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Old 08-09-2011, 03:20 PM   #1
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Question about what is appropriate for women?

Question...I was always taught that when you go to a pow wow you dress modestly, women in a long skirt and a modest top with shoulders covered, as if going to ceremony. I dance Aztec (traditional) and even though our regalia are often more revealing, (skirts/dresses with high slits, tank-top type tops/dresses)before and after dancing we are taught to be covered up. More and more I see women in booty shorts with cleavage everywhere or skirts so short that they might as well be shorts. Is this normal? Am I too old fashioned? I'm only 30. Was just looking for other's opinions. I'm not gonna change the way I dress, but was wondering if I'm just way behind on stuff. When bringing friends who aren't familiar with pow wows, I usually tell them what they should wear, but if I'm wrong I'd like to know. FYI I'm in California if that makes a difference.
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Old 08-10-2011, 05:27 PM   #2
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Protocol: Everything should have it's proper time & place. People are getting lax with protocol nowadays.

California: The most casual, mixed-up place to live in. I see people wearing Raiders jerseys, black shorts, and flip-flops to funerals.

Powwow: A traditional tribal gathering. Modesty has been the traditon for many generations.

Amigo: Needs a list of places where Itzkuauhtli has been seeing "women in booty shorts with cleavage everywhere
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Last edited by AmigoKumeyaay; 08-19-2011 at 08:09 PM.. Reason: just funning y'all
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Old 08-15-2011, 06:08 PM   #3
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[QUOTE=AmigoKumeyaay;
Amigo: Needs a list of places where Itzkuauhtli has been seeing "women in booty shorts with cleavage everywhere or skirts so short that they might as well be shorts". They need scolding. at a proper time & place.[/QUOTE]

really amigo? tsk tsk.Their grammas can do that!

All ladies no matter where they are should be modestly dressed where ever they go.(what happened to that teaching?) Am I getting old?
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Old 08-15-2011, 06:35 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by comadre View Post
really amigo? tsk tsk.Their grammas can do that!

All ladies no matter where they are should be modestly dressed where ever they go.(what happened to that teaching?) Am I getting old?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmigoKumeyaay View Post
Amigo: Needs a list of places where Itzkuauhtli has been seeing "women in booty shorts with cleavage everywhere or skirts so short that they might as well be shorts". They need scolding. at a proper time & place.
Amigo just needs the proper "time and place". He has other ideas for "scolding", eh?
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Old 08-15-2011, 06:46 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by comadre View Post
really amigo? tsk tsk.Their grammas can do that!

All ladies no matter where they are should be modestly dressed where ever they go.(what happened to that teaching?) Am I getting old?
Ummm...how about grampas????

TTechno...u a grampa yet? And where are all ur children? Havent seen them on here! hahaahaaaaa
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Old 08-16-2011, 01:23 AM   #6
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Hey now....You know those Grammas would get mean...

Don't add trauma to the drama!



In these tough economic times, I can get them started on a modeling career

A classy photo portfolio from Amigo

Last edited by AmigoKumeyaay; 08-19-2011 at 08:12 PM..
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Old 08-16-2011, 02:32 AM   #7
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Old 08-16-2011, 11:38 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmigoKumeyaay View Post
Hey now....You know those Grammas would get mean...

"cleavage EVERYWHERE" Don't add trauma to the drama!



In these tough economic times, I can get them started on a modeling career

A free photo portfolio from Amigo
Just make sure you check for ID...
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Old 08-17-2011, 07:14 PM   #9
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Just kidding, seriously

Hard for traditions to survive in Tutt-Frutti California

Maybe a few Grammas posted at the powwow entrance would stop that drama

Bouncers!
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Old 08-19-2011, 01:09 PM   #10
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i have been taught to be repectfully dressed dressed. there are some tribes here inthe northeast where women's dresses are one shoulder.

i agree there are some people who are showing WAY TOO MUCH skin and cleavage.
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Old 08-19-2011, 08:34 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Just make sure you check for ID...
C'mon...I have daughters and Lil G-daughters...I'm not crazy, just joking around here.

I live in Calif and see plenty of "New" traditionalism People are forgetting the past, and protocols.

I saw a woman in street clothes (a revealing sun dress) jump into the circle. She was Native, (and dancing on beat), but only got about 8 beats before she was yanked outta there by the elbow by an elder.
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:56 PM   #12
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Soap Box Warning

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmigoKumeyaay View Post
I live in Calif and see plenty of "New" traditionalism People are forgetting the past, and protocols.

