is for the living, not for the dead. So heaven and hell can happen in real life, depending which way you choose, you'll meet your own hell of consequences when you do bad stuff, you can feel heaven when doing good, by having a clean concience. So he was a teacher to tell people not to fear eternal hell in life since he introduced the way of forgiving yourself and other's bad deeds and that you have the chance to start all over living a good life and become a gentle person. But the forgiving part gets abused by those who say, yeah I can continue doing bad, as I receive forgiveness anyway. Well, that was not the intention of Jesus words.
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Question about the shawl..... Andrea Fancy Shawl Dancing 4 06-07-2001 12:08 AM
Mixing religion with native traditional values Majii Archives 27 07-09-2000 11:12 AM

    

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