I saw a woman in street clothes (a revealing sun dress) jump into the circle. She was Native, (and dancing on beat), but only got about 8 beats before she was yanked outta there by the elbow by an elder.
You are right, We are forgetting our protocols and traditions. We as the parents and grandparents are the gate keepers to the past, we need to step up. And I am dismayed by the Neo-traditionalism I see, what happened have we gotten blinded by computer screens, tv screens and smartphone screens?
I know I am a hard *** on my views of modesty and propriety. But come on lets get real people. I don't expect every woman to meet the ideals of Cheyenne modesty and virtue, but there are limits.
What ever happened to dress modestly, take of your hat for grand entry and honor songs, no taking pictures? I can still remember when people who disregarded these rules wound up with a dance staff through the lens or their film being taken by the dogs soldiers and then being "escorted" out.
Whats next, are we going to have Coors Tour OF Nations Pow-Wow?
Maybe a Budweiser tent and the Jagger Mister girls? Extreme? maybe but maybe we are headed that way as the rules get more and more relaxed.
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:20 PM   #13
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As a spectator, I go to a fair number of pow wows, within my area. Have done so for years. Not sure what the 'standard' is for "dress modestly"..., but, I see flesh, hiked-up skirts.
I have yet to see one (pow wow) where picture taking was prohibited during grand entry, let alone "a staff through the lens or their film being taken".
Also I have never seen anyone "yanked outta there (circle) by an elder".
No doubt, I have been going to the "wrong" pow wows.
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Old 08-23-2011, 07:45 PM   #14
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Its me not you, really this time it is me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack2011 View Post
As a spectator, I go to a fair number of pow wows, within my area. Have done so for years. Not sure what the 'standard' is for "dress modestly"..., but, I see flesh, hiked-up skirts.
I have yet to see one (pow wow) where picture taking was prohibited during grand entry, let alone "a staff through the lens or their film being taken".
Also I have never seen anyone "yanked outta there (circle) by an elder".
No doubt, I have been going to the "wrong" pow wows.
(know I'm on the former, maybe also the later, haha)
Dunno how long or where you have been going.I have seen these things first hand. But to put in perspective its been almost 20 years now (geez I'm getting old). I have seen a guest "escorted" out because they where drunk,I've seen dancers removed or denied permission entry onto the dance grounds due to their dress or behavior. I have seen a womens drum refused admission, because thats just not done. But as I said it been decades since these things where the norm.
I have also seen dancers get charged admission to a Pow Wow! Charged for the privalage to camp and set up at the Pow Wow grounds. Last I checked they where the main draw for the event.
Times have changed so much (not for the better in my opinion), I have a hard time recognizing what is or was considered modest.
I understand we are not static, frozen cultures. The Pow Wow is new, relativly speacking 70-80 years maybe. The Pow Wow drum is new 50-60 years maybe. Womens drum groups 15 years or so that I know of, now we have mixed gender drums. All of it is moving forward at an accelerated rate. Bear with me folks, I am set in my ways. I am still trying to get used to womens drum groups, now we have mixed gender groups.
Is change inevitable..........definalty, do we distrust it, yup. Do we want to cling to the things we know, I sure do. Is change good, can't say its a two edged sword. Without it we wouldn't have the ubiqoutis Pow Wow, the Drum, the dances, the regalia. Nor would we have Pow Wows (for cash and prizes) being considered "ceremonial" and being the largest consumer of eagle feathers and parts.We wouldn't have the cash infusionsions into hosting comunities, nor the inherent troubles that come from the green frog skin, well not them but the want there-off.
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:28 PM   #15
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I don't doubt for a second that those things did/do go on. I haven't seen them personally at any of the pow wows I've attended.

As for pow wows being traditional....there are different views...below is one opinion , from a dancer. Just one man's opinion, to be sure, but no more/no less valid than any other.

For what its worth, I myself don't have a problem with any of this.







I am a Northern Traditional Dancer from Pine Ridge SD. I have danced at pow-wows since the age of 5years. Having danced Fancy and Grass styles and run the White Wolf Singers out of Denver CO, I know a few things about pow-wows.

Pow-wows are NOT I repeat NOT traditional in any way. The modern day pow-wow was formed in Oklahoma after the traders decided that they could bring tourists into their areas by having the people play Indian. Although the dances derive from traditional ceremonies and dress, a person from the 1800s would not recognize any part of a modern pow-wow.

I have seen so much change, I remember seeing what was called a bustle dance. The traditional dancers would remove their eagle feather bustle and place them on the floor and then dance around it! Now when even one Eagle feather drops the pow-wow is stopped and the feather is picked up with more or less ceremony. This ceremony is now (traditional).

I always hear people complain about prize money. The contest is what pow-wows are about today. The things that we love about dances is all the bright colors and lots of dancers, the more the better in fact. If no prize money was offered at the pow-wow the outfits would not be so flashy and fun. (remember the old fluffy bustles of the 60s). Also most of those dancers came from some other city, rez, state, or Country do you think the Jonathan Windyboy, Eli Tail, Terry Fiddler, and others travel all summer with Government checks.

The pow-wow circuit lasts from March to Sept so you can bet that they don't have jobs. Prize money allows everyone to see the best dancers and here the best singers of North America in your home town. Two years ago I met a jingle dress dancer from Alberta at the Oglala Nation Fair in Pine Ridge she said "I have made 22 thousand dollars so far this year we wont go hungry this winter." So in as few words as possible NO CASH NO BIG POW-WOWS.

public invited all drums and dancers welcome. Read your flyers most should have that statement on or near the bottom. I support any dancer that takes the time and effort to make a good outfit and dances with respect, every dancer should feel the same way. The more dancers the better the pow-wow. If a dancer is mistreated for any reason that dancer should leave the arena or arbor and forget about ever attending or supporting that pow-wow committee or group ever again. If there is prejudice or Mixed blood Full blood craziness forget it they are not worth your time. Hang out with your friends meet people and engage in some friendly competition, that is what pow-wows are all about today.

-- David Browneyes [email protected]




Also :



The Powwow Is a Modern Invention
7/21/2010 2:42:11 PM
by Keith Goetzman


Many American Indian tribes across the nation hold powwows that are basically megaconcerts, with tickets sold to the nontribal general public. Visitors often come away from these events thinking that they’ve gotten an authentic glimpse into Indian traditions and spirituality, a perception fueled by some tribes’ marketing. “It is truly an honor to attend a powwow,” states the web page of the Northern Colorado Intertribal Pow-wow Association Inc.—an honor, incidentally, that’s available to anyone with ticket money.

But what exactly is a powwow, and what are its ties to Indian tradition? Ojibwe historian Anton Treuer sets the record straight in the book Ojibwe in Minnesota, which was recently published by the Minnesota Historical Society Press:

Powwow itself is new. It did not exist seventy years ago. It is a pan-Indian combination of Omaha grass dance ceremonies, Dakota war dances, Ojibwe dreams about the jingle dress, and rodeo customs, where dancers who used to parade into army forts in tribal war regalia now parade into the powwow arena in dance regalia for grand entry. There are many types of powwows. But [many powwows] involve singers and dancers competing for money. Participants’ abilities to sing and dance are highly valued, supplanting older cultural ideals of community cohesion, inclusiveness, and respectful generosity. The modern powwow is a welcome, healthy gathering of people from many communities. It is a joyous social event and source of community pride. But it is not a substitute for traditional Ojibwe religion or ways of life.

Treuer points out that powwows have become big business. Leech Lake Reservation in Minnesota spends more than $100,000 for prize money on its Labor Day powwow alone, not to mention the many smaller powwows it presents:

The powwow budget for Leech Lake completely eclipses tribal expenditures on traditional culture and Ojibwe language revitalization. Tribes and tribal people are agents of their own cultural change.

So remember that if you attend a large commercial powwow, you are more likely watching a sort of American Indian Idol than a sacred and ancient ceremony. It may be fun, and entertaining, and spectacular, but it’s probably no more traditional than the fry bread they’re selling at the food stands.

Because Minnesota has been at the epicenter of many Indian sovereignty, treaty rights, and social justice issues, Treuer’s book is essential reading for anyone interested in Indian history. From the fur trade and Ojibwe-Dakota relations right up through ugly public skirmishes over spearfishing and casinos, Ojibwe in Minnesota is a clear, candid, and authoritative overview of a people whose epic history is still unfolding.

Source: Ojibwe in Minnesota
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Old 08-27-2011, 07:49 PM   #16
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Skanty dressing and droppin it like its hot are not things i would personally do.
And yes it is offensive to dance like your in a meat market while in regalia, but this is only my opinion mind you.

Have approached a grandmother or emmcee if see someone i feel is being very skanky or offensive, and then its out of my hands


When venting to someone about this same thing once i was told, "just laugh at them, it will make them self concious and they prolly wont do it again"

If i see unacceptable behavior then i usually just wont attend that event again.
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Old 09-28-2011, 10:40 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by AmigoKumeyaay View Post
Protocol: Everything should have it's proper time & place. People are getting lax with protocol nowadays.

California: The most casual, mixed-up place to live in. I see people wearing Raiders jerseys, black shorts, and flip-flops to funerals.

Powwow: A traditional tribal gathering. Modesty has been the traditon for many generations.

Amigo: Needs a list of places where Itzkuauhtli has been seeing "women in booty shorts with cleavage everywhere
i am not a grandma yet…but when it comes to this subject..yeah, i become a Grandmother. see my eyes scolding you?
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Just kidding, seriously

Hard for traditions to survive in Tutt-Frutti California

Maybe a few Grammas posted at the powwow entrance would stop that drama

Bouncers!
Hey, sounds like a Good idea! let me know how it goes.

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You are right, We are forgetting our protocols and traditions. We as the parents and grandparents are the gate keepers to the past, we need to step up. And I am dismayed by the Neo-traditionalism I see, what happened have we gotten blinded by computer screens, tv screens and smartphone screens?
I know I am a hard *** on my views of modesty and propriety. But come on lets get real people. I don't expect every woman to meet the ideals of Cheyenne modesty and virtue, but there are limits.
What ever happened to dress modestly, take of your hat for grand entry and honor songs, no taking pictures? I can still remember when people who disregarded these rules wound up with a dance staff through the lens or their film being taken by the dogs soldiers and then being "escorted" out.
Whats next, are we going to have Coors Tour OF Nations Pow-Wow?
Maybe a Budweiser tent and the Jagger Mister girls? Extreme? maybe but maybe we are headed that way as the rules get more and more relaxed.
I stand with you on these ideals. I have also seen the same things you have. but yes, it has been a long time since i have gone to powwow.
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(know I'm on the former, maybe also the later, haha)
Dunno how long or where you have been going.I have seen these things first hand. But to put in perspective its been almost 20 years now (geez I'm getting old). I have seen a guest "escorted" out because they where drunk,I've seen dancers removed or denied permission entry onto the dance grounds due to their dress or behavior. I have seen a womens drum refused admission, because thats just not done. But as I said it been decades since these things where the norm.
I have also seen dancers get charged admission to a Pow Wow! Charged for the privalage to camp and set up at the Pow Wow grounds. Last I checked they where the main draw for the event.
Times have changed so much (not for the better in my opinion), I have a hard time recognizing what is or was considered modest.
I understand we are not static, frozen cultures. The Pow Wow is new, relativly speacking 70-80 years maybe. The Pow Wow drum is new 50-60 years maybe. Womens drum groups 15 years or so that I know of, now we have mixed gender drums. All of it is moving forward at an accelerated rate. Bear with me folks, I am set in my ways. I am still trying to get used to womens drum groups, now we have mixed gender groups.
Is change inevitable..........definalty, do we distrust it, yup. Do we want to cling to the things we know, I sure do. Is change good, can't say its a two edged sword. Without it we wouldn't have the ubiqoutis Pow Wow, the Drum, the dances, the regalia. Nor would we have Pow Wows (for cash and prizes) being considered "ceremonial" and being the largest consumer of eagle feathers and parts.We wouldn't have the cash infusionsions into hosting comunities, nor the inherent troubles that come from the green frog skin, well not them but the want there-off.
I have seen so many fast changing ways speeding past my eyes over the last 30 years that i feel worried for the ‘younger’ generations. I have been trying to speak to anyone who might listen to me…but i also wonder if this is the way my mother, and hers and so on felt about the changes they had to live through? all i really understand is that the world as we know it, is coming to The end soon. i say, if you are wise, and i mean anyone reading this, you will learn all you can that it takes to survive without electricity. learn to make your clothes, footwear, fire, dwelling, bedding, tools, weapons, and everything that the ANCIENT ONES had to know, to survive.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:43 PM   #18
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What should women wear?

Well I believe women should dress modestly and if they go into the arens for ANY reason, wear a dress, long skirt, or long pants, and shawl even if they have to borrow one. Just a way of showwng respect. It's not the beach. It's the way I was raised and the way I have raised my kids and grandkids.
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Old 06-05-2012, 05:03 AM   #19
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i am 21. i am an old soul. and i completely agree with you, that is not right.
.
i see it as disrespect to their bodies when WOMEN AND YOUNG WOMEN dress like that.
.
but i also have to agree it is Cali we speak of also lol.
.
i'd just have to say.
keep it old school and respectful.
thoughs women you speak of are just tryna be young and look like they can be in a ying yang twin music video LOL.
so keep doing what you do, give native women a good name.
.
you set the standard.
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:44 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Question...I was always taught that when you go to a pow wow you dress modestly, women in a long skirt and a modest top with shoulders covered, as if going to ceremony. I dance Aztec (traditional) and even though our regalia are often more revealing, (skirts/dresses with high slits, tank-top type tops/dresses)before and after dancing we are taught to be covered up. More and more I see women in booty shorts with cleavage everywhere or skirts so short that they might as well be shorts. Is this normal? Am I too old fashioned? I'm only 30. Was just looking for other's opinions. I'm not gonna change the way I dress, but was wondering if I'm just way behind on stuff. When bringing friends who aren't familiar with pow wows, I usually tell them what they should wear, but if I'm wrong I'd like to know. FYI I'm in California if that makes a difference.
I'm a Aztec dancer as well for many years. But now I live in Montana with my fiance who is Crow. I was always taught to be conservative. Even with our dance regalia more revealing because of all the steps and danza we do, we need to be able to make those steps n not rip our skirts! LOL.. I don't think that matters because we are still seen as regalia, but with the outside dress I can see your point. Maybe I'm a bit old fashioned too.
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